Cesar debate thread

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Let me add what I know here about packs vs. families. First, interestingly enough, we do not fully understand bird pecking order. Bird A can beat Bird B for a good food spot, Bird B can beat Bird C for another spot... and Bird C can beat on Bird A for the first spot. So dominance is not clearly defined, and even in wolf packs it is acknowledged to be fluid. Some wolfs are dominant in some situations but not others.

WRT to wolf packs vs. families, I think this is a valid criticism. The claim is that most of our studies are done on wolves (or dogs) forced to live with a large number of unrelated individuals. This can cause behavior that wouldn't be seen otherwise. In the wild, wolves are extremely shy. They generally only live in one family unit of two parents and one or more children. The father ranks over the mother, the mother ranks over the children, and the children rank by age. There is no question as to who is boss (note that baby wolves will still ferociously guard their food from everyone, suggesting that resource guarding is not a dominance behavior).

To demonstrate how different this is, I remember watching a wolf pack on APL where a female alpha wolf had killed her father to take control of the pack. Clearly this a night and day extreme, and one of the many things that makes me question dominance theory - how many people worry that their dogs may try to kill them in a bid for dominance?

I personally subscribe more to the idea that dogs see us as their mommies and daddies, which means that we automatically rank above them. That also doesn't mean discipline doesn't exist. This may be different when a large number of dogs live together, in which case pack theory may be more relevant.

To give another example, there are many "guard" breeds. A rottie may believe you are alpha, but still think it is her job to defend you. That's what they were bred for. At the same time, people will tell you that if a dog defends you, it thinks it's alpha. That doesn't make sense to me.

To use another example, I believe that insisting you walk through doors first has no analogue in the wild. How often are wolves squeezing through spaces single file the way we do for doors? However, I believe the discipline of telling your dog to position himself anywhere - front, side, behind - basically provides structure and rules, and that's why it has an effect.

Finally, we can take dolphins as an example, which are what Karen Pryor, the mother of positive training worked with. Dolphins are EXTREMELY rank oriented with each other, and often use force to maintain rank. Additionally cows are quite tough on their calves, in some cases even flipping them out of the pool for infractions. HOWEVER, you simply cannot train a dolphin with negative methods. Any kind of force won't work in the water, and they die of dehydration pretty quickly if they aren't fed regularly (they get their water from fish). So even though dominance and force are "natural" for dolphins, consider the amazing behavior we can train using different methods.

Okay, that's enough rambling for now.

Where to start.. ok birds are a straight line hierarchy and dogs and wolves and even dophines are not and chickens are the only being that is a stright line hierarchy.

I suggest you look into domiance theroy by james O heare and also there is a great DVD by jean donlason I think it is and Ian dunbar on dog training in a ceaser world. When i get home again ffrom the this trip will find the real title.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...t=cesar+millan

This was one thread

This be the guys that have said do not use his methods any more.

JL

[YorkieMother]

One poster here said I hate training...... I can not find that post to quote.

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.

They end up glowing and waiting for the time ti train it so fun and they know they are a partner in learning not the one that must follow.

Nothing like engaging the brain and seeing it work wonders.

It hurts to watch a dogs eyes turn off and stop that glow when trained in the manner that ceaser trains.

Once crushed that soul that will to try is very hard to heal.

JL

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Where to start.. ok birds are a straight line hierarchy and dogs and wolves and even dophines are not and chickens are the only being that is a stright line hierarchy.

I suggest you look into domiance theroy by james O heare and also there is a great DVD by jean donlason I think it is and Ian dunbar on dog training in a ceaser world. When i get home again ffrom the this trip will find the real title.

JL

Are you saying that birds are, or are not a straight line hierarchy? I was agreeing with you that dogs and wolves are not. I'm going to disagree with you on dolphins, because I've read quite a bit on this, even dolphin biology textbooks. Dolphins sleep according to rank. The higher ranked you are, the closer to the surface you sleep. It's better to sleep higher, because dolphins need to breathe air. I will caveat this by saying that dolphins in the wild are very hard to study, and they appear to form different pod structures. Also, of course, there is still the "forced pack (pod)" problem when studying them in captivity.

Karen Pryor mentions this in her book, "Lads Before the Wind". One researcher was trying to study dominance theory, and they isolated one or two dolphins. Unfortunately, by doing this, they disturbed the rank order, and when the dolphins were returned, they had to start on the bottom again.

Anyway, I think I was largely agreeing with you that dominance is complex and fluid, so it's a little weird to find you disagreeing with my agreement.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

One poster here said I hate training...... I can not find that post to quote.

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.


JL

I was kidding and being sarcastic because there are so many debates and different ways to train dogs. That's why I put a funny face with a tongue next to my post because I was really kidding. I don't think I would be in this thread debating if I hated training. I get great enjoyment out of training my dog, actually.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Are you saying that birds are, or are not a straight line hierarchy? I was agreeing with you that dogs and wolves are not. I'm going to disagree with you on dolphins, because I've read quite a bit on this, even dolphin biology textbooks. Dolphins sleep according to rank. The higher ranked you are, the closer to the surface you sleep. It's better to sleep higher, because dolphins need to breathe air. I will caveat this by saying that dolphins in the wild are very hard to study, and they appear to form different pod structures. Also, of course, there is still the "forced pack (pod)" problem when studying them in captivity.

Karen Pryor mentions this in her book, "Lads Before the Wind". One researcher was trying to study dominance theory, and they isolated one or two dolphins. Unfortunately, by doing this, they disturbed the rank order, and when the dolphins were returned, they had to start on the bottom again.

Anyway, I think I was largely agreeing with you that dominance is complex and fluid, so it's a little weird to find you disagreeing with my agreement.

Yes chickens are a stright line hierarchy and one of the only beings that are.
As to dolphins and others there is a debate and a relooking at things as we have been very tainted by the wolf reseach and our own human need for rank order to make the world understandable.

Lads before the wind is was printed in the time when rank order was just about to get questioned. I not sure they would see it the same way now.
Lots of things do to rank order will be rechecked due to Dr Meachs clearing up and relooking at wolf packs.

Science is also fliud and changing and humans tend to get stuck in one way of thinking and doing things so that we tend to not accept the changes. We also tend to question why science changes its mind on things. Simple as we learn more or look at it more or a new pair of eyes has a look we tend to see thing differnt or not as those at the begining thought it was.

For wolves the first study on dominace was done on a group of individule wolves from seprate packs (as well as types) tossed into a far to smal a space and they where afraid and had to fight it out. Poor dears.
The scienists at the time had no way to really study them in the wild and thought what they saw was what it was in the wild. That is how we got rank order.

For dog stuff I look at coppingers work as well as james O heares stuff.

Most of us humans like rank order as it keeps the world nice and tidy.
Look at the armys and most companies... bosses on top and lower downs do the work.
In a wolf pack it the top end that does most of the work as the lower ends need to learn what it takes to pull down a deer or elk. As they are babies.
Just like in most family units. Mum and Dad do most of the work until the childern grow up.

I know you understand this stuff but the more we repeat it and in many differnt ways the more chances are that others will come to understand that rank order is just for chickens and has no really part in our day to day lives with our dogs.


JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chachi

I really like Cesar but I dont think all of his training methods work for small dogs. Some are geared toward bigger dogs. I enjoy watching his shows though

YOu got it!!!

Alll dog training is geared to the big dogs it takes time to bust it down to work with the little ones.

the majority of my time is taken up by spinning things down to work for the little ones.

I keep hoping that Emma Parsons will take my suggestion and write a small dog aggression book as I asked her.

That said many have thought it cute that they have a fiesty little dog and have allowed them to get away with to much.
It was only been in the last few years that even with the little guys it no longer ok to have them fiesty and not follow rules. So there needs to be a catch up in this area.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

I don't agree with static mats, however in the episode that Cesar used one, the dog constantly jumped over a ten foot fence. He would climb and really injure himself and get loose. I believe it was a Boxer. He placed a static mat where the dog would always jump over the gate. And since then, he has not been loose. I feel like in a case like that... What else are you supposed to do?

There it is fast and lazy and causing pain.

No reason that dogs needs to be outside unattended to get out. Where are the owners. Where is boundry training.
Why is it the dog wants to get out. It is Bored.
Why not set up the are to give the dog some mental stimulation... wait that be work on Ceasers part. Hide food. by kongs, make puzzles.

Wham bam zap you man is not training that is abuse.
That is not training and not acceptable.

JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

YOu got it!!!

Alll dog training is geared to the big dogs it takes time to bust it down to work with the little ones.

the majority of my time is taken up by spinning things down to work for the little ones.

I keep hoping that Emma Parsons will take my suggestion and write a small dog aggression book as I asked her.

That said many have thought it cute that they have a fiesty little dog and have allowed them to get away with to much.
It was only been in the last few years that even with the little guys it no longer ok to have them fiesty and not follow rules. So there needs to be a catch up in this area.

JL

I totally agree with this.

And I do agree that a lot of Cesar's methods are geared towards larger dogs for sure.

Yay, we agree on something!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

There it is fast and lazy and causing pain.

No reason that dogs needs to be outside unattended to get out. Where are the owners. Where is boundry training.
Why is it the dog wants to get out. It is Bored.
Why not set up the are to give the dog some mental stimulation... wait that be work on Ceasers part. Hide food. by kongs, make puzzles.

Wham bam zap you man is not training that is abuse.
That is not training and not acceptable.

JL

I totally agree with you on the bolded parts. But, sometimes dogs simply want to get out... also, I know the Kongs, Puzzles, etc, do not keep Jackson busy at all. He won't play with them... he prefers to sleep while I'm gone. And I've watched him on camera once so I know that's all he does, even when I left him a Kong, etc.

However, I disagree about having to watch the dog all the time outside in a fenced in yard. Come on. Dogs enjoy being outside, that's the point of having a fenced in yard. We have a large fenced in yard over at my dad's house and they have two dogs and I bring my one over, and we let them out the door when they have to go potty, etc, and we stay in the house. Every dog owner I know does that. That's not necessarily "lazy"... it's just what you do.

And they did go out with the dog so he wouldn't jump the fence. That's why they called Cesar because they didn't want to have to stand out there all the time, they wanted to feel safe with him in his own backyard.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

I was kidding and being sarcastic because there are so many debates and different ways to train dogs. That's why I put a funny face with a tongue next to my post because I was really kidding. I don't think I would be in this thread debating if I hated training. I get great enjoyment out of training my dog, actually.

You may have been kidding but all to many feel this way.

Reason being is that they think that zapping. yelling, hitting or poking, shoving ones fist in mouths of dogs is the only way to do any training. They can not bring themselves to hurt a family member and rightly so. But in that they do not think there is any other better way so they do not train at all.
They head down a road that leads to a dog out of control and again as they feel there is no choice other then Ceasers way, they go do it.
Sadly it is not just ceaser there are many that stick to the old way of doing things we have one in Canada that really is quite a ton worse and he is oon TV to. I have the great fortune to be one of the few that says I failed to hire him.
There is a better non voilent respectful way of training and it does not need to be clicker it can be lure and reward. Just no zap or poke need happen.

JL

[ARCHIE]

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.

They end up glowing and waiting for the time ti train it so fun and they know they are a partner in learning not the one that must follow.

Nothing like engaging the brain and seeing it work wonders.

It hurts to watch a dogs eyes turn off and stop that glow when trained in the manner that ceaser trains.

Once crushed that soul that will to try is very hard to heal.

JL


Obviously your a trainer, however, you can't knock Ceaser for his ways.
I have watched his show for over a year and totally respect him for his
way's in not only saving dog's but training them to be happy dog's as well.
I have never seen the light taken out of any dog that he has trained.
Perhaps the light was not there in the first place because they did not
know how to be a dog due to thier owner's lack of training in the first place.
I have seen dog's so vicious they would have been PTS if it had not
been for Ceaser. Give the man his due. Look at his dog's, no one looks
unhappy to me. He does get dog's with crushed souls as you have put
it and it is he who brings life back into them.
To have fun while training is important yes but when you have a vicious
dog you can't have fun in training it until it totaly respects you as it's
trainer. I have never seen him injure a dog or it's spirit's.
If you have never had an aggressive dog and only a little lap dog that
only gives you kisses then you have not a clue what it can be like to
have an aggressive dog. If it means saving a dog's life then I would bite
it myself it that's what it took to bring it back.
Everyone will have his or her own views on any subject but when you
actually see dog's being saved and rehabilitated you can't knock the
trainer for his way of training. You may have a different way but that
does not mean Ceasar's way is wrong.

P.S. You can't train a vicious dog during a commercial break!
IMO

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

I totally agree with you on the bolded parts. But, sometimes dogs simply want to get out... also, I know the Kongs, Puzzles, etc, do not keep Jackson busy at all. He won't play with them... he prefers to sleep while I'm gone. And I've watched him on camera once so I know that's all he does, even when I left him a Kong, etc.

However, I disagree about having to watch the dog all the time outside in a fenced in yard. Come on. Dogs enjoy being outside, that's the point of having a fenced in yard. We have a large fenced in yard over at my dad's house and they have two dogs and I bring my one over, and we let them out the door when they have to go potty, etc, and we stay in the house. Every dog owner I know does that. That's not necessarily "lazy"... it's just what you do.

And they did go out with the dog so he wouldn't jump the fence. That's why they called Cesar because they didn't want to have to stand out there all the time, they wanted to feel safe with him in his own backyard.

Well here we disagree if you have a fence jumper then you need to watch.
If a dog wants out of an area. Why? If not bored then what the female down the raod is in heat. the kid walking by waves a treat in its face and over the dog goes. WHY?
Find out why and fix the way. If yo can not figure out why or take the time to find out why that is lazy.
Zapping a dog to stay in a yard does not make it feel safe it makes it feel afraid to try to get out. It gives it limits but it done by fear.

Yes I have a dog that sleeps all day to in a very large kennel as she can not settle do to anxiety when left free to roam the house.
In her very large kennel she can not jump of, she has room to play if she chooses to or eat or sleep but when left to run she will pull things apart do to her anxiety. This girl is a 10 pounder and she can climb over things like they are nothing with a lib she settles down. In a kennel she blocked from seeing the nieghbours dog at the window trying to pick a fight or the gopher that must be chased or the person she fears walking by she must go kill. She is calm and resting.

JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Well here we disagree if you have a fence jumper then you need to watch.
If a dog wants out of an area. Why? If not bored then what the female down the raod is in heat. the kid walking by waves a treat in its face and over the dog goes. WHY?
Find out why and fix the way. If yo can not figure out why or take the time to find out why that is lazy.
Zapping a dog to stay in a yard does not make it feel safe it makes it feel afraid to try to get out. It gives it limits but it done by fear.

Yes I have a dog that sleeps all day to in a very large kennel as she can not settle do to anxiety when left free to roam the house.
In her very large kennel she can not jump of, she has room to play if she chooses to or eat or sleep but when left to run she will pull things apart do to her anxiety. This girl is a 10 pounder and she can climb over things like they are nothing with a lib she settles down. In a kennel she blocked from seeing the nieghbours dog at the window trying to pick a fight or the gopher that must be chased or the person she fears walking by she must go kill. She is calm and resting.

JL

Wait, are you saying that you have a dog that sleeps all day in a kennel, and stays in that kennel to eat, play, etc? If that's what you're saying, I'm sorry, but that's terrible. A dog cannot be kept in a kennel. I don't care how anxious or fearful she is, you have to get her to experience the world and get over that fear. Just like a depressed person who stays in their house all day... it makes them worse. That is NO life for a dog and if I'm understanding you correctly and that is what you're doing to a dog, that is way worse than what you're claiming Cesar apparently does to his dogs. If you're a trainer, why would you not train her to NOT pick a fight with the neighbors dog or a gopher? You're going to keep her secluded from the world instead?!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.

They end up glowing and waiting for the time ti train it so fun and they know they are a partner in learning not the one that must follow.

Nothing like engaging the brain and seeing it work wonders.

It hurts to watch a dogs eyes turn off and stop that glow when trained in the manner that ceaser trains.

Once crushed that soul that will to try is very hard to heal.

JL


Obviously your a trainer, however, you can't knock Ceaser for his ways.
I have watched his show for over a year and totally respect him for his
way's in not only saving dog's but training them to be happy dog's as well.
I have never seen the light taken out of any dog that he has trained.
Perhaps the light was not there in the first place because they did not
know how to be a dog due to thier owner's lack of training in the first place.
I have seen dog's so vicious they would have been PTS if it had not
been for Ceaser. Give the man his due. Look at his dog's, no one looks
unhappy to me. He does get dog's with crushed souls as you have put
it and it is he who brings life back into them.
To have fun while training is important yes but when you have a vicious
dog you can't have fun in training it until it totaly respects you as it's
trainer. I have never seen him injure a dog or it's spirit's.
If you have never had an aggressive dog and only a little lap dog that
only gives you kisses then you have not a clue what it can be like to
have an aggressive dog. If it means saving a dog's life then I would bite
it myself it that's what it took to bring it back.
Everyone will have his or her own views on any subject but when you
actually see dog's being saved and rehabilitated you can't knock the
trainer for his way of training. You may have a different way but that
does not mean Ceasar's way is wrong.

P.S. You can't train a vicious dog during a commercial break!
IMO

Thank you, Carol, you always make such great posts.