Everyone Please Read: Going Forward, We Must Post With More Respect Toward Others

[chachi]

Originally Posted by matese

By telling someone you don't believe them, that is calling them a liar, you're just eliminating the "name calling word liar" . If some one says their father is a vet, and your reply is " I don't believe you" if that's not calling a person a liar, then what is it you're saying? You don't have to use the "word " liar, to call them one.

I will say this though and maybe you will understand just like you perceive what my intent is when I said I didnt believe it I can also percieve what the op of that thread was and not believe them. Its no different its perception from 2 sides. If you have been on here long enough you can perceive if someones not telling the truth the same as someone else could perceive if someone is being rude no difference both are looking at someones intent[/QUO

[Oddsock]

Not saying I've never been part of the problem, but would like to be part of the solution.
Sometimes it's not what is said, but how it's said. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I'm a better dog/animal owner now, than I was as a teen or young woman, even though my intent, love, respect for animals hasn't changed. We all start at a different place, with different levels of knowledge and experience.
A newbie coming here, especially with a pregnant dog, or dog in need....well we've all seen them never reply or return after some of the things they are told (some wouldn't return, no matter what, but some leave due to the way they are treated). We are all here because we love the dogs, to get the best for the dogs, By being respectful of the human, and at times of how we say things, we are more likely to effect change for the dog in question.
Yes we have different styles, some of us are more direct (I need to improve) , but sometimes walking on egg shells is needed, for the sake of the dog. Not saying somethings, not judging/condemning for the sake of the dog, we want to help.

It would be good, to have volunteers, I think. ie like some forums have to 'welcome' new members. To have a group, who offers help to new members with pregnant dogs. A group for new members with sick dogs. Not saying other members don't join in, but maybe it would help, with a situation we keep seeing repeated here.
People are more open to listening, if they feel you care.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Oddsock

Not saying I've never been part of the problem, but would like to be part of the solution.
Sometimes it's not what is said, but how it's said. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I'm a better dog/animal owner now, than I was as a teen or young woman, even though my intent, love, respect for animals hasn't changed. We all start at a different place, with different levels of knowledge and experience.
A newbie coming here, especially with a pregnant dog, or dog in need....well we've all seen them never reply or return after some of the things they are told (some wouldn't return, no matter what, but some leave due to the way they are treated). We are all here because we love the dogs, to get the best for the dogs, By being respectful of the human, and at times of how we say things, we are more likely to effect change for the dog in question.
Yes we have different styles, some of us are more direct (I need to improve) , but sometimes walking on egg shells is needed, for the sake of the dog. Not saying somethings, not judging/condemning for the sake of the dog, we want to help.

It would be good, to have volunteers, I think. ie like some forums have to 'welcome' new members. To have a group, who offers help to new members with pregnant dogs. A group for new members with sick dogs. Not saying other members don't join in, but maybe it would help, with a situation we keep seeing repeated here.
People are more open to listening, if they feel you care.

And I disagree that walking on eggshells is ever appropriate. I think that again people are dictating posting styles. I believe in being direct and cutting to the chase. I don't have time to walk on eggshells. My way of "taking care of the human" is to tell them what I think they need to know for the sake of the dog. I don't judge them on their subsequebt action/inaction - that's for them to live with.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lilah Charm

I believe this thread was posted because the manner in which some people within the yt community have been responding within threads has been perceived by a large enough member base as rude and/or innapropriate that a moderator felt it necessary to step in and create this thread. If the tone and atmosphere within these dischorded threads weren't becoming consistently out of hand as perceived by a large enough portion of this community to cause a moderator response then I don't think this thread would exist. That said I don't see the value in tit for tatting the morals and manners as independently perceived by each member. The community spoke that the behavior was innapropriate, the moderator agreed there was a concern and posted a request to communicate in a more appropriate manner and to me, that seems that should be that.

^^^ That pretty much sums it up. Yep.

I do wish "that could be that" and that was the end of it. But, we can see it didn't turn out that way. And on one hand maybe that's okay bc maybe people *have* to get this stuff OUT in order to move forward in a better way. I can only hope that the conflict in these recent pages could result in something positive such as that...paws crossed.

So, a lot of time was spent arguing intent and it seems there was a lot of sparring on who was right or the most right. And sometimes it's a matter of just passionately wanting to be understood correctly or as *exactly* how you meant it. I think we can all understand that last one. As for being right, I often ask myself "what's so great about being right anyway?" - it can be a very hollow little victory depending upon how you get there.

As far as intent, which started this rather perfect example of how conflict evolves at YT, here is what we know:

** Sometimes we can judge intent and be spot on
** And sometimes we're as wrong as can be

And that's about the extent of what we know of intent, unfortunately. That said - it's human nature, is it not, for us to infer some flavor of intent as we're reading someone's writing bc our brains are formulating meaning for us...so it's a little unavoidable to a certain degree. But, maybe we can all just try harder to not make gigantic leaps about intent.

Some people are asking about or making comments about suspensions, warnings, bannings etcetera. The reason these haven't happened yet is bc we're hoping this thread will serve some sort of purpose and have an effect. If it doesn't - and soon - and we see the same 'ol same 'ol on the boards at large, then we will be taking further action at that time. Just because you haven't been contacted via PM regarding your behavior and/or haven't been suspended, this doesn't mean you're not part of the problem.

[lynzy420]

I would just like to add....go back and look at the threads, really go back, some folks are concentrating only on the few negative...long...long....long....meaningless threads...it doesn't stand to reason that THEY ALL GO AWAY... many of them are still here, everyday there are more and more new threads. People come and go ALL THE TIME...for lots of reasons. But Those threads as Cathy described are the ones where they tend to go away....and everyone who posts on THOSE threads is then "guilty" from the one "sounding" harsh to the one screaming "harsh"...THOSE ARE THE THREADS....and really those threads involve interfamilial arguing...All in all those threads are far and few between, and often times those OP's are just pot stirrers etc., that's a fact.


There is a core group of YTers who are invested in YT for the long haul, and we consist of many many many different, views-opinions-training-experience-education etc....then there are those who come and go whether it be to just start their business, to get the info they need, or because they just want to stir us up.....


To say many don't stay is not a true statement, there are many many many new members posting right now.........right along with the dedicated core group. So this whole thing about chasing people away, well some of them should be, but MOST of them are not.

[horsnaround]

So it is better to tell them what a mistake they have made and all the horrible things that may happen to the dog. After the dog is already bred and to far to abort pups Rather then say okay it's done these are my concerns. And this is what you may want to do next The pregnant dog and sick pup threads I feel get very out of control fast. Every sick pup should in IMO be seen by a vet. But not everyone agrees are takes them right away. So if we can offer some help till they can get them to a vet. We are very blessed to have some very knowledeable help on this site. I do love yt But I think if we say what we want and then move on instead of always wanting the last word and feeling like we have to defend ourselves constantly Hope everyone has a great day

[107barney]

I don't think it's a matter of being right or needing a "hollow little victory" for some. I think it is about some people have very strong views and they are not likely to change those views. It is this unwavering from one's position that seems to get people really upset -- so if you don't agree with the opposite view, you're a bully in their eyes. I also think some members share very deep "core values" as Lisaly suggested....but, why are their values any less than the values of those who have different values. It cuts both ways....for everyone here, including me. I am fully cognizant that my posting style/personality may not mix with let's say someone like Lisaly who I see as having a totally different type of approach. I see that as a GOOD thing on the boards. I'm just sorry not everyone can view it this way. Perhaps the best way to resolve it IS for the moderator/admins to PM the offensive posters and discuss what the issue is and how that poster can improve.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I don't think it's a matter of being right or needing a "hollow little victory" for some. I think it is about some people have very strong views and they are not likely to change those views. It is this unwavering from one's position that seems to get people really upset -- so if you don't agree with the opposite view, you're a bully in their eyes. I also think some members share very deep "core values" as Lisaly suggested....but, why are their values any less than the values of those who have different values. It cuts both ways....for everyone here, including me. I am fully cognizant that my posting style/personality may not mix with let's say someone like Lisaly who I see as having a totally different type of approach. I see that as a GOOD thing on the boards. I'm just sorry not everyone can view it this way. Perhaps the best way to resolve it IS for the moderator/admins to PM the offensive posters and discuss what the issue is and how that poster can improve.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Oddsock

Not saying I've never been part of the problem, but would like to be part of the solution.
Sometimes it's not what is said, but how it's said. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I'm a better dog/animal owner now, than I was as a teen or young woman, even though my intent, love, respect for animals hasn't changed. We all start at a different place, with different levels of knowledge and experience.
A newbie coming here, especially with a pregnant dog, or dog in need....well we've all seen them never reply or return after some of the things they are told (some wouldn't return, no matter what, but some leave due to the way they are treated). We are all here because we love the dogs, to get the best for the dogs, By being respectful of the human, and at times of how we say things, we are more likely to effect change for the dog in question.
Yes we have different styles, some of us are more direct (I need to improve) , but sometimes walking on egg shells is needed, for the sake of the dog. Not saying somethings, not judging/condemning for the sake of the dog, we want to help.

It would be good, to have volunteers, I think. ie like some forums have to 'welcome' new members. To have a group, who offers help to new members with pregnant dogs. A group for new members with sick dogs. Not saying other members don't join in, but maybe it would help, with a situation we keep seeing repeated here.
People are more open to listening, if they feel you care.

I think I've missed any and all drama around here lately. But, I just popped into this thread and only read the first and last page (so I'm probably missing a lot) but I definitely agree with this post.

I still remember when I first joined and how I felt. When I posted about my new puppy I was so excited about, one of the first replies was something alone the lines of "oh, normally puppies don't come home until 12 weeks" and I can remember thinking "Well GEEZ way to spoil my happiness!" and I was kind of upset about it, but once a bunch of other people came on wishing me well and excited for my puppy, I decided to stay. One of my second posts was about rib bones and how excited I was that Jackson liked them! A few worrisome replies honestly made me roll my eyes... like oh these overprotective people just don't know a dog is a dog.

NOW, of *course* I know these things were well intentioned and that I was the idiot, LOL, and I myself now try to give solid advice to newbies or people with questions. But I am just saying I still remember that feeling of only being here for a week or two and feeling very easily threatened in MY mind (even if it was stupid... and thankfully, I quickly learned). But I think of how much I *wouldn't* have learned or wouldn't know now if I decided to just not be a part of YT anymore because of a post that hurt my feelings. And honestly? Like I said, the reasons were extremely stupid, I had no reasons for feeling threatened really, but I did.

So no, I don't think we need to walk on egg shells to be a part of a forum. And we should be able to be honest, truthful and give advice. But I think sometimes we as animal lovers are so quick to judge because we love these animals so much that sometimes we forget about the humans behind the screen.

And like the post says above ^ I've loved animals since, well, since the day I was born (or at least can remember) and looking back, I cringe at some of the things we allowed to happen or let go with our previous pets. But we weren't abusive, the dogs lived happy lives for the most part, and we truly deeply loved them. A person who comes on here with a pregnant female who got impregnated by her neighbors poodle (random example, don't know if really happened) and doesn't believe in spaying/neutering and has 5 unaltered pets - are they "bad" pet owners or do they just not know any better? Immediately telling them 'GO GET THEM FIXED!' isn't going to solve the problem. It will probably just run them off and they'll continue living the way they are. I'm not saying act happy for them or fake your personality or lie or anything like that. Just maybe don't immediately jump to what we know as the obvious solution, but they may not.

I'm kind of rambling all over the place and honestly don't even know where this thread stems from sooo.... -steps out quietly-

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I don't think it's a matter of being right or needing a "hollow little victory" for some. I think it is about some people have very strong views and they are not likely to change those views. It is this unwavering from one's position that seems to get people really upset -- so if you don't agree with the opposite view, you're a bully in their eyes. I also think some members share very deep "core values" as Lisaly suggested....but, why are their values any less than the values of those who have different values. It cuts both ways....for everyone here, including me. I am fully cognizant that my posting style/personality may not mix with let's say someone like Lisaly who I see as having a totally different type of approach. I see that as a GOOD thing on the boards. I'm just sorry not everyone can view it this way. Perhaps the best way to resolve it IS for the moderator/admins to PM the offensive posters and discuss what the issue is and how that poster can improve.

Totally agree. I am baffled by all of this. If so many people are running a campaign and the others are SO wrong, why not just be direct instead of this? I don't find this thread productive in any way. I think it merely is fueling some peoples' fire so to speak. To say that just because it has not been said does not help matters at all. Just being DIRECT is all I think needs to happen here. I would much rather it be done privately....just like I think all of the complainers should do it privately and stop policing threads. We all can be a part of something positive...but not on a thread like this. It solves nothing. Very sad that we need a principal so to speak, but I think that is the bottom line.

The only thing I have gotten out of this is that perhaps I should start complaining more when people attack me and others...because it DOES happen. I have pretty thick skin and don't run to momma but I think I may be handling this wrong. As has been said it takes two to tango.

[SophieKatesMom]

I have tried very hard to avoid posting on this thread but to read and absorb the meaing of Ann's post BUT.... I have to agree with Cathy. Let Admin and the Mods do their job and be the judge of who is being harsh/rude.

I learned a long time ago to put on my "big girl panties" when it comes to the internet and smile from the wrist down (oh but trust me I am saying mean things to myself).

Remember we all have one thing in common, we love our dogs and probably everyone elses and we want what is best for them (in our opinion).

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by SophieKatesMom

I have tried very hard to avoid posting on this thread but to read and absorb the meaing of Ann's post BUT.... I have to agree with Cathy. Let Admin and the Mods do their job and be the judge of who is being harsh/rude.

I learned a long time ago to put on my "big girl panties" when it comes to the internet and smile from the wrist down (oh but trust me I am saying mean things to myself).

Remember we all have one thing in common, we love our dogs and probably everyone elses and we want what is best for them (in our opinion).

[shelbysmom]

I believe it is possible to express oneself in a civil way without feeling like you are walking on eggshells. I have learned a lot through my experiences but that does not mean I know everything. Every dog is different and while there are general answers to some things most people who post here don't expect expert advice, they just want to hear what others have experienced.

Even if we had a professional Vet here, we could get another Vet that felt completely different about the way to handle things. Reputable breeders don't always agree on everything either.

While I am not part of the core group I can add to the discussion. I know some very valuable people have left because the drama got too intense. They don't make a scene, they just disappear and that is a shame.

It's not that hard to be kind even when you disagree.

I save my big girl panties for the hard things in life that I can't control.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I don't think it's a matter of being right or needing a "hollow little victory" for some. I think it is about some people have very strong views and they are not likely to change those views. It is this unwavering from one's position that seems to get people really upset -- so if you don't agree with the opposite view, you're a bully in their eyes. I also think some members share very deep "core values" as Lisaly suggested....but, why are their values any less than the values of those who have different values. It cuts both ways....for everyone here, including me. I am fully cognizant that my posting style/personality may not mix with let's say someone like Lisaly who I see as having a totally different type of approach. I see that as a GOOD thing on the boards. I'm just sorry not everyone can view it this way. Perhaps the best way to resolve it IS for the moderator/admins to PM the offensive posters and discuss what the issue is and how that poster can improve.

I hear you in terms of having strong views and sticking to them, however, what we've been seeing here are views being shoved very rudely at times down people's throats -- and that's not helping anyone at all. It's one thing to have strong views and be direct -- there is NOTHING wrong with that. It's another thing to have strong views and be rude and badgering at the same time. That's what needs to stop on that front. I think that's what the posters with a less direct posting style are looking for...at least that's what we've heard and seen.

Now, on the flip side of things...what I'm hearing form the more direct posters is "please don't preach to me about my posting style". What the more direct posters are asking is that if one of their posts is seen as inappropriate, to please *just* report it, rather than telling another person how to post or that their post is rude. We're hearing that loud and clear. I think it's a fair request. That said, it's well within the rules to state an opinion such as "I think this thread is bordering on badgering this member and I'd like to see that tone change" -- a member is allowed to state that sort of opinion, whether we like it or not. But the request has been heard, very clearly, that people who find things offensive to please use the report icon.

I want to comment on another aspect of this subject that we've heard much about behind the scenes and that is when members are VERY clearly juuuuust riding the cusp of our rules here -- where they're just on the edge...not quite breaking rules, but very clearly getting as close as they intentionally can. We know when you're doing it, and you know when you're doing it. Going forward, if a member is clearly riding that edge -- the post will just be deleted, period, gone....and any/all educational info you shared will have to be rewritten. And if that sort of cusp-riding behavior accumulates - suspensions or bans will follow.

As for "why this thread" instead of private PMs - it's because this is a community problem, and the community deserves to know it's being addressed. And the members of the community deserve to have a voice about what's been happening and what they've been seeing...no matter where you land on the issues. When there is an outcry for action, the community needs to know we've heard it and are addressing it. It's a public matter, therefore, we want to be transparent.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by shelbysmom

It's not that hard to be kind even when you disagree.

EXACTLY. It's truly NOT difficult.

And if it is extremely difficult for someone, then perhaps that person does not belong on a board such as YT. There are other boards where anything goes, but that is never going to be this board.