Cesar debate thread

[chachi]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I trust my own judgement more than the judgement of strangers. I have found that way too many "experts" have an agenda - a product to push, a cause to support, etc.

With my dogs I trust my own instincts - I KNOW that I can learn from every single dog owner - what would work for me or what wouldn't work for me. I watch and listen to everyone I can and glean what I believe will work for my dogs and discard the rest. I AM the best trainer for MY dogs and I work hard at finding the methods and techniques that work for me.

I agree with you also! Good post

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

After reading Nancy's post -- I don't want to do the quote thingie cause it makes the thread so long......

But I have to agree that I have learned more about dealing with people from two very unusual sources - a well known horse trainer - John Lyons, and dog trainer Ceasar Milan. .

Ok not sure who john lyonns is but horse training I think Monty or chris or linda tellington jones or Karen Pryor.
Dog training I think Karen Overall. pryor. Pam dennsion., terry ryn, pat miller, Tammy Brooks, Pat miler, paul owen, Linda Tellington Jones.
As for them having an adjenda...yeah it is their buisness but many are in it to help the animls they love.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Are we in need of finishing the shoe coller discussion as I can go back and have a look here breifly as I have tons to do and still more cuddles to be had.

JL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Ok not sure who john lyonns is but horse training I think Monty or chris or linda tellington jones or Karen Pryor.
Dog training I think Karen Overall. pryor. Pam dennsion., terry ryn, pat miller, Tammy Brooks, Pat miler, paul owen, Linda Tellington Jones.
As for them having an adjenda...yeah it is their buisness but many are in it to help the animls they love.

JL

Fortunately for me I DO understand and I DO get it! I have learned from John Lyons (who I worked with in person) Monty, and Linda Tellington Jones (have the Tellington Touch book) and Karen Pryor (shoot I have an entire notebook devoted to her clicker training for horses). Karen is spectatular -- I used her clicker training methods with my tiny miniature horses AND with my 1200 lb quarter horse stallion. Works wonders.

The thing is, I am NOT narrow minded or afraid of change or afraid to listen to those I disagree with. I can and do learn from everyone I come into contact with. I have learned from John, and Monty, and Linda, and so much from Karen. I have learned from our own Cyndi(Izzy Princess), and a few really neat tricks from Mike(Alaskayorkie). I also learned from watching every single member that I was lucky enough to meet at the YorkieTalk Meetup in Virginia.

Unfortunately people who profess to be experts and support one method of training over all others are all too often unwilling to really take the time to learn what other trainers are doing or why they are trying to accomplish. All too often someone finds a specific isolated training technique that they disagree wtih and uses it to discredit everything the trainer does. Just because I might disagree with one thing a trainer does doesn't mean that ALL things he/she does is wrong. If the truth be known, I am sure that there is not one trainer alive that hasn't made a mistake, used bad judgement or been mis-judged by someone who didn't have enough information to make an educated evaluation.

If Ceasar used a shock collar on EVERY single dog he trained or a static mat one EVERY single dog he worked with, then perhaps my opinions would be different. We only know what the producers of those TV shows choose to let us see so we don't really understand the entire story. In order to really understand why Ceasar chooses the methods with the specific dogs we would have to become a fly on the wall of the homes of the dog owners and be privy to the private conversations with Ceasar and the dog owners.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Here are my very quick thoughts on this.
First cause we as humans are afraid of change.
Second we as humans are afraid we may have made a mistake and may have to admit it. So we tend to burry ones head in the sand and not deal. Easier to beat up the messager and hope they go away. Then change.
Third we as humans tend to not trust science as it tends to change ...cause it does as we learn more.
Fourth it easier to go with what we are raised with then to go against what we have been taught facts not withstanding.
Fifth he got more flash and cute than many of the sicence based guys out there. And hay who does not like watching a cute butt with a cute accent on tv. then one that is not so cute and knows more.. sex sells even in a dog training show.
Sixth it sells rough tough in your face is just more sale worth in some eyes.
Seventh it easier to believe what we think we know as facts as it always been understood to be so ,,,you know the nice little wives tails than reallity.
eight.. we as human need pack order in our lives to make the world make sence so there for we slap it on everything else even if they do not work that way.
nine. If we really had to learn this stuff to save a life, then some of us would but most just want the fast fix and a wham bam thank man over. not to even see the pain it causes. Cause we hav control and control is all important that power rush thing.
Ten did I say it sells.. he is cute. He got a hard luck bring himslef by the boot strap story that all to many fall all over and respect. Miss Oprah got on his band wagon and that all she wrote..

JL

Yes, television is... well, television. And certain things will sell better than others. But the same can be said for Victoria if you want to get into TV and selling. Bitchiness and drama also sells and that's where Victoria comes in. It's the same concept and of course marketing is going to be used in both shows, it's just what happens in television. Oh, and if you want to talk about Oprah (I've never heard her ever mention Cesar but maybe I'm living under a rock?) she did the same thing with Obama. She promoted him and because she supported him, I do believe that many people voted for him that otherwise would have not voted or cared about politics. So, if you want to bring up her name, you can also refer to the President. Some people like her are very powerful over others.

You mentioned people may be afraid of change. That may be the case, however, what is sooo wrong with NOT changing? I'm all for change in certain ways, but sometimes... things should just stay the same. Why change somethin' that ain't broke? I think the world was a better place one hundred years ago than we are today. So much for change. Science couldn't even figure out what the hell is wrong with our society nowdays. I tend to believe that technology will be the end of us. Don't get me wrong, I love my computer and my cell phone and I love my TV shows, but I do think that if a certain technology wound up in the wrong hands, it's not going to be good, without getting too political here. But bottom line... change has seemed to harm us more than do good, IMO. Don't get me wrong though -- I think it's wonderful that women like myself can go to college, have a career and have rights, and I think it's awesome that slavery has ended and black people have more rights than ever before, but what was so wrong with the world before all of this change? People sure seemed a hell of a lot happier, even when my mother was growing up, she speaks of such a different, simpler, happier time than most children live today.

You also mention eight.. we as human need pack order in our lives to make the world make sence so there for we slap it on everything else even if they do not work that way. But we DO live as packs? Most humans, anyways. In a typical American family, let's say there's a father, mother, son and daughter. Who's generally at the top, a.k.a. alpha? The father, typically speaking. If there is no father in the picture, the alpha would be the mother. The children are below the parents and should be exercised, disiplined and given affection, just like a dog, really. And no matter how old that "child" gets, even when he turns 60, he should still respect his parents and elders, even though the child is now himself an adult.

[QuickSilver]

Seriously? 100 years ago, women didn't vote!


I think part of the reason that there's so much argument about training techniques is because we are still learning so much about this area. I'm sure our understanding will continue to grow, and who knows, maybe in 20 years, clicker training will sound ridiculous.

I don't think anyone can disagree with Cesar 100%, or even 50%, because how can you disagree that dogs need exercise? However, the fact that he uses way too much force in maybe 10% of his cases -- to me, this is like a teacher that only physically abuses her students 10% of the time. If he were just some guy with a successful training business, that would be one thing, but NG is legitimizing his techniques, some of which are just wrong.

Britster, here is what I think about the "weak energy" -- I expect my groomer to be good with dogs, but not a seasoned trainer, so maybe he needs the extra help of keeping the me out of the room. I'm fine with that. But someone who is being billed as a Dog Whisperer should be able to do ANYTHING with the owner sitting there. Cesar was complaining about an owner coming in when he was working with dog on dog aggression. VS has done countless sessions with dog aggression, and the owner is ALWAYS there.

I do agree with you on the dominance word , Cesar seems to throw it around a lot, it often simply seems to mean "obnoxious behavior."

By the way, I don't think Cesar lovers are afraid of change or can't admit they are wrong, or whatever. But I do wish you would change your minds.

I feel like everyone should watch the same episode of TDW,and then we can all discuss it.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Here are my very quick thoughts on this.
First cause we as humans are afraid of change.
Second we as humans are afraid we may have made a mistake and may have to admit it. So we tend to burry ones head in the sand and not deal. Easier to beat up the messager and hope they go away. Then change.
Third we as humans tend to not trust science as it tends to change ...cause it does as we learn more.
Fourth it easier to go with what we are raised with then to go against what we have been taught facts not withstanding.
Fifth he got more flash and cute than many of the sicence based guys out there. And hay who does not like watching a cute butt with a cute accent on tv. then one that is not so cute and knows more.. sex sells even in a dog training show.
Sixth it sells rough tough in your face is just more sale worth in some eyes.
Seventh it easier to believe what we think we know as facts as it always been understood to be so ,,,you know the nice little wives tails than reallity.
eight.. we as human need pack order in our lives to make the world make sence so there for we slap it on everything else even if they do not work that way.
nine. If we really had to learn this stuff to save a life, then some of us would but most just want the fast fix and a wham bam thank man over. not to even see the pain it causes. Cause we hav control and control is all important that power rush thing.
Ten did I say it sells.. he is cute. He got a hard luck bring himslef by the boot strap story that all to many fall all over and respect. Miss Oprah got on his band wagon and that all she wrote..

JL

Really, so you think it all boils down to his good looks..Please!!!!! give the man credit. His good looks are a plus but he is smart and his methods do work.

I don't agree with anything you say about humans. I embrace change, I find science intriguing and I walk outside of the pack, (in casy you haven 't noticed).

I have applied what I have learned from Cesar to humans, and for the most part it works, but I do believe that he knows dogs better than anyone else.

Some of his rehab methods might be questionable, but for the most part, he does nothing to train a dog, he trains the people.

he only uses the stricter stronger methods on problem dogs. I look at it more like tough love. It might seem harsh now, but it is for their own good in the long run.

if he can work a dog through it's issue so it can remain in it's home, isn 't that the best solution.

[QuickSilver]

Okay, so I watched the bulldog episode on Hulu. Here are my thoughts:

* It was good to see that Cesar recognized that she was getting more keyed up by the prong collar, and he switched her to a gentle leader.

* He gave some good explanation of her body language in the beginning.

* The vibration collar seemed harmless.

* This really bugged me: Bella was billed as this hyper-aggressive dog on the verge of being PTS, but she really was not all that aggressive! She had food guarding issues, which tons of dogs do, and she was dog-aggressive, again, which tons of dogs are. The owner admitted that he had never worked with a trainer. She had not been given a stable home, so of course she had some issues. The real problem here was completely clueless people.

* Cesar provoked her unnecessarily by hitting her, kicking her, staring at her, etc. It's a self-feeding cycle: Cesar claims the dog is aggressive,and behaves aggressively towards the dog. The dog either submits, and it's a win for Cesar. OR, the dog gets aggressive, and it's used as proof that oooooh, this is a scary, crazy dog. The real hero in this episode was Bella, who endured the shenanigans of her owner, and then of Cesar with typical canine flexibility and grace.

* The techniques Cesar used to reduce food guarding are fine (though again, no hitting, please!), but I can imagine Victoria Stilwell working with Bella and getting great results with far less drama. Which is perhaps why she is less popular.

* Overall, it was a mishmash of good and bad training, and it's hard to sort out. I think Cesar is an okay trainer, but I just don't get why he is a household name when there are much better, more educated trainers out there using more modern, more gentle, and more effective techniques. That really bugs me.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Seriously? 100 years ago, women didn't vote!


I think part of the reason that there's so much argument about training techniques is because we are still learning so much about this area. I'm sure our understanding will continue to grow, and who knows, maybe in 20 years, clicker training will sound ridiculous.

I don't think anyone can disagree with Cesar 100%, or even 50%, because how can you disagree that dogs need exercise? However, the fact that he uses way too much force in maybe 10% of his cases -- to me, this is like a teacher that only physically abuses her students 10% of the time. If he were just some guy with a successful training business, that would be one thing, but NG is legitimizing his techniques, some of which are just wrong.

Britster, here is what I think about the "weak energy" -- I expect my groomer to be good with dogs, but not a seasoned trainer, so maybe he needs the extra help of keeping the me out of the room. I'm fine with that. But someone who is being billed as a Dog Whisperer should be able to do ANYTHING with the owner sitting there. Cesar was complaining about an owner coming in when he was working with dog on dog aggression. VS has done countless sessions with dog aggression, and the owner is ALWAYS there.

I do agree with you on the dominance word , Cesar seems to throw it around a lot, it often simply seems to mean "obnoxious behavior."

By the way, I don't think Cesar lovers are afraid of change or can't admit they are wrong, or whatever. But I do wish you would change your minds.

I feel like everyone should watch the same episode of TDW,and then we can all discuss it.

As I stated, I'm happy CERTAIN things have changed, such as the right to vote for women, etc. I stated all that in my first post. I'm not a person against change. But it is my humble belief that the human was a better species in past times and change has not always done good. I'm old school on a lot of my beliefs, really. I sometimes wish I could back and live in a different time period when the world was so much simpler. We have FAR too many material things in our lives now and it takes up such a large portion of our lives, it's kind of sad. Yes, most women were stay-at-home mothers and the fathers went out and made the money for the family, but exactly was sooo terrible about that? Kids were better, more well behaved and respectful, families sat down and ate dinner together, it's just a time I really appreciate and respect and wish I had maybe grown up in such a time.

Yes, I think people are always learning and there's no problem with that. Also, I just really don't think his techniques are wrong per say and they just work for certain dogs. I don't ever watch his show and go "OMG! That was abusive!" I've just never caught that vibe ever from his show. Society has changed and morphed everything into something it's not. If you spank a kid, OMG, the world is ending and Social Services must take away the child. I'm not for ABUSE in ANY way, shape or form. But spanking a kid on his hiney used to be perfectly acceptable, and it usually taught the kid to never do it again. My mom, stepmom, dad, grandmother, etc were all spanked as children and they have NO psychological damage from being spanked... they just never did it again. All my mom had to do to stop was see her dad holding a belt (even tho he never actually hit her with it) to know she was in trouble. I just think people make too big of a deal out of nothing these days.

Even teachers now cannot say anything without getting in trouble. That's why schools are so terrible now because kids just don't respect their teachers or elders. They just don't care! When I was in HS there was this black kid who kept acting out and the teacher scolded him, well of course he comes back with "It's cuz I'm black, isn't it?!" and reported the teacher to the office. SHE got in trouble. It's just bullcrap. The teacher should be able to be a LEADER but she's not "allowed" to be.

I also wanted to state that I've never actually alpha rolled Jackson, or jerked on his collar/harness/leash, or any of those things. He doesn't need it. If he's barking, I will usually say "Quiet" and "poke" his side softly like Cesar does with his hand but it does not hurt him at all, it just snaps him out of it. I've also used pennies in a can and squirt bottles for barking, it has no damanged Jackson in any way and he's not a barker really. I use Cesar's energy tips for sure. If I come into a room stressed or excited, Jackson becomes tense or really excitable as well. If I'm calm, he's calm. I also practice exercise, disipline, affection. I give him affection when he's either laying down, on my lap, sleeping, etc. But whatever I'm doing is obviously working. He's a very happy dog, he loves every dog he meets, he walks right beside me on a leash, he knows 9-10 different commands/tricks, he's obedient (I'd give him a 8/10 just because he's so bad with begging still but that's my fault)

Quicksilver, this isn't all directed at you, either! Just me speaking my mind Have you watched the episode "Run Home Roscoe?" It was on yesterday, I believe, a fearful Akita. I think Cesar handled it beautifully and I'd love to hear your opinion on it if you ever catch it.

I agree, we should all watch ONE episode and discuss!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

* Cesar provoked her unnecessarily by hitting her, kicking her, staring at her, etc. It's a self-feeding cycle: Cesar claims the dog is aggressive,and behaves aggressively towards the dog. The dog either submits, and it's a win for Cesar. OR, the dog gets aggressive, and it's used as proof that oooooh, this is a scary, crazy dog. The real hero in this episode was Bella, who endured the shenanigans of her owner, and then of Cesar with typical canine flexibility and grace.

* The techniques Cesar used to reduce food guarding are fine (though again, no hitting, please!), but I can imagine Victoria Stilwell working with Bella and getting great results with far less drama. Which is perhaps why she is less popular.

I don't like the words you chose for these statements... hitting and kicking. When did he ever kick or hit the dog? That's very misleading. I just re-watched the part you were talking about where he was staring her down and did not see any hitting or kicking. I didn't see hitting or kicking anywhere else in the episode, either. He gives a nudge with his foot on dogs sides, much like you would do to get a horse going. Bella is a strong dog, that did not hurt her a bit. She didn't even flinch. The Boxers I dogsit, to give them love and pet them, I will "hit" their butt really hard, if you know what I mean. I'm not hitting but with larger dogs, they don't see it as hitting. I don't know how to explain. But when the Boxer comes up to me, butt in my face and all, LOL, I give a few hard "hits" as petting. Grr, it's hard to explain. But if you've ever owned or been around large dogs, hopefully you would know what I mean.

He wasn't provoking her to become more aggressive, he simply walked up to her while she was chained on the leash. He even stated "That to me is a dog clearly on edge so I'm not going to push her buttons." She was aggressive, period. If any ole' person were to walk up to her, she was most likely to bite or attack, though no fault of her own. I don't see anything wrong with staring a dog down.

[QuickSilver]

I'm sorry you don't like my choice of words, but that's what I saw. He hit, kicked, and stared the dog down. Could he have been rougher? Sure, but he could have been gentler too.

Staring at a dog will provoke an aggressive response in many dogs. It's aggressive behavior, of course it can provoke aggression in return. It's aggressive in humans as well. A truly aggressive dog would have been on the end of her leash, snarling, teeth bared. She was just tense. Cesar could probably have walked backwards towards her and he would have been fine. None of the people who knew her said she was particularly aggressive towards people.

Again, when Cesar kicked her - I will admit, he took his shoe off first - an aggressive dog would have gone for his throat. Bella did what most dogs do, which is she want along to get along.

I've watched Cesar work with a lot of dogs at this point, and I would say I've only seen him work with one or two truly aggressive dogs.


I will watch the episode with the Akita.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, so I watched the bulldog episode on Hulu. Here are my thoughts:

* It was good to see that Cesar recognized that she was getting more keyed up by the prong collar, and he switched her to a gentle leader.

* He gave some good explanation of her body language in the beginning.

* The vibration collar seemed harmless.

* This really bugged me: Bella was billed as this hyper-aggressive dog on the verge of being PTS, but she really was not all that aggressive! She had food guarding issues, which tons of dogs do, and she was dog-aggressive, again, which tons of dogs are. The owner admitted that he had never worked with a trainer. She had not been given a stable home, so of course she had some issues. The real problem here was completely clueless people.

* Cesar provoked her unnecessarily by hitting her, kicking her, staring at her, etc. It's a self-feeding cycle: Cesar claims the dog is aggressive,and behaves aggressively towards the dog. The dog either submits, and it's a win for Cesar. OR, the dog gets aggressive, and it's used as proof that oooooh, this is a scary, crazy dog. The real hero in this episode was Bella, who endured the shenanigans of her owner, and then of Cesar with typical canine flexibility and grace.

* The techniques Cesar used to reduce food guarding are fine (though again, no hitting, please!), but I can imagine Victoria Stilwell working with Bella and getting great results with far less drama. Which is perhaps why she is less popular.

* Overall, it was a mishmash of good and bad training, and it's hard to sort out. I think Cesar is an okay trainer, but I just don't get why he is a household name when there are much better, more educated trainers out there using more modern, more gentle, and more effective techniques. That really bugs me.

I have never seen Cesar kick a dog. I've seen him bump them with his foot, is that what you call kicking? I use my foot to block my dogs all the time. They do not fear my foot, nor do they cowar when I lift my foot but they do back away, if they don't the get pushed back with my foot.

He is a household word because before Cesar, there was no one. I watchn Victoria as well, but believe that she uses way too much bribing and rewarding with treats.

Cesar uses one correction for all behavior. Chhhht and a poke. It just means stop what you are doing. Victoria has a different remedy for each misbehavior. Dogs do not need language and bribes and rewards, they just need to know if they did good or bad.

Neither method is good or bad, just preference.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I have never seen Cesar kick a dog. I've seen him bump them with his foot, is that what you call kicking? I use my foot to block my dogs all the time. They do not fear my foot, nor do they cowar when I lift my foot but they do back away, if they don't the get pushed back with my foot.

He is a household word because before Cesar, there was no one. I watchn Victoria as well, but believe that she uses way too much bribing and rewarding with treats.

Cesar uses one correction for all behavior. Chhhht and a poke. It just means stop what you are doing. Victoria has a different remedy for each misbehavior. Dogs do not need language and bribes and rewards, they just need to know if they did good or bad.

Neither method is good or bad, just preference.

Agree.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Britster

I don't like the words you chose for these statements... hitting and kicking. When did he ever kick or hit the dog? That's very misleading. I just re-watched the part you were talking about where he was staring her down and did not see any hitting or kicking. I didn't see hitting or kicking anywhere else in the episode, either. He gives a nudge with his foot on dogs sides, much like you would do to get a horse going. Bella is a strong dog, that did not hurt her a bit. She didn't even flinch. The Boxers I dogsit, to give them love and pet them, I will "hit" their butt really hard, if you know what I mean. I'm not hitting but with larger dogs, they don't see it as hitting. I don't know how to explain. But when the Boxer comes up to me, butt in my face and all, LOL, I give a few hard "hits" as petting. Grr, it's hard to explain. But if you've ever owned or been around large dogs, hopefully you would know what I mean.

He wasn't provoking her to become more aggressive, he simply walked up to her while she was chained on the leash. He even stated "That to me is a dog clearly on edge so I'm not going to push her buttons." She was aggressive, period. If any ole' person were to walk up to her, she was most likely to bite or attack, though no fault of her own. I don't see anything wrong with staring a dog down.

Boxers treat each other that way, it is their method of communication. Sort of like boys walking up and punching each other in the arm. So bumping them or pushing them is just speaking to them in their own language.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Boxers treat each other that way, it is their method of communication. Sort of like boys walking up and punching each other in the arm. So bumping them or pushing them is just speaking to them in their own language.

Right, exactly, I couldn't put into words what I meant, lol.