my yorkies are rare

[Toby'sMama]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK
The Biewers and the partis are basically the same dog, just from two different lines. But the parti gene exists in both lines ad that is what has caused the parti coloring.


YES!!! Germany has just kept records and set forth standards for 20 years now. They all have only YORKIE heritage.

I just wanted to add to this post just a bit... Although the Biewers and Partis both carry the same piebald gene, they are not the same dog. The difference is in the standards. (as well as bloodlines originating in Germany) The Partis do not have any set standard, while the Biewer does.

As Kathy has pointed out already, the Biewer standards are the same as the Yorkshire Terrier standards, with the exception of the colors and the tail. Also, regarding their coats, faces, size, etc., I have seen the same differences in the Biewers as in the traditional Yorkies. Some have cottony coats, some have silk... some have smaller faces, some have longer and larger ones, some are 2 and 3 lbs, and some are 10, 11, and up. Some have ears that stand up, and some are floppy... There are good and bad examples of the breed coming over from Germany... and also irresponsible breeding here in the states are contributing to a whole variety of problems being bred into the lines. Just like the irresponsible breeding of our beloved traditional Yorkies. Unfortunately, greedy people do not care about the betterment of ANY breed.

In my opinion, when and if either the Parti and/or the Biewer gets a chance to compete in AKC Confirmation shows -- I don't see them being judged against the traditional Yorkies until they go into Best of Group. There's a long way to go before we get to this point -- and many "close-minded" people fighting against it who haven't done any "open-minded" research on these beautiful colored dogs!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I think that is still a question that is very much in debate. Sure the present owners/breeders may know that both parents are Yorkies but somewhere back in the line, there could have been a mistake. So, the DNA testing reveals the parents are verified, maybe even the grandparents, but there could be a cross-breeding mistake decades back in the line that is just now surfacing. The DNA testing does not verify that the parents or the grandparents do not have some mixed-genes themselves.

I know from looking at some Yorkies even with traditional colors that there were some mistakes back in the line somewhere. That is why it took me quite a while to find the puppies I did buy. If a Yorkie has a Schnauzer muzzle for instance, chances are great that somewhere, maybe several generations ago, a Schnauzer got into the room when it was not suppose to. Same thing with poodle coats and different body styles. So, it is not a stretch for me to think if the colors are not right (parti), then there was probably a dog with white, allowed to get cozy at the wrong time. Maybe all the puppies looked Yorkie and the breeder decided her planned breeding was all that "took." But somewhere down the line, suddenly white turns up. When it does, no one may even know about the old accident that was the cause.

I follow your genetics example but I don't think that is the way it would work with Yorkie's hair color -- even with my limited H.S. genetics background -- your example would only be for one solid color traits or something like blue eyes vs brown eyes -- not for the variation of color in coats we are talking about. You might want to read the example explaining the piebald traits listed at this site: http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html -- it seems to be more specific and makes some very clear deductions.

This is very interesting -- I think I could really get into studying the genetics of the breed. Weird, I know!

Alliec1 is completely correct in her description of how the genetics work. She only used two of the possible colors of course. Since the Parti color shows up occadsionally there have to me more than just the two possibilities.

She just simplified it, because genetics gets very complicated.

No one is arguing that these dogs were derived from a variety of dogs, and I suppose it is possible that some where in it's far distant ancestry that there might have been a small furry white dog of some sort, maybe even a Westie.

But what this thread has concerned itself with is the fact that DNA testing has been done extensively on these dogs back more than one generation.

The breeder that I bought my parti carrier from has champion show dogs, so the AKC knew that the alleged ancestors were yorkies. Champiion yorkies.

Therefore, when they did the DNA testing to see if these offspring indeed did belong to the alleged parents and found out that the DNA matched, then they were certain that the ancestors were yorkies.

To be continued in a new post.................

[JeanieK]

Continued from previous post.

Theoretically, one cold have two AKC registered yorkies, they could buy a maltese or some other dog, and claim that their yorkies had a puppy, of traditional color, and register it as a yorkie.

They could then mate this "fake yorkie" with a traditional colored pups and get a tri colored pup which they alleged to have come from two yorkie parents. Because the maltese was registered as a yorkie.

If the DNA testing was done it would prove that this tri colored pup did indeed come from two registered yorkies.

That is where the showing and the reputation come in. If the ancestors have been shown and have championships to prove it, then it is obvious to the AKC that the ancestors rwere really truely yorkies and not just some imposterer

Does that all make sense.

I am sure there are a lot of registered yorkies out there that are not 100% yorkie. But that is not the case of the line of Partis that I am buying from.

Also if you get an AKC registered parti yorkie, it had to have been DNA'd before the AKC would register it. these are all done on a case by case basis.

And if your dogs did not come from reputable breeders, you might have trouble registering them.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Alliec1 is completely correct in her description of how the genetics work. She only used two of the possible colors of course. Since the Parti color shows up occadsionally there have to me more than just the two possibilities.

She just simplified it, because genetics gets very complicated.

No one is arguing that these dogs were derived from a variety of dogs, and I suppose it is possible that some where in it's far distant ancestry that there might have been a small furry white dog of some sort, maybe even a Westie. ..

Why do you want to argue? No -- she is not completely correct. I did not say she was wrong just that it did not work exactly that way when it applies to multi-color hair. Simplified, it really does not apply to what we are talking about -- multi-colors NOT just a BB/bb type situation. IF it was only a matter of BB/bb, then we would not see the completely out of character WHITE coat mixed in. That is the whole issue, not whether the dark color will be blue or black or whether blue or black is recessive or dominant but that there is an entirely different gene thrown in to the mix. And she did argue that the dogs were derived from a variety of dogs. She said and I quote, "Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese."
And the parti-gene DID come from another dog -- not the Yorkie. That is the point. Maybe that is what "some people are probably not understanding."

I am sure you are very proud of your Parti-colors -- you have every right to be. Maybe you are personalizing this just a bit as others are trying to understand the details. It is sometimes difficult to stay focused on the science, the facts when something as passionate as dog ownership is involved. I certainly have nothing against them as another breed of dogs. To me they look more like a shihtzu than a Yorkie, but if they are their own breed, then that is great for them. I would never buy a Yorkie from someone who is also breeding for the parti-color. I would worry that somewhere the white would mysteriously crop up. I hope that if it does become its own breed, people like you are taking care and attention to detail will prevail over so many trying to capitalize on a fad and slip something in to artifically come up with a parti-color. The DNA science will have to get better to keep these unscrupulous tactics from ruining what you and others are trying to accomplish. Good luck to you!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Why do you want to argue?

Because you didn't get her point.

No -- she is not completely correct. I did not say she was wrong just that it did not work exactly that way when it applies to multi-color hair. Simplified, it really does not apply to what we are talking about -- multi-colors NOT just a BB/bb type situation. IF it was only a matter of BB/bb, then we would not see the completely out of character WHITE coat mixed in. That is the whole issue, not whether the dark color will be blue or black or whether blue or black is recessive or dominant but that there is an entirely different gene thrown in to the mix.

That is what I said. I said, and she said it was a very simplified version. I said there are other possibilities, she just used a very simplified example. There has to be a parti colored gene in there somewhere but it could have come from way back 100 years ago. Does a maltese even carry a parti colored gene. If it does then why are Maltese always white?.

And she did argue that the dogs were derived from a variety of dogs. She said and I quote, "Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese."

Well if you want to go that route then all yorkies are mutts because they all came from mixed ancestry. But once the mix found it's way to becoming a breed of it's own and was given it's own name, and people were only breeding yorkie to yorkie it ceased being a "mutt." All dogs are a mix of some sort way back before they started keeping records.

And the parti-gene DID come from another dog -- not the Yorkie. That is the point. Maybe that is what "some people are probably not understanding."

What makes you so sure of that? What evidence do you have to prove that? Why are you so sure that it is not part of the original yorkie make up? There could be a lot of yorkies out there carrying the parti gene but untill they are mated to another yorkie who also carries the gene, it will not surface. That is why the gene will show up in a championship line, because the breeders of champions are usually the ones who do the in breeding or close line breeding and then gene has to show up on both sides before it will surface.

I am sure you are very proud of your Parti-colors -- you have every right to be. Maybe you are personalizing this just a bit as others are trying to understand the details. It is sometimes difficult to stay focused on the science, the facts when something as passionate as dog ownership is involved. I certainly have nothing against them as another breed of dogs. To me they look more like a shihtzu than a Yorkie, but if they are their own breed, then that is great for them. I would never buy a Yorkie from someone who is also breeding for the parti-color. I would worry that somewhere the white would mysteriously crop up. I hope that if it does become its own breed, people like you are taking care and attention to detail will prevail over so many trying to capitalize on a fad and slip something in to artifically come up with a parti-color. The DNA science will have to get better to keep these unscrupulous tactics from ruining what you and others are trying to accomplish. Good luck to you!

I assure you that I am not personalizing this, I did my research, and where the original gene came from is still a mystery to everyone, but it has been there for a very long time. This is not something that my breeder created, and she has had her own line of champuion dogs for a very long time. I don't care if the eventually classify them as a breed of their own, or change the standards to include the parti color. That doesn't matter to me at all.

I am attempting to get people to understand how and when this gene appears and that it is not something that has happened in the recent past.

No one is ruining anything. These dogs will make their own place in the record books just as the original yorkies did way back when. I'm sure there were breeders back then that fought against them becoming a breed of their own too. But the might little terriers survived.

[FlDebra]

QUOTE: Does a maltese even carry a parti colored gene. If it does then why are Maltese always white?.]QUOTE

It is not really a parti-colored gene. It is more complicated than that. IT is a recessive white series, but there are variations that produce a range of color from white spotting to all white. It depends on the variation of alleles. The reason I was saying that the previous simplified example did not really apply is because it is based on the idea that there is just dominant and recessive and dominant wins. With the white gene in dog's coats it is an exception -- in this case incomplete dominance. One site likens it to paint mixing giving the example of a flower where the red and white strains mix to produce pink. In the dogs case, it is not a matter of muddying the color, it is a combination of how much white appears. It goes on to explain recessive white series is complicated even more by modifier genes that increase or decrease the amount of white on the dogs. So -- yes the maltese has the gene to ensure it's white coat -- it is not a parti-colored gene -- it is a white one, but I am sure that there are much more complicated versions as well. To see all the possible combinations of alleles to produce everything from the all white, to small amounts of white spotting would be interesting. But to see all the possible combinations including the potential modifying genes would be amazing.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

QUOTE: Does a maltese even carry a parti colored gene. If it does then why are Maltese always white?.]QUOTE

It is not really a parti-colored gene. It is more complicated than that. IT is a recessive white series, but there are variations that produce a range of color from white spotting to all white. It depends on the variation of alleles. The reason I was saying that the previous simplified example did not really apply is because it is based on the idea that there is just dominant and recessive and dominant wins. With the white gene in dog's coats it is an exception -- in this case incomplete dominance. One site likens it to paint mixing giving the example of a flower where the red and white strains mix to produce pink. In the dogs case, it is not a matter of muddying the color, it is a combination of how much white appears. It goes on to explain recessive white series is complicated even more by modifier genes that increase or decrease the amount of white on the dogs. So -- yes the maltese has the gene to ensure it's white coat -- it is not a parti-colored gene -- it is a white one, but I am sure that there are much more complicated versions as well. To see all the possible combinations of alleles to produce everything from the all white, to small amounts of white spotting would be interesting. But to see all the possible combinations including the potential modifying genes would be amazing.

I'll buy that explaination on the gene. But it doesn't prove anything in regards to the parti colored yorkies or where the gene came from and how long it has been there.

[Breezeaway]

I have a question? I know alot of my pups are born with white on their chest, some more than others. Are all yorkies born with a little white on the chest and it disappears after they get older? How many of you raise pups that have this white patch and it disappears? If born with it then isnt that white in the coat? It may not stay but they were born with it.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I have a question? I know alot of my pups are born with white on their chest, some more than others. Are all yorkies born with a little white on the chest and it disappears after they get older? How many of you raise pups that have this white patch and it disappears? If born with it then isnt that white in the coat? It may not stay but they were born with it.

Many yorkies are born with white on their chests and toes. as long as it goes away it's fine. I have never heard an explaination as to what causes it or where it comes from, but I have wondered if you bred two of them if you might get a parti colored one.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Alliec1

I think what everyone is just trying to get at is how genetics work. I'll take a crack at it, as that is going to be my major and I am in AP biology.

First of all, I think calling partis 'mutts' is incredibly rude. Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese.

Now, for simplicity's sake(incredibly simplified, actually....), let's just say that a breed of dog has 2 genes that it carries that determine its color- black and blue. We'll call them BB for black, and bb for blue. Now, BB is the dominant trait..meaning that it will mask the bb trait if it is present at all in the genes. Possible combinations are BB= black dog, bb=blue dog, and Bb=black dog. If you breed a dog with BB genes to a dog with bb genes, you will always get black dogs, since the puppies recieve one half of their genes from either parent. If you breed a Bb and a BB, the same thing happens because B masks all b. Now, if you breed a Bb to a Bb, you have a 50% chance of the bb coming together to make a blue dog. And finally a bb to a bb will always give blue dogs because there is no B present to mask the b.

With the DNA testing, what the poster was trying to get was that DNA is unique. Sure, it currently will not tell you whether its owner is a Great Dane or a Yorkie, but the Great Dane will not have the same DNA as the Yorkie. It's like a fingerprint (pawprint! hehe) So, if you test all puppies, you can find out who what their parent's DNA is. By finding this DNA and comparing it to the DNA held by the supposed parent dogs, it is either a match or it is not. And, since DNA is usually traced back through a maternal lineage for both parentys, you can tell which dogs are related and which are not.

Yes, the DNA will tell you who the parents are. That's the purpose of the specific test used in partentage evaluation. But if I submitted a DNA sample from a Yorkie and a Maltese, as of now, no one would be able to identify what breeds the samples came from. It is my understanding that a test that will be able to specifically determine the BREED as well as parentage will soon be available.

And in many cases, with the Biewers that is not an issue. But to back up, I have been breeding for over 30 years. And there are many, many breeders who have equal or more experience and ALL

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

Yes, the DNA will tell you who the parents are. That's the purpose of the specific test used in partentage evaluation. But if I submitted a DNA sample from a Yorkie and a Maltese, as of now, no one would be able to identify what breeds the samples came from. It is my understanding that a test that will be able to specifically determine the BREED as well as parentage will soon be available.

And in many cases, with the Biewers that is not an issue. But to back up, I have been breeding for over 30 years. And there are many, many breeders who have equal or more experience and ALL

(sorry about that)
all will tell you that they have NEVER had a parti show up in their breeding. If this was a common occurance certainly one of us, throughout the years would have seen it. Hence the belief that these parti's or Biewer's started as a cross. But after so many generations of breeding back into the Yorkie breed these dogs would obviously DNA test true for Yorkies. That's not the case for those that are crossbreeding to cash in on this new craze. And like it or not, there are mutts out there being passed off as Biewers or as you call them Parti's.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I assure you that I am not personalizing this, I did my research, and where the original gene came from is still a mystery to everyone, but it has been there for a very long time. This is not something that my breeder created, and she has had her own line of champuion dogs for a very long time. I don't care if the eventually classify them as a breed of their own, or change the standards to include the parti color. That doesn't matter to me at all.

I am attempting to get people to understand how and when this gene appears and that it is not something that has happened in the recent past.

No one is ruining anything. These dogs will make their own place in the record books just as the original yorkies did way back when. I'm sure there were breeders back then that fought against them becoming a breed of their own too. But the might little terriers survived.

Jeanie,

You keep on talking about the parti's coming from championship lines. What lines are you referring to? Do you have pedigrees from some of the earlier parti's? Do they originate with the Nikko line?

It is my opinion that a Papillon most likely was used to give the piebald or spotted pattern. I have seen Maltese/Yorkie crosses and none were ever spotted.

[Lorraine]

I think another consideration is that a wrong colour for a breed is just that. Is it correct to cash in on it? I don't think so especially when the wrong colour has come up in such questionable ways. Raymond's mom is right. I have yet to hear of long time show breeders have a parti colour Yorkie in a litter. If it is that common I would certainly think some show breeders would have seen it somewhere over the last years.
Anything considered not to be reasonably within standard are sold spay/neuter for pet only not to be bred.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

Jeanie,

You keep on talking about the parti's coming from championship lines. What lines are you referring to? Do you have pedigrees from some of the earlier parti's? Do they originate with the Nikko line?

It is my opinion that a Papillon most likely was used to give the piebald or spotted pattern. I have seen Maltese/Yorkie crosses and none were ever spotted.

I agree, I have a pet grooming business and among my Yorkie/maltese clients, none are spotted or piebald.
There would have to be the piebald gene either Papillon or Shih Tzu.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Toby'sMama

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK
The Biewers and the partis are basically the same dog, just from two different lines. But the parti gene exists in both lines ad that is what has caused the parti coloring.


YES!!! Germany has just kept records and set forth standards for 20 years now. They all have only YORKIE heritage.

I just wanted to add to this post just a bit... Although the Biewers and Partis both carry the same piebald gene, they are not the same dog. The difference is in the standards. (as well as bloodlines originating in Germany) The Partis do not have any set standard, while the Biewer does.

As Kathy has pointed out already, the Biewer standards are the same as the Yorkshire Terrier standards, with the exception of the colors and the tail. Also, regarding their coats, faces, size, etc., I have seen the same differences in the Biewers as in the traditional Yorkies. Some have cottony coats, some have silk... some have smaller faces, some have longer and larger ones, some are 2 and 3 lbs, and some are 10, 11, and up. Some have ears that stand up, and some are floppy... There are good and bad examples of the breed coming over from Germany... and also irresponsible breeding here in the states are contributing to a whole variety of problems being bred into the lines. Just like the irresponsible breeding of our beloved traditional Yorkies. Unfortunately, greedy people do not care about the betterment of ANY breed.

In my opinion, when and if either the Parti and/or the Biewer gets a chance to compete in AKC Confirmation shows -- I don't see them being judged against the traditional Yorkies until they go into Best of Group. There's a long way to go before we get to this point -- and many "close-minded" people fighting against it who haven't done any "open-minded" research on these beautiful colored dogs!

No matter how they got here, Biewer's are certainly here. And, for the most part, I think that the yorkie show people are starting to accept that fact. But what we DO NOT want is for the two breeds to be shown together or for the Biewers or parti's to carry the Yorkshire name.

Many of us are very willing to help you in any way we can start to get records, etc. in order so you can apply to AKC to be shown in the Misc. class and go for full recognition. But my question to you would be, how are you going to handle the differences between parti's and Biewers? And from that group you need to weed out those that are cross breeding. Are you going to be able to unite all breeders of blue/white yorkies so together you can go forward as one?