Cesar debate thread

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yorkiemother I'm sure you have training information to share that many of us would find of value, but I do feel like you are beating us with a stick on this Cesar issue, and, as you know, beating someone with a stick, doesn't produce effective learning. I understand that you are strongly opposed to his methods, but I think you are focusing too much on what you don't like, and some of his work with dogs who were thought to be hopeless. I don't think any of us think Cesar is the only trainer who can offer us something, but you seem to be suggesting that if we accept any of his suggestions, we are abusing our dogs, and this makes me very uncomfortable. The same thing with other trainers who join Yorkietalk, I see the frustration in their writing in debating with you. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to offer your suggestions, but I think you sometimes aren't offering suggestions, but just saying, your wrong, and I'm right. Remember, much of this is just different people's opinion, and we are free to choose what we believe to be the correct method. I wish you could focus on how you believe to be the correct way to do something, instead of just focusing on how Cesar abuses the dogs.

As far as saying shock collars must be set on high before they will work, my knowledge is just in theory, not applications, but I can tell you there are two views to this. Some believe that a punishment should be given at extreme force the first time, because the organism acclimates to the punishment over time, but many believe that it does not have to be given at extreme force, that it can be used just as an attention method. The extreme force causes the "fastest" learning, but excessive force can cause other problems. For example, I use pennies in a can to reduce Joey's barking. Some would find this inhumane, but I try to produce an aversive sound that's just loud enough to demand his attention, but not so severe that it causes pain.

Great post. Your words are so much better than mine, lol.

And agree with the pennies in a can method. I've used it on Jackson. It's caused no psychological harm to him. I've also squirted him with a squirt bottle for barking and it's worked like a charm. Some may say that's abusive, I don't think it is.

Victoria Stillwell uses noises, claps, etc as well. I've seen her use a loud horn once to distract the dogs from barking at the door. And she's an all positive trainer.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Then it will not work... goes back to please read excelarted learning( I can pull the right spelling and name again if you need it. To use the collar and make it work you need to zap it once and blow the dog right off its feet. You do zaps at ever slowly increasing ok that word will not come out my fingures....humm resay. ok if you start mild and get stronger the dog darn another word I can not spell resay.... gets used to it so that they do not get effected by the zaps at all and the coller does not have the efect you think it should. Now I can back that up with research out of ok that name gone too. I can pull it if you need to.

Zapers need to be set high very very high for them to stay working and then turned down.

What I am saying it that zapping works but the very first correction with it needs to darn near kill the dog to have a lasting change... and you better do it on the right dog or the wrong one will rediect a bite and get you or the dog will crumble. Wrong dog spends it life cringing at the beep warning that their is a zap coming or a phone beep that a messsage is waiting.. I seen it and we have one that will go to a bite on a beep cause of a zap coller. ( times out of ten that zap that strog will end it it is the tenth time that the dog crubles and you have to repair and work with the rest of your and its life that makes then not ok.

Ok I think that made sence.

JL

Okay I can agree with you I dont like the use of a shock collar except maybe on bigger powerful dogs. I dont think anyone should use on on a smaller dog not even the electric fencing collars

[Britster]

Originally Posted by chachi

Okay I can agree with you I dont like the use of a shock collar except maybe on bigger powerful dogs. I dont think anyone should use on on a smaller dog not even the electric fencing collars

I agree with this too. I wouldn't like the idea of using a shock collar on a smaller dog. Even Jackson who is 14lbs, his little neck is just soo small, I couldn't do it. I do, however, think it's not so bad on a larger powerful very aggressive breed if used properly.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

....As a side note I spent my summers at a girls ranch in Wyoming and they broke horses in a couple of days by beating the crap out of them and using a lot of cruel methods. This has gone on for how long until the horse whisperer came along and showed a whole new method to train horses - sure it takes longer but the same results without hitting the horses or hitting them with jackets or riding them until they almost collapse.

I read something (I believe by Karen Pryor) that was very interesting about horse breaking. She talked about this old, mystical way gypsies broke wild horses in just a few hours. They would get in a pen with a wild horse, and the horse would go berserk for a while, and then unbelievably, he would be quietly following the human. It was very dangerous because of course you could get kicked in the head by the horse.

This method has been used since the beginning of civilization, and it is just in the past century that the technique was assessed, and it is really quite simple (though still, not recommended at home!). The horse desperately wants to get away from the scary human, and is bouncing every which way in his attempts to escape the pen. Random chance dictates that some of these wild movements will bring the horse closer to the human. At that second, the human drops her hands and backs up. The horse learns that the only way to get the human to move away is to approach her! This method (not the enclosed pen, but the reward of distance) is now used with many fearful animals. It's actually a basic application of positive reinforcement.

I just re-watched a couple of Cesar's eppy's, and it's true that a lot of them don't use insane force. I am finding them really interesting in terms of dog body language now that I know a little bit more about that. A lot of advice Cesar gives is basic, like with the pink maltese - if your dog is excited to the point of peeing, don't get her more excited.

I still do find him frustrating because I feel like his language is very imprecise, but I know that's a personal thing. It does annoy me, though. Like he flagged this dog as "in an unbalanced submissive state" because the dog was lifting his paw, and Cesar said that's a predatory signal. It CAN be a predatory signal, but it can ALSO be an appeasement gesture, and it seemed pretty clear the dog was trying to appease (it was paired with lip licking, etc). Also, Cesar's "magic" way of getting dogs to sit with the "sshhhh" noise: Sitting and laying down are both appeasement gestures.

I feel so unbalanced after I watch his show!

[livingdustmops]

Interesting about the gypsies - I will have to read up on this...here is the gentleman who I watched on tv.

Monty Roberts Join Up, Man Who Listens to Horses, Real Horse Whisperer, Books, Biography, Train, Demonstrations, Flag is Up

I am no horse person but I just remember as a young girl watching them do what they did and then just crying. I do not believe in hurting any animal and I believe given time you can bring any animal around - even the Vick dogs except 1 (I think the dog was put down before given to Best Friends). Friends.

I believe even beaten dogs will do whatever it takes to survive (like many woman who are beaten) but what quality of life do they have?

Some people might say that my thoughts are clouded as I have rescue Yorkies but my answer would be then why do the experts not endorse Milan's training.

[QuickSilver]

Argh, this show really drives me crazy. I'm watching him train a couple with two boxers, and he is using prong collars, which are totally unnecessary, AND encouraging the owners to give corrections when the dogs are not doing anything wrong, not even LOOKING at other dogs! Don't be fooled, those prong collars DO hurt. They are not magic. If someone put prongs around your neck, you'd be really careful around them too. A gentle leader is completely effective and not cruel - it puts you in charge of the dog's head.

He's also not using some basic techniques to diffuse dog on dog aggression, like keeping the dog on his far side, or just TEACHING the dog to be calm and look at its owner when other dogs pass by.

However, the owners actually said that one of the boxers had bitten several other dogs and they had been warned the dog would have to be put down if it happened again. So Cesar's method is better than the dog dying. That's where the ARGH comes in. I kind of wish I could just say I loved him or hated him.

===================

Also, I hate to say this, but you can easily tell that while one of the dogs is staying very still and submissive, she is most certainly not calm. She is constantly licking her lips, rounded back, tucked tail, ears back, AND almost the entire white of her eye is showing. She is very stressed.

[QuickSilver]

Argh again. I feel bad posting this, because I do love many Cesar lovers here... but I am just horrified by what he is doing to this poor retriever. He is choking her repeatedly and she is crying out in pain and fear. It IS abusive. It is killing me, because the owners said she is a very high energy dog, probably too high energy for them -- well, why not hire a dog walker to take her on a two hour run a couple times per week! Cesar says she is sensitive to being touched in certain areas of her body. Thor was like this too, and it's soooo easy to fix - you just get the dog relaxed, and then tough the sensitive body part a little bit. That's it. I'm obviously not an expert trainer, but body sensitivity is SO common, and so is the technique I just described.

I don't believe in 100% positive reinforcement. I found pennies in a can very effective, I believe in using your body to set boundaries, I don't believe dogs should run the household, and yes, I think dogs are dogs, not people. While I don't agree with it, I'm not shocked by people who spank their dogs with newspapers or rub their noses in their waste. But Cesar is using cruel and unnecessary methods, WAY beyond a simple whack with a newspaper.

These dogs look just like the kind Victoria trains, it's just that "It's Me or the Dog" bills them as ordinary behavior problems, not shocking, can-this-dog-be-saved emergencies. I'm watching Season 3, by the way.

[zekie's mom]

I love both Ceasar and Victoria. You need to use different methods with different dogs. I watch and just use the methods I think would work with my dog. What we need to realize is that the dogs both Ceasar and Victoria work with are the tough to solve cases, not your ordinary fairly well behaved dog. They both work wonders with their various methods.

[QuickSilver]

Now the poor girl is sitting on her tail. She is clearly afraid of Cesar and trying to pacify him.

I don't think he's intentionally being cruel, but it's honestly turning my stomach.

[QuickSilver]

I can't say how bothered I am by this. It really looked like this retriever was just under-exercised (her owners had to be told to walk her at least 30 minutes per day! A young retriever!), and under-socialized. Why not just let her get to know some other dogs in a calm environment? All this force was completely uncalled for.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Argh, this show really drives me crazy. I'm watching him train a couple with two boxers, and he is using prong collars, which are totally unnecessary, AND encouraging the owners to give corrections when the dogs are not doing anything wrong, not even LOOKING at other dogs! Don't be fooled, those prong collars DO hurt. They are not magic. If someone put prongs around your neck, you'd be really careful around them too. A gentle leader is completely effective and not cruel - it puts you in charge of the dog's head.

He's also not using some basic techniques to diffuse dog on dog aggression, like keeping the dog on his far side, or just TEACHING the dog to be calm and look at its owner when other dogs pass by.

However, the owners actually said that one of the boxers had bitten several other dogs and they had been warned the dog would have to be put down if it happened again. So Cesar's method is better than the dog dying. That's where the ARGH comes in. I kind of wish I could just say I loved him or hated him.

===================

Also, I hate to say this, but you can easily tell that while one of the dogs is staying very still and submissive, she is most certainly not calm. She is constantly licking her lips, rounded back, tucked tail, ears back, AND almost the entire white of her eye is showing. She is very stressed.

This is my take on the dog being put down. These people watch tv and tv sells and they probably think he is the dogs only salvation..he is NOT...but I think these owners are ignorant about many different training styles and they want a quick fix. My question is, why is this dog with other dogs if it bites..DUMB...why would you put your dog into this type of situation? or is this the owners other dogs?

Makes me so angry if he is stressing out a dog and soon this family might have two dogs on their hands that bite....

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by zekie's mom

I love both Ceasar and Victoria. You need to use different methods with different dogs. I watch and just use the methods I think would work with my dog. What we need to realize is that the dogs both Ceasar and Victoria work with are the tough to solve cases, not your ordinary fairly well behaved dog. They both work wonders with their various methods.

I mean no disrepect but I don't agree with this and I think that many dogs that Victoria/Cesar works with are like many dogs out there. I think most owners just will not read books or get on the internet to try and even understand how dogs think. They bring puppies into their homes and think the dogs will just adapt or the dogs are taught to be submissive. There are still many owners that think you shove your puppies noise into their messes to train them.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I can't say how bothered I am by this. It really looked like this retriever was just under-exercised (her owners had to be told to walk her at least 30 minutes per day! A young retriever!), and under-socialized. Why not just let her get to know some other dogs in a calm environment? All this force was completely uncalled for.

How sad...why do people get dogs if they are not willing to put time into them.

[QuickSilver]

I walk a lot dog-aggressive dogs at a shelter, and all of the dogs undergo a two week quarantine period when they first arrive, so they can't meet any dogs or people on the street. We can only touch them after we put gowns and gloves on. Also, we often have big, exuberant dogs that love other canines, but tend to scare people with their enthusiasm. I walk all of them easily, with a very simple method: when we see other dogs or people coming, we cross the street. If that's not possible, we go off to the side, and I give the dog a treat and distract them while the other dog passes.

[Krystee]

Originally Posted by zekie's mom

I love both Ceasar and Victoria. You need to use different methods with different dogs. I watch and just use the methods I think would work with my dog. What we need to realize is that the dogs both Ceasar and Victoria work with are the tough to solve cases, not your ordinary fairly well behaved dog. They both work wonders with their various methods.

I completely agree with this but different doesn't have to mean shock collars or prong collars.