Cesar debate thread

[chachi]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

Bottom line - I like some of his methods, I have employed many and they have worked for me. The methods I don't think will work for me, I discard. I think he is very cute and I would love to hear his accent
__________________


Why Cindy you little devil you.

I totally agree. (even about him being cute)

I agree also and He is a cutie pie for sure!

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

One of the most important things I learned about training my dogs came from a well known horse trainer. I am the best trainer for MY dogs. Any time I am within sight, smell, or hearing distance of my dog he/she is learning from me. It is my responsibility to make each moment a positive one.

With that said, I believe that I can learn from EVERYONE. Not just fancy schmancy "trainers", but from each one of you. We all have had different experiences and I can learn do's and don'ts from all.

As for Ceasar -- I loved his book, but since I don't have TV and the sound on my 'puter doesn't work I haven't seen any of his episodes. I have found that I don't agree with everything any trainer has to say, I glean what I think will work for me and discard the rest. I do like the idea of seeing that the dogs are exercised enough to be tired in the evening and that they aren't bored. I truly believe that a lot of behavorial problems stem from bored dogs with too much "time on their hands". All of our kids need a job to do.

With that said, I don't believe in running one to death, but some dogs may NEED and ENJOY a daily 6 or 7 hour daily run. I know my Irish Setter would run with me when I rode my horse cross country and sometimes those rides were 5 or 6 hours ( back in my single days).

I don't know anything first hand about Cesar - I have never talked to him in person and I haven't worked with him as a trainer - so I don't have enough information to comment on his specific methods. I don't take third party comments about people as the gospel truth. Remember his TV shows are edited and so are his books..... so what we are forming an opinion on isn't necessarily the entire picture.

Bottom line - I like some of his methods, I have employed many and they have worked for me. The methods I don't think will work for me, I discard. I think he is very cute and I would love to hear his accent

Ha, have to agree with all that! I DO think that most behaviour problems stem from lack of exercise and stimulation. So "exercise, discipline, and affection" is a perfectly fine place to start. I've heard that sled dogs are some of the happiest dogs in the world because dogs find it deeply gratifying to run together. Now, is the average person going to have an extra six hours per day to exahust all potential mischief out of a dog? Maybe not.

I think what YorkieMother was saying about watching the show with the volume off is that the dogs' body language often signals fear and appeasement towards Cesar, and he misses it. I have a bunch of eppy's saved, but I haven't looked for that yet.

YorkieMother, I respect your experience and knowledge very much, but sometimes your posts do come off very strong and somewhat belittling to people who have different opinions. I think if you softened your language, people might be more open to different methods, which is your ultimate goal, right? Just a suggestion.

[sdnylz]

Why anybody that is successful always gets a lot of criticism?

Dogs have to know who's boss otherwise they want to become the boss.

I don't think Cesar is abusing the dogs. Usually the dogs he deals with are very aggresive, spoiled rottens by us humans.and after he is done they love him!

let me put it this way, when we humans are out of control and do wrong things, we are send to jail, or a judge made us do community service to brings us down to a "submissive state of mind" (using cesar's words lol). or we are taken to a hospital for crazy people and you could be place in an isolated room. Othertimes, we are taken to a doctor that sometimes prescribe meds to makes us submissive. the point is nobody thinks this is abusive, we deserve it or it has to be done because we have been "bad".

why is it abusive when extreme methods are use on a extreme behaving dog?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by sdnylz

Why anybody that is successful always gets a lot of criticism?

Dogs have to know who's boss otherwise they want to become the boss.

I don't think Cesar is abusing the dogs. Usually the dogs he deals with are very aggresive, spoiled rottens by us humans.and after he is done they love him!

let me put it this way, when we humans are out of control and do wrong things, we are send to jail, or a judge made us do community service to brings us down to a "submissive state of mind" (using cesar's words lol). or we are taken to a hospital for crazy people and you could be place in an isolated room. Othertimes, we are taken to a doctor that sometimes prescribe meds to makes us submissive. the point is nobody thinks this is abusive, we deserve it or it has to be done because we have been "bad".

why is it abusive when extreme methods are use on a extreme behaving dog?

I wasn't going to post again in this thread but I have to say, VERY good point!

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by sdnylz

Why anybody that is successful always gets a lot of criticism?

Dogs have to know who's boss otherwise they want to become the boss.

I don't think Cesar is abusing the dogs. Usually the dogs he deals with are very aggresive, spoiled rottens by us humans.and after he is done they love him!

let me put it this way, when we humans are out of control and do wrong things, we are send to jail, or a judge made us do community service to brings us down to a "submissive state of mind" (using cesar's words lol). or we are taken to a hospital for crazy people and you could be place in an isolated room. Othertimes, we are taken to a doctor that sometimes prescribe meds to makes us submissive. the point is nobody thinks this is abusive, we deserve it or it has to be done because we have been "bad".

why is it abusive when extreme methods are use on a extreme behaving dog?

It is not that he is successful that there is a need to be critial.
It is that he is far to rough and over bearing and does not read body language at all well of dogs.
As for him working with aggressive dog there are any number of trainers, vets and PHDs including the guys in dog town that work with far worse and never zap, poke or shove fists in mouths. Ever.
The guys aT dog town have a few of Mick Vicks pit bulls and they are out or about to go out in the world with rehab and be well.
I did not see Ceaser work with or be allowed to work with any of those dogs.
Those are the worse of the worse.

Extreme methods are not needed to rehab a dog it your willing to do it slow and easy and get there in the dogs time not yours.

Dogs do not want to rule the world they do what works and what is or makes them comfortable with the least amount of work.
Many are looking like my girl for the world and it just does not make sence to her how it all works. She needs the structure and the support that comes with understanding but inflected and rick solid with no flex when she was a bad day is not a good thing. LEader ship show be flexable. and give when needed and the way ceaser does it there is not give.
WHen this girl of mine goes off into space the last thing she needs is someone pulling at her leash going do it. She needs to chill and be left to settle so she can go back out and learn. Shut down is an ugly thing in both humans and in dogs and it not helped by getting tough. It is helped by support and drugs.

JL

[bebeyorkie]

Originally Posted by JoeyP

This debate goes along with the whole dominance is good or bad debate
Cesar Milan is an advocate and a leader in .... when training a dog you must be viewed as a pack leader and therefore dominant

and as much as you want to believe that your dogs are human and dress them up and talk to them
I have news ..... they ARE dogs
and they will behave like dogs and have instinctual and situational behaviors like dogs

Is positive training worthwhile? Absolutely
But it doesn't negate the fact that you MUST be viewed as the leader for your dog

Now some dogs automatically see their owner as a leader and there doesn't need to be any special training in those cases
But when a dog Doesn't see you as a leader that's when behavioral problems occur
and can lead to aggression
can lead to confusion and timidity
and a whole host of other issues

I have never seen cesar abuse any of his dogs and I'd be the first to call him on it
but the use of dominance training is a useful and needed training device
in any household with a dog

Totally Agree

I like Ceaser very much and I've learned alot from him I watch him every week. I do use his methods and they have worked with training my furbabies. I can definitely say that my furbabies are alot more balanced and calm then before

[bebeyorkie]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

Obviously you have a thing for Ceaser and think only your methods
are the correct methods. If it works for you great but Ceaser is Ceaser
and I have total respect for him because I know his methods work.
I have been using them on a Yorkie for 2yrs and know for a fact, if
followed daily, yes they do work.
Good luck to you in your training, however, I must say I don't think
it professional of you to knock another trainer's methods especially
when he is world known for his accomplishments and has saved
countless dog's from death.
Done on this subject.

Great post I totally agree

[YorkieMother]

I tried last night to post this but a nice little summer strom got in the way.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

YorkieMother, I respect your experience and knowledge very much, but sometimes your posts do come off very strong and somewhat belittling to people who have different opinions. I think if you softened your language, people might be more open to different methods, which is your ultimate goal, right? Just a suggestion.

Quicksilver although I quote you to start this is not directed at you just trying to shorten up the posting time for me. Thanks for the I respect thing, Thank you.

So again as I may have quoted you at the start of this post this is a finishing general comment to the thread and directed in total to you.

While I do understand what you are saying. It is next to impossible for me to take it down anymore or it will turn into mush. I not sure how to soft petal it anymore then I am.

It to me is like someone telling me after all these years that they bought their dog from a pet store and they did not know it was a mill dog.

I do wonder what rock they have hide under. Believe me it happened this weekend and I had to leave the room.

With this fellow it has been going on since the day he rolled onto TV and he is still around cause well he is cute and he makes for dramatic reality TV.

I not out to change the world or get him off TV but if one person reads this and thinks hard and goes a different way from him. I've done what I set out to do.
One will ripple to another to another to another and one day just like puppy mills are going out of business he will too.

While I understand I get laughed at or beat on I also understand that it is part and parcel of making change and others coming to a better understanding. What one does not know or understand or may make you feel uncomfortable or in the wrong means the messenger carrying that info gets beat on do to ones discomfort with the info.( I am not saying that you beat on me I am saying in general) I am ok with that.

Example the person that first said the earth is round
That puppy mills are bad.
That the biewer breed will be a breed.
That wolves are not pack animals.
That women should vote and should be equal.
That slaver is wrong.
That beating your child is wrong...why the SPCA came about in the first place was to stop child abuse ( yes I know it still happens but back then children where owned).... they all got beat on and look things changed.

For me it is truly one dog at a time. One owner at time.

If many in the board want to laugh go right ahead and do so, but humbly that is it in a nut shell. For me it is not ok to hurt a dog in the name of training and doing so is not anything less then abuse. Just cause we can make a dog do something does not mean we have the right to do so or should. Does not mean we let them run wild either we can control without force.


JL

[chachi]

I really agree with quicksilver and it also always seems you like to have the last word.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

I tried last night to post this but a nice little summer strom got in the way.




Quicksilver although I quote you to start this is not directed at you just trying to shorten up the posting time for me. Thanks for the I respect thing, Thank you.

So again as I may have quoted you at the start of this post this is a finishing general comment to the thread and directed in total to you.

While I do understand what you are saying. It is next to impossible for me to take it down anymore or it will turn into mush. I not sure how to soft petal it anymore then I am.

It to me is like someone telling me after all these years that they bought their dog from a pet store and they did not know it was a mill dog.

I do wonder what rock they have hide under. Believe me it happened this weekend and I had to leave the room.

With this fellow it has been going on since the day he rolled onto TV and he is still around cause well he is cute and he makes for dramatic reality TV.

I not out to change the world or get him off TV but if one person reads this and thinks hard and goes a different way from him. I've done what I set out to do.
One will ripple to another to another to another and one day just like puppy mills are going out of business he will too.

While I understand I get laughed at or beat on I also understand that it is part and parcel of making change and others coming to a better understanding. What one does not know or understand or may make you feel uncomfortable or in the wrong means the messenger carrying that info gets beat on do to ones discomfort with the info.( I am not saying that you beat on me I am saying in general) I am ok with that.

Example the person that first said the earth is round
That puppy mills are bad.
That the biewer breed will be a breed.
That wolves are not pack animals.
That women should vote and should be equal.
That slaver is wrong.
That beating your child is wrong...why the SPCA came about in the first place was to stop child abuse ( yes I know it still happens but back then children where owned).... they all got beat on and look things changed.

For me it is truly one dog at a time. One owner at time.

If many in the board want to laugh go right ahead and do so, but humbly that is it in a nut shell. For me it is not ok to hurt a dog in the name of training and doing so is not anything less then abuse. Just cause we can make a dog do something does not mean we have the right to do so or should. Does not mean we let them run wild either we can control without force.


JL

Yeah but you're whole idea goes right out the window for one important reason... he doesn't abuse or hurt dogs. The end.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yeah but you're whole idea goes right out the window for one important reason... he doesn't abuse or hurt dogs. The end.

First I do not need to have the last word I just come back and comment on someone else posts like this and the one that says I need the last word. When a post one like this in the face of continued facts it just silly.
This is a chat and a chat is two sided means that one person says one thing and another post something else and it goes back and forth. All this is,is a chat.

Blister when the Board that govenrs the vetss in the USA says he does.
When there are a boat load of PHD and behaviour DVM that do. Along with far more experinced dog trainers then I say he does
When the american Humann soicety says he does.You are flying in the face of facts with the comment that he does not. You may not want to see it you may even have to look hard at the way you have done things in the passed.

We do the best we can with the informantion we have at the time and when we know better we do better. Does not mean that we need to beat on ourselves or others as they did it the old way. Does mean we need to keep on learning. Someday as sceince contiunes to progress the way we do many things will change again and become out dated. We have to change and grow. We stand around with our heads in the sand things like global warming and many other needed changes be passed over cause we are to afraid that we made a mistake in the passed. That is not it at all. It is the fact that science is fliud and we learn things everyday so we cange to.
Maybe one day this suppossed new way of dogs will be out dated and we have to I do not know use a speical comunitaion device to train. I hope yet again if I am around for what ever changes there are that I have the courage to crossover and change too.
And if someon comes back and comments again on my post or tries to belittle me and tell me to be quiet as tehy are afraid I may be speaking a little truth I will post again. Not a thing to do with having the last word is call self defence.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by capt_noonie

Who the heck said Cesar abuses his dogs?!!! That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

I think most of the time people have no choice but to call Cesar b/c THEY are the ones mentally scarring their dogs, that's why they have behaviour problems.

I totall agree. NOT raising or training your dog properly is abusive. Just like spoiling a child, they have a much easier time in life if they are corrected right from the beginning.

It's all just common sense. He has studied dog behavior and he knows how they communicate and he copies it. Plain and simple.

[chachi]

Ive never seen Cesar abuse any dogs either and Ive seen some episodes where hes dealt with pretty aggressive dogs

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Actually what you seeing is a cooking show for dogs. It takes more then one day to do what he does it is edited down to a 1/2 hour show that makes it look simple and easy.

As for working and living with an aggressive dog how does 7 years of living with an aggressive dog work for you.
I have one that is as bad if not worse then many Ceaser deals with as it is genetic based and chemially made worse aggression and can not be worked in the manner at all that Ceaser does it as she would be dead.

7 Years or hard work with a dog that should have been put down and that methods just like ceasers made far worse.
When I speak training it is from the point of view of keeping a very aggressive fearful anixety dog alive and proventing what happened to her happen to another.
Oh and before you come back and go well it is only one there are others I have helped over the years as well.
I play with the ones that will bite... 5 time biter before the age of a year in one dog. So please do not try and say i do not have a clue.

JL

So you used a different method and it worked. No one ever claimed that Cesar's method is the ONLY way. It's just a very effective way.

What is cruel about learning a dogs language and speaking to them in thier own language? You can take the time to teach them ours and go that route too.

Dogs become vicious when they have been handled in a way that does not make sense to them. It takes someone who understands their language to get through to them.

If you have handled an abusive dog, good for you, but that does not make your way the ONLY way.

It's the end result that counts.

As for the Michael Vick dogs, they went to Dog Town and they rehabilitated them. That does not mean that Cesar (or you) could not have done the same.

[Wylie's Mom]

I understand this is a debate thread, and debates can get passionate (get out! )...but please try to be respectful of each other. It's anyone's right to either support or not support Cesar...but, let's not take it out on each other for having differing opinions.

I think good info will come of this thread if it can stay open...