Cesar debate thread

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I walk a lot dog-aggressive dogs at a shelter, and all of the dogs undergo a two week quarantine period when they first arrive, so they can't meet any dogs or people on the street. We can only touch them after we put gowns and gloves on. Also, we often have big, exuberant dogs that love other canines, but tend to scare people with their enthusiasm. I walk all of them easily, with a very simple method: when we see other dogs or people coming, we cross the street. If that's not possible, we go off to the side, and I give the dog a treat and distract them while the other dog passes.

I have my first rescue that goes completely insane with other dogs and it took a while to be able to get him comfortably with other dogs. He was pulled out of the pound in a kennel with several other large dogs and who knows what happened to him in the pound. Today he is much more comfortable but I NEVER put him into a situation that could trigger his fear factors.

It really is sad that many dogs end up in shelters because owners would not spend time with their dogs and now they are throw away animals. I applaud what you do and how you handle these dogs. Many people could not do what you do.

[QuickSilver]

Thank you! Trust me, I'm no great shakes, but I know how to cross the street.

I know I am going on and on and on (and ON). But it's freaking me out, man! Now there is a sheep dog who keeps barking when the boyfriend plays the guitar. This dog is not alpha AT ALL, he has just never been taught that people don't want him to bark while they are playing music. Cesar comes in, jerks the dog's leash around, scares him into rolling over on his back, and everyone is happy that the dog is calm and submissive! The bf actually thinks the dog is going to sleep!!

It just seems like these owners are clueless, and Cesar is going to leave them clueless, just in a different way.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Argh, this show really drives me crazy. I'm watching him train a couple with two boxers, and he is using prong collars, which are totally unnecessary, AND encouraging the owners to give corrections when the dogs are not doing anything wrong, not even LOOKING at other dogs! Don't be fooled, those prong collars DO hurt. They are not magic. If someone put prongs around your neck, you'd be really careful around them too. A gentle leader is completely effective and not cruel - it puts you in charge of the dog's head.

He's also not using some basic techniques to diffuse dog on dog aggression, like keeping the dog on his far side, or just TEACHING the dog to be calm and look at its owner when other dogs pass by.

However, the owners actually said that one of the boxers had bitten several other dogs and they had been warned the dog would have to be put down if it happened again. So Cesar's method is better than the dog dying. That's where the ARGH comes in. I kind of wish I could just say I loved him or hated him.

===================

Also, I hate to say this, but you can easily tell that while one of the dogs is staying very still and submissive, she is most certainly not calm. She is constantly licking her lips, rounded back, tucked tail, ears back, AND almost the entire white of her eye is showing. She is very stressed.

I have not seen this episode you're referring to, but I dog sit a 4 year old Boxer 4 days a week and there is NOTHING you can do to control him around other dogs, besides using a shock collar. They have worked and worked, had many different trainers over. Shocking was the last option. The first year in a half of his life was spent going to dog parks, going on walks, etc, and he was FINE. Then something set in at two years old and they have no idea what. They have been trying and trying for two years. Boxers are STRONG animals and the prong collars sometimes may be necessary. You can be very rough with them... and it will not hurt them. Sometimes simply keeping the dog on the other side is not possible. They are extremely strong. Also, in the majority of the episodes I've seen where the dogs are wearing prong collars, choke chains, or shock collars.. the OWNER already had them on the dog, not Cesar. In a recent episode I just saw yesterday (you can view it on Hulu.com, it's the dog named Bella) he actually told the owner he could get MORE control without the choke collar. Cesar generally places his little rope/leash looking thing high up on the neck for more control. I don't really see him actually BRING the choke chains, etc, to the home with him. The dogs usually already have him. And too, I'm surprised he didn't actually say anything about the dog still not being calm because in most episodes I've seen, he will get the dog in a lay down position or whatever but he almost ALWAYS points out "She's still not calm!" I always hear him telling owners "just because you made her sit, doesn't mean shes calm submissive" Also, I'm not sure what season you're watching, I started watching mainly last year... but from the re-runs I've seen, he definitely has softened his ways a lot in the recent seasons. Go to Hulu - Watch your favorites. Anytime. For free. and type in Dog Whisperer and see a few of his recent episodes. I'd actually be interested to hear your opinion on him in those!

By the way, how was Victoria's show tonight? I missed it.

[QuickSilver]

Okay, I will watch his later episodes. I would only do this for you!

I don't have tremendous experience with boxers, but I have some, and I've worked with very large, strong dogs. This rescue I volunteer at ONLY uses harnesses, though they attach to the collar for safety, so imagine trying to control a 120 lb dog in a harness. It is definitely a different perspective to walk an animal that can pull you off your feet. However, I believe Cesar should tell people not to use prong collars, and I do not agree with his high collar method at all. He was actually pulling dogs off their feet, and these dogs were not even particularly aggressive.

With a gentle leader, you have full control, because if you control a dog's head, you control its body. You pull, the head MUST follow.

I'm watching Victoria on Tivo now!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, I will watch his later episodes. I would only do this for you!

I don't have tremendous experience with boxers, but I have some, and I've worked with very large, strong dogs. This rescue I volunteer at ONLY uses harnesses, though they attach to the collar for safety, so imagine trying to control a 120 lb dog in a harness. It is definitely a different perspective to walk an animal that can pull you off your feet. However, I believe Cesar should tell people not to use prong collars, and I do not agree with his high collar method at all. He was actually pulling dogs off their feet, and these dogs were not even particularly aggressive.

With a gentle leader, you have full control, because if you control a dog's head, you control its body. You pull, the head MUST follow.

I'm watching Victoria on Tivo now!

I totally love the Gentle Leader and Easy Walk harnesses and think they should definitely be used first, for sure.

Also, I totally agree. It's totally different working with larger dogs than working with smaller dogs. Cesar's shows are generally aimed towards larger dogs and some of his methods should definitely NOT be used on a 5lb Yorkie.

I think the main difference between Cesar and Victoria is that Cesar's cases are often ("often" not always) really tough cases where they're using Cesar as a total last resort or the dog could be PTS. Highly-aggressive, or highly problematic dogs. So a lot of the things he does should NOT be done by the typical dog owner watching at home. However, everyone can try to portray his calm energy and his exercise, discipline, affection rule. That can work for any dog. Victoria's show, on the other hand, focuses more on things every day normal people can do with their dogs, which would be the only reason I would like her show a bit more. They are techniques that can be used by a regular dog owner. With Cesar's cases... most people do not have the luxury of bringing their dog into a pack of 30+ dogs who are totally calm submissive. That's just not reality.

[YorkieMother]

Ok will get back still having to tend to a pup but cindy as always has made some very reponsible and right on comments and I love to add more later.

One thing I briefly noticed is someone said that it ok to use on big dog a zap collar, My point of learning and reference is all dogs.

Also the easy walk harness for dog that have high end aggression not a great way to control to much room form them to duck dive and spin. Not looking for a fight just droping quick comments so I can come back and remeber what I want to get into more.

Again I not gone just cuddling a we girl with a very sick tummy. That is even more important that learning and teaching right now.

JL

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Britster

I totally love the Gentle Leader and Easy Walk harnesses and think they should definitely be used first, for sure.

Also, I totally agree. It's totally different working with larger dogs than working with smaller dogs. Cesar's shows are generally aimed towards larger dogs and some of his methods should definitely NOT be used on a 5lb Yorkie.

I think the main difference between Cesar and Victoria is that Cesar's cases are often ("often" not always) really tough cases where they're using Cesar as a total last resort or the dog could be PTS. Highly-aggressive, or highly problematic dogs. So a lot of the things he does should NOT be done by the typical dog owner watching at home. However, everyone can try to portray his calm energy and his exercise, discipline, affection rule. That can work for any dog. Victoria's show, on the other hand, focuses more on things every day normal people can do with their dogs, which would be the only reason I would like her show a bit more. They are techniques that can be used by a regular dog owner. With Cesar's cases... most people do not have the luxury of bringing their dog into a pack of 30+ dogs who are totally calm submissive. That's just not reality.

I am going to watch his later shows, and I totally think Jackson is lucky to have you. If people watch Cesar's shows and get "stay calm, exercise your dog, discipline consistently, and don't spoil your dog or think it's a human", then that is great. However, I have to be honest, I was very disturbed by the shows I watched today. These dogs were not hard luck cases, they were friendly, normal dogs who had some behavior problems.

What I saw was totally clueless owners who had no idea how to communicate rules to their pets. It wasn't like the sheep dog was thinking "humans don't want me to bark, but I'm alpha, and I will do whatever I want! So woofity, woof, woof woof to you!" The dog was thinking, "I'm excited! And I'm telling the world about it! Yay! Woof, woof!"

Then Cesar came in, and basically used harsh punishments to communicate simple rules to these dogs. These dogs, being fairly gentle, just untrained, would probably have done fine on basic positive training. They responded to negative training too, it just seems very unfair to me that that was the first method used. Cesar started hurting them with the collar, and they figured out as fast as they could what they needed to do to get this guy to stop yanking them and kicking them.

Some people have said you shouldn't have to bribe your dog all the time, and I will admit, that's where I am with Thor. Treats should be used to teach a dog something, so he has a marker towards the right result, and to encourage him to perform difficult tasks. But make no mistake, Cesar is not using neutral methods, he is using negative methods.

I believe him that he's observed how dogs interact with each other, but I am not convinced that his dogs are processing his "bites" on the neck and hips as doggie communication. I think they are just processing it as unpleasant sensations they want to prevent. Also keep in mind: in dog packs, do dogs love their alpha? Would they die for their alpha? No, in fact, some dogs are scheming to attack the alpha and move up. Your dog does not see you the same way he would a dominant dog.

[QuickSilver]

This is such an emotional roller coaster for me. It's hard to hate a man who teaches a girl with cerebral palsy to walk her dogs. His sessions cover so much different stuff, and some of what he does is perfectly fine. Some of it really isn't though.

Here is my take on Cesar having simpler methods, because he uses the "shhhht" sound in so many scenarios. To me, this is a command that says, "drop what you're doing and pay attention to me", or maybe "take it down a notch." I would consider it similar to my "ah-ah-ah" sound for Thor, which means, "reconsider what you are doing." This command can be taught like any other. I think in this case, Cesar is "whispering", in that he is using a challenging, dominant stance that most dogs will respond to with a pacifying signal: sitting, lying down, looking away. Sometimes I think they are just startled. Karen Pryor talks about teaching paired commands, like Speak/Quiet. You get the dog going with Speak! Speak! Speak! and then suddenly you give a completely different signal, Quiet! The dog will probably look at you and think huh? I don't know that signal. What do I do? And they are usually Quiet while they think that. That's also often the start of learning Stay.

I know others here might consider this a "no reward marker" and be against it, but personally, I think it's effective.

[QuickSilver]

Oh my goodness. Now he's usually completely unnecessary force on the poor spaniel. I need to stop posting in the middle of episodes. This show is certainly evoking a lot of emotion in me.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by Britster

I totally love the Gentle Leader and Easy Walk harnesses and think they should definitely be used first, for sure.

Also, I totally agree. It's totally different working with larger dogs than working with smaller dogs. Cesar's shows are generally aimed towards larger dogs and some of his methods should definitely NOT be used on a 5lb Yorkie.

I think the main difference between Cesar and Victoria is that Cesar's cases are often ("often" not always) really tough cases where they're using Cesar as a total last resort or the dog could be PTS. Highly-aggressive, or highly problematic dogs. So a lot of the things he does should NOT be done by the typical dog owner watching at home. However, everyone can try to portray his calm energy and his exercise, discipline, affection rule. That can work for any dog. Victoria's show, on the other hand, focuses more on things every day normal people can do with their dogs, which would be the only reason I would like her show a bit more. They are techniques that can be used by a regular dog owner. With Cesar's cases... most people do not have the luxury of bringing their dog into a pack of 30+ dogs who are totally calm submissive. That's just not reality.

I agree thats why I said alot of his training is geared towards bigger dogs. But I do think there are things smalller dog owners can get from some of his episodes to use also. I really believe in his exercise, discipline, affection rule also

[chachi]

I saw an episode today with an akita that was very fearful of the leash and wouldnt walk on the leash. Cesar was very patient with him putting the leash off and on when the dog was calm and not so tense. He then took the dog to this wooded park to try to get him to walk. Cesar lifted up the dogs hind legs like a wheelbarrel effect and the dog walked a few steps then cesar dropped his legs and he walked a little bit on all fours. When the dog tensed up again he lifted up the hind legs again and repeated that untill the dog walked on the leash with all four legs. This was the first time the dog had ever been exploring anywhere but his own yard. He also took him to his rehabilitation center and had him swim on the leash. The owner was able to take him on walks, to be groomed for the first time and to go to the vet for the first time. It was a good episode

[chachi]

Originally Posted by chachi

I saw an episode today with an akita that was very fearful of the leash and wouldnt walk on the leash. Cesar was very patient with him putting the leash off and on when the dog was calm and not so tense. He then took the dog to this wooded park to try to get him to walk. Cesar lifted up the dogs hind legs like a wheelbarrel effect and the dog walked a few steps then cesar dropped his legs and he walked a little bit on all fours. When the dog tensed up again he lifted up the hind legs again and repeated that untill the dog walked on the leash with all four legs. This was the first time the dog had ever been exploring anywhere but his own yard. He also took him to his rehabilitation center and had him swim on the leash. The owner was able to take him on walks, to be groomed for the first time and to go to the vet for the first time. It was a good episode

I didnt describe the wheelbarrel effect very good. Cesar lifted the dog up at the back of the stomach so his hind legs were in the air lifted up

[Mommy2Lacey]

Originally Posted by Britster

I haven't seen the particular episode you're talking about so I can't comment on that. But I have a question... why is it OK for a dog to bite a human but a human can't "bite" a dog back? So, it's okay for the dog to do that to me but I can't do it back? I don't know, that just doesn't make sense to me. For example, if a little Chi was maybe biting on my feet, trying to attack me, I'm supposed to just allow it since I'm only allowed to use "positive" training? Sorry, but I'm going to let him know that's not okay and I'm bigger than you, lol.

Also, question, why shouldn't you let a dog surrender to you? It's much like punishing a child when they do something wrong... when you send them to their room to think about what they're doing and then they finally give in and break down and come down and apologize to you because they realize what they did was wrong.

And, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if making a dog summit to you and surrender is soo very life threatening to them, why are all the dogs he works with still happy, wagging their tail and a lot of the dogs he works with will give him kisses and be so excited to see him? He's obviously not psychologically harming the dog.

My dad's dog, Lily, she knows when she's done something wrong. If she starts growling at Jackson, all my step-mom has to do is walk over to her, above her, with her hands on her hips and say "Lily..." and Lily surrenders in that sense, by giving her kisses rather than attacking Jackson.

I am no pro and just a new mommy who read's alot. But I had to share one of my childhood stories about the biting thing. All I know is when I was a kid(3rd grade) my grandma got a new dog we named Hippie. He bite me when I went to pick him up once and being a kid and without thinking, I grabbed his back and bit him back. Yes, I got in trouble and was told not to do that again. But me and that dog became the best of friend's for 21 years after that. Yes, 21 years! He lived to be 22 and saw many many kids during that time, but never bit anyone ever again.

Would I bite a dog again? No, I guess not. However, I did bite my daughter once when she wouldn't stop biting her brother. I asked if she liked the way that felt. She said no it hurts. I replied yes, then let's not do it to others.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by chachi

I saw an episode today with an akita that was very fearful of the leash and wouldnt walk on the leash. Cesar was very patient with him putting the leash off and on when the dog was calm and not so tense. He then took the dog to this wooded park to try to get him to walk. Cesar lifted up the dogs hind legs like a wheelbarrel effect and the dog walked a few steps then cesar dropped his legs and he walked a little bit on all fours. When the dog tensed up again he lifted up the hind legs again and repeated that untill the dog walked on the leash with all four legs. This was the first time the dog had ever been exploring anywhere but his own yard. He also took him to his rehabilitation center and had him swim on the leash. The owner was able to take him on walks, to be groomed for the first time and to go to the vet for the first time. It was a good episode

I saw that, too! Was an amazing case.
And what I love about Cesar is HOW excited he gets when the dog makes progress! He was like "Yesss! That is so good" or something along those lines. You can tell he's very proud when the animals take a step forward. That was a very good episode. When he started leaping in and out of the truck by himself, that was awesome!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Mommy2Lacey

I am no pro and just a new mommy who read's alot. But I had to share one of my childhood stories about the biting thing. All I know is when I was a kid(3rd grade) my grandma got a new dog we named Hippie. He bite me when I went to pick him up once and being a kid and without thinking, I grabbed his back and bit him back. Yes, I got in trouble and was told not to do that again. But me and that dog became the best of friend's for 21 years after that. Yes, 21 years! He lived to be 22 and saw many many kids during that time, but never bit anyone ever again.

Would I bite a dog again? No, I guess not. However, I did bite my daughter once when she wouldn't stop biting her brother. I asked if she liked the way that felt. She said no it hurts. I replied yes, then let's not do it to others.

LOL, yep. And wow, 22 year old dog! Amazing. What kind of dog?

And I've done that before to my little brother... he bit me before and I did it back -- never did it to me again. My mom was apparently a huge biter as a child, well my grandpa (her dad) bit her back one day and she NEVER bit again, lol. Usually when dogs are biting, they don't know how bad it actually hurts. What's the harm in doing it back? Obviously we are NOT dogs and can not exactly portray what another dogs bite would feel like to them, but that's how they teach each other. That's how mommy dogs teach their pups about biting and why it's so important they stay with their mother until 8-12 weeks.