Cesar debate thread

[QuickSilver]

Hey, I just thought I'd start a thread specifically to discuss Cesar's methods so people don't get their threads hijaacked.

So, how about that Cesar guy? Do you love him or hate him or what?

[capt_noonie]

i like him. I like his accent, I think it's cute. I think some of his methods cannot be used by the regular person, ie taking the dogs to his "camp" thingy with all his calm, submissive dogs.

Has anyone checked out his dog foods?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by capt_noonie

i like him. I like his accent, I think it's cute. I think some of his methods cannot be used by the regular person, ie taking the dogs to his "camp" thingy with all his calm, submissive dogs.

Has anyone checked out his dog foods?

I agree.

I LOVE Cesar.
And yes... Jackson ate the Dog Whisperer puppy food for a brief period of time and LOVED it. The only reason I stopped was the price, it wasn't extremely, extremely expensive (I believe it was $15.99 for a 5lb bag of puppy food, and $14.99 for adult) and I now get Innova for $12.99 for a 6lb bag. Also, the puppy kibbles were too small for Jackson, he likes bigger. But he very much liked it. The ingredients are really good, I think there's better out there, but there's nothing alarming or wrong with the ingredients. Alot of organic ingredients. I still buy him the canned food to mix with the Innova.

[Britster]

I'm just gonna copy 'n paste one of my old posts to put in here...


I think it's highly ignorant of people to state Cesar is abusive to his dogs because that statement is so bluntly false. Without knowing Cesar (or you, for that matter) and just seeing the dogs at the center on TV... they are so NOT abused. Puh-lease. If that ain't the biggest load of crap I've heard, then I don't know what is. All those dogs are extremely happy around Cesar and happy in general, and dogs don't act for the television.

I think trainers are just jealous of him because he actually has success. He does more than just making the dog rely on a treat to do something. You shouldn't have to have a treat in your hand to make your dog listen. I'm ALL for positive re-enforcement. I think it's great. My dog is very food motivated and it's a great thing to have and be able to do. Cesar even uses food occasionally. It all depends on the situation, as you know.

It annoys me to no end how much crap Cesar gets that he doesn't deserve. He damn well loves all the dogs he encounters and if anyone thinks he is doing this to abuse or damage the dogs mentally... you may need your eyes checked. Yes, we only see what's on TV, but I've done tons of research on him (among with all sorts of training methods) and you can just SEE the dogs are not emotionally scarred by Cesar. They lick him, they give him affection, they wag their tails. It's not like when he comes into a room, they stick their tail under with their ears all the way back, absolutely terrified.

The thing is, Cesar does not claim to be a typical "sit-stay-down" trainer. He claims to train PEOPLE how to handle dogs, and rehabilitates dogs. His cases are normally not very "typical" in most episodes as they're more extreme than anything else. Sometimes dogs NEED a quick tap on the shoulder or a quick tug to snap them out of it. That's not to say you should KICK your dog. Cesar has stated MANY times he's not hurting, injuring or kicking or hitting a dog.... the dog is not in pain when he gives a quick tap. It's no worse than training a horse. You kick the horse to get it goin'. kids used to be SPANKED when they did things wrong, and I don't think children who were spanked are mentally and emotionally scarred for life. My parents were spanked and my grandparents were too and they'll tell ya one thing... they never did it again. I'm not an advocate for spanking your children or anything. I'm just sayin'.

You also have to remember... we live in America where dogs are SPOILED ROTTEN. A lot of times they don't get to even be dogs because their humans smother them so much. Cesar grew up on the streets of Mexico where dogs were "wild" or stray, so he got to see the TRUE interaction of a pack without it's human handlers to ruin them. Most of the time, it IS the owners fault, and not the dogs. So, yes, of course he is going to have a different viewpoint. Don't we all?

Now, I'm not a professional in any way, but I feel I've done my research and know a hell of a lot more about dogs in general and their psychology than the general typical dog owner next door so I feel my opinion should count for something.

I just think it's very unfair to single him out and I feel the need to stick up for him, even though he could care less about your opinions. What he does works, he's a millionaire, and he's a good human being with good moral values. Is everything he does right? NO! He's made mistakes, who hasn't? He's admitted to making mistakes and updating his ways and discovering new training methods. He's not stuck on ONE idea.

His philosophy of excersise, discipline and affection WORKS. I don't care what anybody says. It's worked for Jackson so that's all I can say. It's a good philosophy for children as well.

On another spectrum (I'm sorry this is getting so long, I hope someone is still reading) when you look at dog trainer Victoria Stillwell, who trainers seem to value more... she really focuses on the SAME exact things as Cesar, without the "touch" but she also brings up dominance issues, who is head of the household, and basically everything Cesar says, just in a softer way.

[MizMaRLeysMoM86]

Even though I don't really follow his "dogs are not humans" motto LoL I went to the library here and rented a couple seasons of his show one time and spent the whole day vegging out and watching them. My DH loves his too. Sometimes my DH will catch Marley off guard and do the whole "sksss" noise that he makes as he touches the back of there neck to let the dog know he's in charge LoL

[smartpuppiepets]

I Like him a lot, i got one of his books as a gift from someone who has one of our puppies... and i will repeat her words:"nothing that an experienced and diligent dog owner have not already figured out !"
His show certainly helps a lot of new owners.
As far i have seen i never saw any abuse or anything closed on Cesar's part , and he is a great defender of adoption and rehabilitation, which is !
Again, i think that new dog and new puppy owners can only benefit from these shows, the other dog tv show also is nice, with the victoria girl... she has different methods that also works and that is how it goes... different trainers use different methods... as long as there is no abuse it is great help for those a little lost with their furry kids !

[capt_noonie]

Originally Posted by Britster

I'm just gonna copy 'n paste one of my old posts to put in here...


I think it's highly ignorant of people to state Cesar is abusive to his dogs because that statement is so bluntly false. Without knowing Cesar (or you, for that matter) and just seeing the dogs at the center on TV... they are so NOT abused. Puh-lease. If that ain't the biggest load of crap I've heard, then I don't know what is. All those dogs are extremely happy around Cesar and happy in general, and dogs don't act for the television.

I think trainers are just jealous of him because he actually has success. He does more than just making the dog rely on a treat to do something. You shouldn't have to have a treat in your hand to make your dog listen. I'm ALL for positive re-enforcement. I think it's great. My dog is very food motivated and it's a great thing to have and be able to do. Cesar even uses food occasionally. It all depends on the situation, as you know.

It annoys me to no end how much crap Cesar gets that he doesn't deserve. He damn well loves all the dogs he encounters and if anyone thinks he is doing this to abuse or damage the dogs mentally... you may need your eyes checked. Yes, we only see what's on TV, but I've done tons of research on him (among with all sorts of training methods) and you can just SEE the dogs are not emotionally scarred by Cesar. They lick him, they give him affection, they wag their tails. It's not like when he comes into a room, they stick their tail under with their ears all the way back, absolutely terrified.

The thing is, Cesar does not claim to be a typical "sit-stay-down" trainer. He claims to train PEOPLE how to handle dogs, and rehabilitates dogs. His cases are normally not very "typical" in most episodes as they're more extreme than anything else. Sometimes dogs NEED a quick tap on the shoulder or a quick tug to snap them out of it. That's not to say you should KICK your dog. Cesar has stated MANY times he's not hurting, injuring or kicking or hitting a dog.... the dog is not in pain when he gives a quick tap. It's no worse than training a horse. You kick the horse to get it goin'. kids used to be SPANKED when they did things wrong, and I don't think children who were spanked are mentally and emotionally scarred for life. My parents were spanked and my grandparents were too and they'll tell ya one thing... they never did it again. I'm not an advocate for spanking your children or anything. I'm just sayin'.

You also have to remember... we live in America where dogs are SPOILED ROTTEN. A lot of times they don't get to even be dogs because their humans smother them so much. Cesar grew up on the streets of Mexico where dogs were "wild" or stray, so he got to see the TRUE interaction of a pack without it's human handlers to ruin them. Most of the time, it IS the owners fault, and not the dogs. So, yes, of course he is going to have a different viewpoint. Don't we all?

Now, I'm not a professional in any way, but I feel I've done my research and know a hell of a lot more about dogs in general and their psychology than the general typical dog owner next door so I feel my opinion should count for something.

I just think it's very unfair to single him out and I feel the need to stick up for him, even though he could care less about your opinions. What he does works, he's a millionaire, and he's a good human being with good moral values. Is everything he does right? NO! He's made mistakes, who hasn't? He's admitted to making mistakes and updating his ways and discovering new training methods. He's not stuck on ONE idea.

His philosophy of excersise, discipline and affection WORKS. I don't care what anybody says. It's worked for Jackson so that's all I can say. It's a good philosophy for children as well.

On another spectrum (I'm sorry this is getting so long, I hope someone is still reading) when you look at dog trainer Victoria Stillwell, who trainers seem to value more... she really focuses on the SAME exact things as Cesar, without the "touch" but she also brings up dominance issues, who is head of the household, and basically everything Cesar says, just in a softer way.

Who the heck said Cesar abuses his dogs?!!! That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

I think most of the time people have no choice but to call Cesar b/c THEY are the ones mentally scarring their dogs, that's why they have behaviour problems.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by capt_noonie

Who the heck said Cesar abuses his dogs?!!! That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

I think most of the time people have no choice but to call Cesar b/c THEY are the ones mentally scarring their dogs, that's why they have behaviour problems.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...t=cesar+millan

This was one thread

[livingdustmops]

It is no secret that I am opposed to his methods and I have also studied many books and articles in regards to this. I do listen to experts to draw my conclusions from this. I believe dogs should only be trained with postive methods. I realize many people can't understand what the harms is but many dogs have been mentally harmed by bad trainers and bad owners.

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: AVSAB Letter to Merial | Facebook

AVSAB Letter to Merial
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 at 6:59am
Dear Dr. Line,

The executive board of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior is deeply troubled to learn that Merial, a leader in the veterinary healthcare industry, is using Cesar Millan in a promotional campaign for Heartgard and Frontline. We are even more disturbed to find that Merial is cross-promoting Mr. Millan's behavior video as part of this campaign. Merial's executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT) have uniformly spoken out against the punishment-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television show "The Dog Whisperer."

At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. At worst, Mr. Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter. Merial claims to "enhance the health, well-being, and performance of animals.” The use of Mr. Millan as part of an advertising campaign speaks otherwise.

In these difficult economic times, it may be understandable that Merial would want to use a "celebrity" to advertise its products in a direct-to-consumer fashion. However, had Merial taken the time to investigate, it would have found that Mr. Millan's philosophy runs counter to the standard-of-care promoted by veterinary behaviorists and taught at veterinary schools.

We are deeply saddened that Merial's executives are not more supportive of the veterinary behavior community and its efforts to promote knowledgeable, scientifically-based, humane training methods. We remain concerned that your company's support of Mr. Millan’s controversial training methods through the distribution of his video and financial support of his show will contribute to the number of difficult dogs and injured owners that we have to eventually console, counsel, and reeducate. Perhaps Merial would like to support our efforts to counteract the negative impact of this unfortunate marketing choice that may ultimately serve to alienate educated veterinarians, dog trainers, and owners alike.

Sincerely,

E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD (President)
John Ciribassi, DVM, DACVB (Immediate Past President)
Karen Sueda, DVM, DACVB (President Elect)
Kari Krause, DVM
Kelly Morgan, DVM
Valli Parthasarathy, PhD, DVM
Sophia Yin, PhD, DVM
Laurie Bergman, VMD, DACVB

[livingdustmops]

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan
American Humane Association - "Dog Whisperer Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful"
New York Times/Mark Derr - "Pack of Lies"
Esquire Magazine/Curtis Pesmen - "Misguided Expert of the Year"
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University
Paul Owens, the Original Dog Whisperer - "A Bone To Pick?"
Michael Linder - "Dog Owners Want To Bury Cesar?"
USA TODAY - "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Millan Sued by TV Producer
Newsday - "A 'Tough Love' Dog Whisperer Spurs Some Yelps"
DailyPress.com/Steve Dale - "Dog Whisperer Makes a Lousy Role-Model For Dog Owners"
The Anti-Cesar Millan -- Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?
IAABC Concerns Regarding Child Safety on National Geographic's Dog Whisperer Show
From the BLOG of RICHARD BELZER: "FIRST DO NO HARM"
QUOTES FROM EXPERTS:
World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers
“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”

Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO
"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."

Vyolet Michaels, CTC, CPDT (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ
"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."

Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC
to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

Steve Dale
"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column “My Pet World” (Tribune Media Services). He’s also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale’s Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago. Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians). His books include “American Zoos” and “DogGone Chicago.” Steve’s appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago. Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve’s a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he’s been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook. He's certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.

[QuickSilver]

... and we're off!

I was disappointed to hear that Cesar used a static mat in a recent episode. That seems like such overkill when a basic part of dog training is making your dogs wait at the door.

Several people have said that the dogs look very uncomfortable when handled by Cesar. I have a lot of eppy's saved on Amazon VoD... I keep meaning to download them again and see.

[livingdustmops]

I have all of his books and DVD's but what really got to me is that "his pack is run 6 to 8 hours a day". No wonder his dogs just hang. I still watch his show from time to time but his methods scare the heck out of me especially with Yorkies because many of them react due to fear aggression. I watched him Alpha roll a dog that was scared to death and I just cannot agree with this method..I wouldn't do it to a child and I won't do it to a dog.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

... and we're off!

I was disappointed to hear that Cesar used a static mat in a recent episode. That seems like such overkill when a basic part of dog training is making your dogs wait at the door.

Several people have said that the dogs look very uncomfortable when handled by Cesar. I have a lot of eppy's saved on Amazon VoD... I keep meaning to download them again and see.

I don't agree with static mats, however in the episode that Cesar used one, the dog constantly jumped over a ten foot fence. He would climb and really injure himself and get loose. I believe it was a Boxer. He placed a static mat where the dog would always jump over the gate. And since then, he has not been loose. I feel like in a case like that... What else are you supposed to do?

[QuickSilver]

I guess I would ask, WWVD (What Would Victoria Do)? But you are right, I haven't seen the episode, so I can't give an educated opinion. Not that I let that stop me!

[RoxyLuv]

That's just it, QuickSilver. The boxer wasn't being trained & totally out of control, which is mostly what Cesar works with. I don't like the electronic control devices either, but sometimes an exception needs to be taken quickly.

I've watched Cesar over the years & I believe he has softened his ways. I've watched the reruns time after time. He seems to be learning new things. He never was one to do typical dog obedience as he works with very troubled dogs. Not sure he even knew much about sit-down-stay type of training. Don't think I've ever seen him work with puppies as many of us are working with.

I've seen him work with dogs who have had every dog problem we've ever dealt with over the many years we've had dogs. I feel so bad that those problems could have been fixed so easily if we just had known how. The problems we had could have been fixed gently too. I've learned a lot from him. I like Victoria too, but I really don't see much difference in what she teaches other than her softer approach. And I do see her taking an dominant/alpha/leader stance while she works. Just so you know, my definition of dominant does not mean abusive.

Basically I think we have something to learn from most any trainer regardless of their approach. I'm always looking for better ways of doing things & open to them.