Cesar debate thread

[JackieJack]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

I respect Ceasar and think his methods for training and saving dog's
are unique. He has saved so many dog's, dog's that had no chance for
a loving home. They would have been PTS otherwise, so whatever method he
chose in traning them was fine with me. Who am I to argue the point anyhow.
I am no professional. Everyone has their own opinions, no matter what the
conversation is. You don't have to agree with him but you have to respect
the man for his ability to train dog's that otherwise would have no chance at life.
I have taken many of his techniques and applied them to Buddy. He has
saved my sanity more than once. His techniques work and I am very
pleased with the result. Buddy had a good chance of being the Yorkie
from Hell, really, his personality went from sweet to Alpha when he hit
a year old. What happened to my sweet boy i asked myself? Who is this
little beast? Dog's like this get turned into rescue or the pound because
people don't understand what to do. He saved me and saved Buddy from
being one of those dog's. Today he is sweet, loving and is trained well
and so am I, however his Alpa thought's are always in his head and I
am well aware of it. I totally enjoy his shows and his point's of view..

I also like Victoria but if I had to pick #1 it would be Ceasar.

Exactly what I was going to say! This is a great debate, and I like reading info from both sides of this. We do need to remember that Cesear works with the worst, who otherwise would have lost their home or more than likely been euthanized!!!!

Cesear isn't from America where people treat their pets are part of the family. He learned from an early age that their must be a pack leader. I see so many people who their pets rule them, and then they wonder why they have behavior issues. As much as my animals seem like a part of the family, they are ANIMALS and they don't think like I do! I have learned alot from Cesear and have had great results. I have never watched Victoria so I can't say who I would like better.

There are alot of posts here that I completely agree with!

[Uno baby]

When I first got my lil' guy 2 years ago I discovered "The Dog Whisperer". My mother and I were HOOKED. There will always be some who hate him, and always some that absolutely love him.

I think he is great at what he does, and he has performed very touching reunions for pets and their owners (the Katrina episodes).

The only thing I disagreed with was one episode in which he put the lead (you know, the string type of leash/collar he uses?) on the yorkie's neck. It didn't seem to hurt that particular yorkie, but I know I wouldn't use that just because I believe in using harnesses (again, just an opinion). My baby has the collapsing trachea issue, so we are very careful about that. Anyway, i'm veering off.......Just wanted to put my two cents in here.

Britt & Uno

[YorkieMother]

There is a ton of great info here and thanks for leaving it open.
Ok so I do not have to quote everyone and do a dozen more posts.
Actually no Mick Vicks dogs had to go to very specific groups that could manage these dogs under the laws in the states they went to and the guys that in took them first had to do an assessment and with those place them only those meeting highest standards.
I actully would not have been about to intact a vicks dog at the time that they where in need as I was in a place that does not by law allow this breed.

That be a whole other debate thread on breed bands and dogs bites and I not ready to open that can of worms. LOL

As for Ceaser these dog where looked at by vet and PHD behaviourist for liabilty reasons and for sure they not be allowing him to work with them.

Ceaser is not the only one that works with the worse of the worse there are any number of trainers out there from Dr Dunbar, Dr McConnell, Dr Bourque, Dr Dodman, Dr yin, Dr. Overall, Pat dennsion, Pat Miller, Emma Paresons,
Lesile Mcdermitt, Terry Ryan, Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff, and many many many more that can and do work with these guys . Oh yes the folks at dog town.

You say he does not abuse I keep saying shock collars are abuse and he uses them. NowI find he uses static mats.The collar he uses the one he made been cited for choking dogs, cutting of air to the brain of the dogs and their for rendering harm to them.

I just not sure how one can say that is not abuse. But then again it only a dog not anything packing the ability to think feel or reason at any level worth building trust and respect. Humm that was once said about wait couldit be the female humans at one time.
.

JL

[QuickSilver]

Okay, I'm going to make one more post about posting, and then I will be quiet (about this). This is directed at everyone, including myself.

When you are debating a topic, you have to find something to respect about the topic of debate and those you are debating with. Otherwise, it will devolve into tit for tat comments. For instance, everyone who posts on this thread loves their dogs and is interested in training, otherwise they wouldn't be reading this thread. Lots of people don't care about training their dogs, so I respect people for just being interested, and thinking about how their dogs think.

I respect people who have studied canine behavior, who have read up on the subject, and who have degrees in different aspects of animal biology. I respect people who volunteer at shelters, and people who work with abused dogs. So even though I disagree with many of Cesar's methods, I don't think he is a bad man, because I believe he does genuinely love dogs and wants to help them.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, I'm going to make one more post about posting, and then I will be quiet (about this). This is directed at everyone, including myself.

When you are debating a topic, you have to find something to respect about the topic of debate and those you are debating with. Otherwise, it will devolve into tit for tat comments. For instance, everyone who posts on this thread loves their dogs and is interested in training, otherwise they wouldn't be reading this thread. Lots of people don't care about training their dogs, so I respect people for just being interested, and thinking about how their dogs think.

I respect people who have studied canine behavior, who have read up on the subject, and who have degrees in different aspects of animal biology. I respect people who volunteer at shelters, and people who work with abused dogs. So even though I disagree with many of Cesar's methods, I don't think he is a bad man, because I believe he does genuinely love dogs and wants to help them.

I can agree with you on he is not a bad man and he does try and We all make mistakes at times and we can learn from them.
But billing him by others as the saving grace of aggressive dogs when he causes some to fall apart is not ok. I have seen a few changes in him as if he is looking at other methods but he still goes back to shock.

When someone is in the room that was more experince and understanding of behavior and is trying to explain and share, sometimes it be a good idea instead of attacking them that one could listen and look at what is being brought to the table instead of going I see no abuse, I see not abuse........Cause one does not have the skill set as yet to see it.
If one would listen and read one would get those skills.
I can respect that one is willing to try to train and is intrested in training and always a good thing as to many dogs are not soicalized and are not trained leaving to many of us to clean up the mess.

When I started out I was and still am a crossover trainer.. been there done the old way which I find fun as the new way if I am correct been around since about 1999. in the form it is now and a ton longer then that to skinners work.

When I first saw his show I though great but it took a freind saying turn down the volume use your eyes not his words to see really see and I was shook. His haert may be in the right place as is all of ours when we take on a tough dog but sometimes he needs to slow it way down and step back. His one size fits all method is not a good thing for many dogs.
Postive gives you a ton of angles to come at a dog.

Thanks been a nice chat.
I am sure someone raeding this was learned a great deal.
I know I keep up my practice of saying the same thing in differnt ways doing these threads. i amazed that I can keep my cool and not say half of what crosses my mind. LOL

JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

There is a ton of great info here and thanks for leaving it open.
Ok so I do not have to quote everyone and do a dozen more posts.
Actually no Mick Vicks dogs had to go to very specific groups that could manage these dogs under the laws in the states they went to and the guys that in took them first had to do an assessment and with those place them only those meeting highest standards.
I actully would not have been about to intact a vicks dog at the time that they where in need as I was in a place that does not by law allow this breed.

That be a whole other debate thread on breed bands and dogs bites and I not ready to open that can of worms. LOL

As for Ceaser these dog where looked at by vet and PHD behaviourist for liabilty reasons and for sure they not be allowing him to work with them.

Ceaser is not the only one that works with the worse of the worse there are any number of trainers out there from Dr Dunbar, Dr McConnell, Dr Bourque, Dr Dodman, Dr yin, Dr. Overall, Pat dennsion, Pat Miller, Emma Paresons,
Lesile Mcdermitt, Terry Ryan, Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff, and many many many more that can and do work with these guys . Oh yes the folks at dog town.

You say he does not abuse I keep saying shock collars are abuse and he uses them. NowI find he uses static mats.The collar he uses the one he made been cited for choking dogs, cutting of air to the brain of the dogs and their for rendering harm to them.

I just not sure how one can say that is not abuse. But then again it only a dog not anything packing the ability to think feel or reason at any level worth building trust and respect. Humm that was once said about wait couldit be the female humans at one time.
.

JL

I watched an episode the other day where he used a shock collar on a HIGHLY aggressive American bulldog named Bella. The shock collar was literally on a vibrate, he did it on himself, he let someone else get "shocked" by it, the highest level was like 170 and he used it on a 50. You can tell it didn't hurt the dog, it just made her be like "oh man, better not do that anymore!" With dogs like that big and strong, I don't really believe it's doing any damage to them. I do think shock collars should only be used as a last resort, though. I would never use a shock collar on a little dog. And he wasn't abusing the shock collar. He used it a few times to get the lesson straight, and then the dog clearly understood so he didn't have to use the collar anymore. I just don't think it's that bad in certain cases but it all depends.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

I watched an episode the other day where he used a shock collar on a HIGHLY aggressive American bulldog named Bella. The shock collar was literally on a vibrate, he did it on himself, he let someone else get "shocked" by it, the highest level was like 170 and he used it on a 50. You can tell it didn't hurt the dog, it just made her be like "oh man, better not do that anymore!" With dogs like that big and strong, I don't really believe it's doing any damage to them. I do think shock collars should only be used as a last resort, though. I would never use a shock collar on a little dog. And he wasn't abusing the shock collar. He used it a few times to get the lesson straight, and then the dog clearly understood so he didn't have to use the collar anymore. I just don't think it's that bad in certain cases but it all depends.

Then it will not work... goes back to please read excelarted learning( I can pull the right spelling and name again if you need it. To use the collar and make it work you need to zap it once and blow the dog right off its feet. You do zaps at ever slowly increasing ok that word will not come out my fingures....humm resay. ok if you start mild and get stronger the dog darn another word I can not spell resay.... gets used to it so that they do not get effected by the zaps at all and the coller does not have the efect you think it should. Now I can back that up with research out of ok that name gone too. I can pull it if you need to.

Zapers need to be set high very very high for them to stay working and then turned down.

What I am saying it that zapping works but the very first correction with it needs to darn near kill the dog to have a lasting change... and you better do it on the right dog or the wrong one will rediect a bite and get you or the dog will crumble. Wrong dog spends it life cringing at the beep warning that their is a zap coming or a phone beep that a messsage is waiting.. I seen it and we have one that will go to a bite on a beep cause of a zap coller. ( times out of ten that zap that strog will end it it is the tenth time that the dog crubles and you have to repair and work with the rest of your and its life that makes then not ok.

Ok I think that made sence.

JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Then it will not work... goes back to please read excelarted learning( I can pull the right spelling and name again if you need it. To use the collar and make it work you need to zap it once and blow the dog right off its feet. You do zaps at ever slowly increasing ok that word will not come out my fingures....humm resay. ok if you start mild and get stronger the dog darn another word I can not spell resay.... gets used to it so that they do not get effected by the zaps at all and the coller does not have the efect you think it should. Now I can back that up with research out of ok that name gone too. I can pull it if you need to.

Zapers need to be set high very very high for them to stay working and then turned down.

What I am saying it that zapping works but the very first correction with it needs to darn near kill the dog to have a lasting change... and you better do it on the right dog or the wrong one will rediect a bite and get you or the dog will crumble. Wrong dog spends it life cringing at the beep warning that their is a zap coming or a phone beep that a messsage is waiting.. I seen it and we have one that will go to a bite on a beep cause of a zap coller. ( times out of ten that zap that strog will end it it is the tenth time that the dog crubles and you have to repair and work with the rest of your and its life that makes then not ok.

Ok I think that made sence.

JL

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you are trying to say... do you mean when using a shock collar, it must be turned ALL the way up in order for it to 'work'?

Here's the episode I was referring to, where I think the shock collar was used properly, and the dog needed something of the sorts. I would NEVER agree with using a shock collar on a puppy, small dog, or a dog who is not highly and extremely aggressive.

Episode: Hulu - Dog Whisperer: Bella - Watch the full episode now.

I think the problem with shock collars is people abuse them. Regular dog owners should not be allowed to purchase shock collars, in my opinion, because yes, then you may very well ruin the dog or get bit back, as you stated. You have to use them properly and not very much.

THIS is the WRONG way to use a shock collar... (As V.S. describes here

YouTube - It's Me or the Dog- Shock Collar

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Then it will not work... goes back to please read excelarted learning( I can pull the right spelling and name again if you need it. To use the collar and make it work you need to zap it once and blow the dog right off its feet. You do zaps at ever slowly increasing ok that word will not come out my fingures....humm resay. ok if you start mild and get stronger the dog darn another word I can not spell resay.... gets used to it so that they do not get effected by the zaps at all and the coller does not have the efect you think it should. Now I can back that up with research out of ok that name gone too. I can pull it if you need to.

Zapers need to be set high very very high for them to stay working and then turned down.

What I am saying it that zapping works but the very first correction with it needs to darn near kill the dog to have a lasting change... and you better do it on the right dog or the wrong one will rediect a bite and get you or the dog will crumble. Wrong dog spends it life cringing at the beep warning that their is a zap coming or a phone beep that a messsage is waiting.. I seen it and we have one that will go to a bite on a beep cause of a zap coller. ( times out of ten that zap that strog will end it it is the tenth time that the dog crubles and you have to repair and work with the rest of your and its life that makes then not ok.

Ok I think that made sence.

JL

Well that explains why you think it is cruel. Cesar uses it to get their attention. Don't blow off his methods just because you don't use the tools the same way.

That is like saying a swat on the butt of a child won't work to correct their behavior, that you have to beat them for it to be effective.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Well that explains why you think it is cruel. Cesar uses it to get their attention. Don't blow off his methods just because you don't use the tools the same way.

That is like saying a swat on the butt of a child won't work to correct their behavior, that you have to beat them for it to be effective.

Agree
Very good point.

[YorkieMother]

Hang in there we are coming to an understanding... you have to know I am not trying to talk down to you. it is tough when I, ok that much not ahead but more into the reseach end of things to keep it simple without it being seen or misread as put down so stay with me.

You can get an dogs attention without zapping many of these guys with aggression it is lack of focus as well.. Like an ADHD kid but not totally.
I tough to as the research I have is at my house so give me a chance to log back in later as I have a vet run to do.. have a sick one here and will get this cleared up.

But in part yes you do for the coller to do what it was designed for it needs to be turned up full.
Now that said I have limited understanding of it in the use with hunt dogs and they do use it for attention and that is not needed either. So ceaser maybe coming at it from that end but in true aggression to stop attacking and bites they need blown off their feet.

When I get back I can. Sick kid comes first. no not stalling we are talking and all talking makes for good lerning.

JL

[Nancy1999]

Yorkiemother I'm sure you have training information to share that many of us would find of value, but I do feel like you are beating us with a stick on this Cesar issue, and, as you know, beating someone with a stick, doesn't produce effective learning. I understand that you are strongly opposed to his methods, but I think you are focusing too much on what you don't like, and some of his work with dogs who were thought to be hopeless. I don't think any of us think Cesar is the only trainer who can offer us something, but you seem to be suggesting that if we accept any of his suggestions, we are abusing our dogs, and this makes me very uncomfortable. The same thing with other trainers who join Yorkietalk, I see the frustration in their writing in debating with you. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to offer your suggestions, but I think you sometimes aren't offering suggestions, but just saying, your wrong, and I'm right. Remember, much of this is just different people's opinion, and we are free to choose what we believe to be the correct method. I wish you could focus on how you believe to be the correct way to do something, instead of just focusing on how Cesar abuses the dogs.

As far as saying shock collars must be set on high before they will work, my knowledge is just in theory, not applications, but I can tell you there are two views to this. Some believe that a punishment should be given at extreme force the first time, because the organism acclimates to the punishment over time, but many believe that it does not have to be given at extreme force, that it can be used just as an attention method. The extreme force causes the "fastest" learning, but excessive force can cause other much more serious problems. For example, I use pennies in a can to reduce Joey's barking. Some would find this inhumane, but I try to produce an aversive sound that's just loud enough to demand his attention, but not so severe that it causes pain.

[Krystee]

I am very interested to see some episodes of The Dog Whisperer now to see his training methods for my own eyes but unfortunately I do not have the channel his show is on.

Since I have never seen his show I can't really debate but I have been hearing that he works with the worst dogs.

I would be very interested to see him and Victoria both work with similarly sized dogs with the same behavior problem and see who is more effective. If her method without shock collars and static mats is just as effective or more effective then I think we can all agree that it should be done way.

Does Cesar try the positive-based and then move on to his method if it doesn't work?

[livingdustmops]

This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods? Head of canine behavior with Tufts Vet school for one. If some of what Cesar endorses was done to any of my Yorkie rescues then the dogs would be dead as they bite first and ask questions second. I also don't understand why it is okay to zap a bulldog but not a Yorkie...why? I cannot endorse this type of training no matter what kind of dog it is used on.

As a side note I spent my summers at a girls ranch in Wyoming and they broke horses in a couple of days by beating the crap out of them and using a lot of cruel methods. This has gone on for how long until the horse whisperer came along and showed a whole new method to train horses - sure it takes longer but the same results without hitting the horses or hitting them with jackets or riding them until they almost collapse.

I get that he is interesting to watch (I watch from time to time) and I like his noise training to get their attention etc but for any of us that have dogs with issues I do not agree with his Alpha Roll method or his collar methods. Neither do the experts.

I think all of us can pick up different little methods but if the experts (animal behaviorists) that have their PhD’s in studying animals tell me that different theories are no longer applicable then I am going to listen to them.

I have posted what the experts have to say and here are a few more and obviously this debate is not just here at YT...it is on almost all dog forums. WOW!

The Anti-Cesar Millan | PetRescue

There is a quiet battle being fought in dog-training circles, and Dunbar, though he didn't pick the fight, represents one side. The mild, very mannered Dunbar is armed with degrees and scientific study: a veterinary degree and a Special Honors in physiology and biochemistry from the Royal Veterinary College of London University, a doctorate in animal behavior from the psychology department of UC Berkeley and a decade of research on the olfactory communication, social behavior and aggression in domestic dogs. All this, plus decades of dog-training experience.

Impressive, yes, but his opponent in this training controversy is backed by big business, Hollywood celebrity and, even worse, some say, the power of charisma. Cesar Millan, a.k.a. the Dog Whisperer, has his own television series on the National Geographic Channel and is churning out a burgeoning enterprise of videos and books. The subject of a recent New Yorker profile by Malcolm Gladwell, Millan is often photographed on high-tech in-line skates, leading a pack of pit bulls, rottweilers and German shepherds. The sexy Millan's dog-handling credentials include an upbringing on a Mexican farm, an "uncanny gift for communicating with dogs" and his Dog Psychology Center in Los Angeles. There, with a pack of 50 dogs, he rehabilitates wayward canines.


Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? continuation page
Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Anti-C...an/97584126794

Anti-Cesar Millan's Photos - Other pictures | Facebook

Cesar Millan exercised a dog to death? - snopes.com

An interesting article regarding training & Cesar Milan [Archive] - Cavalier Talk: CKCS Discussion Board & Forum

[YorkieMother]

Also give me a chance to change computors this one is hicuping and farting and doing strange things... ok another thing I hate when that happens with a computor. LOL
Cindy as alway well said but of course not read it all got to go.
Nancey will get back to you have you read the stuff by dr I think it is Leacher is his name if not will get it for you when I get back. Sick pup got to go.


JL