Cesar debate thread

[Britster]

[QUOTE=livingdustmops;2748801]Besides tons of great books out there I also subscribe to Whole Dog Journel and Tufts University Vet School Newsletter "Your Dog". Great Stuff and both magazines always have a training section...June issues has an article on Keep them entertained and engaged as they age...it actually shows you how to teach them to play an electronic keyboard..what a hoot.[/QUOTE]

That is soo funny you say that (what a hoot) because I have one friend who says that ALL the TIME and I always laugh because I hardly ever hear anyone say that phrase, lol.

[QuickSilver]

I can't seem to shut up on this thread!

WRT the bulldog episode... I did not think the bulldog seemed exceptionally stressed, and I didn't think Cesar was abusing her. I do think he was unnecessarily rough, as he often is, and he is often provoking the aggression he says he sees in the dog. Use the right tool for the job.

Compare this with Victoria's latest episode -- there was a chihuahua named "Killer" who was extremely people aggressive, and had bitten not only the owner, but the owner's two-year-old daughter. Bella the bulldog had only one bite to her name, and that was in a food-guarding situation. I'm sure NG could have shown the Chihuahua and blared "the dog actually named Killer... she's out of control... she's bitten children... will this dog have to be put to sleep?". And of course, showing lots of slo-mo shots with this dog snarling and lunging at people.

Instead, Victoria said, "this is a very stressed, fearful dog" and yes, gave her treats to bond with her, gave her a nice little house, and told the owner to spend more time with her. That's it. Would this dog have submitted if Cesar grabbed it by the scruff of its neck and pinned her to the floor? Probably. But again, why do it the hard way when you can go easy?

[QuickSilver]

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Basically, I think Cesar is a good person with a big heart, who loves dogs and means well.

Yea - high five - we agree on this. I don't think he is a bad person either...IMHO he is just using old skills that my fathers generation used.
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I agree with this too.

[inabowbina]

I like Cesar i think his methods in training are the best i seen. I don't really like Victoria though her methods seem to ... idk the word but if you have a dog that needs a lot of training you cant just keep giving it treats. Cesar seems to find better ways to reward the dogs then just treats like so many other trainers that rely on that too much.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I do not believe that Cesar abuses dogs.

Certain groups of people will say or do anything for attention. I believe that if they had evidence of abuse that he would be shut down, locked up and lose all sponsers.

Don't believe everything that you hear.

I'm not sure what your agenda is but you do not have me convinced of anything except that you would do or say anything to discredit Cesar.

if you look long enough you will find something to support your theories, however just because someone wrote a book about shock collars does not mean that they know any more about it than Cesar does.

One person says one thing another person says the opposite. Who do you believe. You believe what you want to believe, we all do. Does not make us right or wrong, just our own beliefs.

You don't like Cesar, I do, and you are not going to convince me that he abuses dogs or that you know more about dogs than he does.

and if there was one for falling over laughing my head off at just how wrong that is I put that up too.

Seriously... to funny. You all but had me thinking you meet this.

NO one at the level I hang with and learn from or tend to deal with in my life in this area would very think this was anything but the complete desire to learn and teach and share.

We all are far to busy to find things to support us and our beliefs when it right there on the TV screen in each and almost every pain filled stress filled second the dog is on the screen and even off.

Please do not belittle me, my leg work the hours and hours of study and the complete and total sacrific I have made for the life of one dog by say such things.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I can't seem to shut up on this thread!

WRT the bulldog episode... I did not think the bulldog seemed exceptionally stressed, and I didn't think Cesar was abusing her. I do think he was unnecessarily rough, as he often is, and he is often provoking the aggression he says he sees in the dog. Use the right tool for the job.

Compare this with Victoria's latest episode -- there was a chihuahua named "Killer" who was extremely people aggressive, and had bitten not only the owner, but the owner's two-year-old daughter. Bella the bulldog had only one bite to her name, and that was in a food-guarding situation. I'm sure NG could have shown the Chihuahua and blared "the dog actually named Killer... she's out of control... she's bitten children... will this dog have to be put to sleep?". And of course, showing lots of slo-mo shots with this dog snarling and lunging at people.

Instead, Victoria said, "this is a very stressed, fearful dog" and yes, gave her treats to bond with her, gave her a nice little house, and told the owner to spend more time with her. That's it. Would this dog have submitted if Cesar grabbed it by the scruff of its neck and pinned her to the floor? Probably. But again, why do it the hard way when you can go easy?

Cesar also has had several episodes with nasty little chis. Apparently this is normal behavior for these little dogs. He did not have to use anything on the dog, nor did he bribe the dog. he simlpy did the Chhhhhht and by the end of the show the dog was letting the baby touch him, which he never did before.

Different dogs, different problems, require different tactics. With Victoria, I get the feeling once you run out of food the dog ill no longer behave. She has them feeding the dog everytime it does the right thing. He corrects when they do the wrong thing and rewards with affection when they do the right thing. And that is more in accordance with what happens in the dog pack. If you behave I won't snap at you. The top dog does not run around with a bag of treats.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I can't seem to shut up on this thread!

WRT the bulldog episode... I did not think the bulldog seemed exceptionally stressed, and I didn't think Cesar was abusing her. I do think he was unnecessarily rough, as he often is, and he is often provoking the aggression he says he sees in the dog. Use the right tool for the job.

Compare this with Victoria's latest episode -- there was a chihuahua named "Killer" who was extremely people aggressive, and had bitten not only the owner, but the owner's two-year-old daughter. Bella the bulldog had only one bite to her name, and that was in a food-guarding situation. I'm sure NG could have shown the Chihuahua and blared "the dog actually named Killer... she's out of control... she's bitten children... will this dog have to be put to sleep?". And of course, showing lots of slo-mo shots with this dog snarling and lunging at people.

Instead, Victoria said, "this is a very stressed, fearful dog" and yes, gave her treats to bond with her, gave her a nice little house, and told the owner to spend more time with her. That's it. Would this dog have submitted if Cesar grabbed it by the scruff of its neck and pinned her to the floor? Probably. But again, why do it the hard way when you can go easy?

Sorry - what does WRT mean? lol. I can't seem to get out of this thread, either. I keep popping in from my iPhone too, lol.

I never saw that episode you're talking of with Victoria (damn! I need to catch up!) but yes, I guess you could consider maybe he is making it harder than it truly is. But in all honesty, I'd be a lot more comfortable trying to train an aggressive Chihuahua than a large American Bulldog. It'd be a lot easier for me to get myself to slowly give treats to a tiny "evil" chihuahua than trying to cozy up to a 80+ pound Bulldog in the nice way, lol. I don't know.

Oh, the one thing I do like about Cesar's show more is how the owners send in updates on the dogs he worked with, and they're honest... sometimes the dog has not improved at all, sometimes the dog is doing good on most things but still working on others, but others the dog is 100% different. I like seeing the updates from the owners home videos and not TDW camera crew because then you know it's real. That's just something I've always liked about the show.

One thing that actually annoys me about Victoria's show is the way they shoot it, the camera angles and views. Maybe that's just me being my weird geeky self but I don't like the things that seem "acted" out... like when they show the owners in the kitchen arguing over the dog or something, that just irks me because I know some camera crew was there trying to tell them what to do and it's kind of acting. It just bugs me. (We've been on the news many times for my little brother's foundation we started and they do this stuff to my mom and stepfather - make them do normal stuff in the kitchen and film, or something, lol, it's so awkward) And when they do a shot from down from the dogs point of view with Victoria saying "stay" and holding her hands out or something. But I don't know, I think that's the main reason I like TDW better than IMoTD - it always seemed to have a more "real" effect to me. I know it's all just part of television, both shows, but that's just something I picked up on.

One thing I actually love about Victoria though - I love when she brings her clients gifts, lol. The one I watched today she bought them a whole new bed spread and said there better be no dog hair on this when I get back! I've also seen her many times come into a pee stained house and bring a steam cleaner and help clean the house, etc. I think that's really cool of her.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

he simlpy did the Chhhhhht and by the end of the show the dog was letting the baby touch him, which he never did before.

.

CHHHHHT is an interuptor and it on its own will not fix a behaiour. What went on in the background off camera that hit the floor of the edting room????? right we do not know.

Joy

[Britster]

I actually would really LOVE to be able to talk to someone personally who has been on the show. It's too bad the Yorkies owners who have been on it don't belong to this site! I'd love to hear their opinions since they had first hand experience.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

and if there was one for falling over laughing my head off at just how wrong that is I put that up too.

Seriously... to funny. You all but had me thinking you meet this.

Know one at the level I hang with and learn from or tend to deal with in my life in this area would very think this was anything but the complete desire to learn and teach.
We all are far to busy to find things to support us and our beliefs when it right there on the TV screen in each and almost every pain filled stress filled second the dog is on the screen and even off.

Please do not belittle me, my leg work the hours and hours of study and the complete and total sacrific I have made for the life of one dog by say such things.

JL

I'm not belittleing you, making fun of you, or falling off my chair laughing at you.

Just exactly what did I say that wasn't true? I have watched hours and hours of TDW and at the end of the show I see happy dogs and happy people walking and playing with their happy dogs.

Quicksilver, on the other hand is trying to teach, and is also open minded and trying to learn.

You can't teach someone who already knows everything.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I'm not belittleing you, making fun of you, or falling off my chair laughing at you.

Just exactly what did I say that wasn't true? I have watched hours and hours of TDW and at the end of the show I see happy dogs and happy people walking and playing with their happy dogs.

Quicksilver, on the other hand is trying to teach, and is also open minded and trying to learn.

You can't teach someone who already knows everything.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

CHHHHHT is an interuptor and it on its own will not fix a behaiour. What went on in the background off camera that hit the floor of the edting room????? right we do not know.

Joy

We do not know that there was anything cut. As long as you're convinced that there is more going on behind the scenes, there is no reasoning with you.

Maybe Victoria switches dogs, and the bad dog is removed and the well behaved trained dog is put in it's place.

The chhhhht stops the behavior and redirects them. It would not be very effective if a dog were lunging at your throuat, but it does stop unthreatening bad behavior.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Britster

I actually would really LOVE to be able to talk to someone personally who has been on the show. It's too bad the Yorkies owners who have been on it don't belong to this site! I'd love to hear their opinions since they had first hand experience.

He's been in Omaha. maybe I should call him to come to my house.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Britster

One thing that actually annoys me about Victoria's show is the way they shoot it, the camera angles and views. Maybe that's just me being my weird geeky self but I don't like the things that seem "acted" out... like when they show the owners in the kitchen arguing over the dog or something, that just irks me because I know some camera crew was there trying to tell them what to do and it's kind of acting. It just bugs me. (We've been on the news many times for my little brother's foundation we started and they do this stuff to my mom and stepfather - make them do normal stuff in the kitchen and film, or something, lol, it's so awkward) And when they do a shot from down from the dogs point of view with Victoria saying "stay" and holding her hands out or something. But I don't know, I think that's the main reason I like TDW better than IMoTD - it always seemed to have a more "real" effect to me. I know it's all just part of television, both shows, but that's just something I picked up on.

I agree with that. I do find it funny when in some cases when it's from the dog's perspective, but I really hate the new format where she watches the owners on tv, exclaims over everything they are doing wrong, and then has a catchphrase like "I better get back there are help them out." I'd be happy to see that go.

WRT = with regard to.

WRT (ha!) treats - Victoria uses treats appropriately, and often does not give treats. Like with that little Pomeranian who lived with the Aussie Stains, she simply did not respond to his barking. When he stopped, after 20 minutes, she paid attention to him. She also used body blocking to keep both dogs out of the kitchen while the owners ate. And she used negative reinforcement with Stains (remotely scolded him) when he tried to steal food. So it's not like she is showering treats out left and right.

I DO think it can be hard for owners to work treats in and out of the learning process, and I am struggling with this now. Treats should be used to teach and guide the dog, and then once it's a habit, treats should stop.

[livingdustmops]

I certainly hope people read this (Joy posted it) and understand what is going on.

http://www.learningdog.com/articles/...64436/7096.htm