Cesar debate thread

[livingdustmops]

Since no one answered my question I am going to ask it again...not to be argumentative but to understand. I will tell you I don't always listed to my vet in regards to vaccinations.
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This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods?

[QuickSilver]

Some more thoughts:

While different methods may work on different dogs, keep in mind that often different methods will work on the same dog. Then you have to ask yourself, what are the pros and cons of each method?

In the cases where I was very bothered by Cesar's techniques, he was not working with particularly aggressive dogs, though some may have appeared more aggressive because they got frustrated with his manhandling.

In VS's show last night, there was a dog-aggressive dog, a person-aggressive dog, and a dog who wouldn't take a bath. Oh, and one of these dogs had serious separation anxiety... with another dog!

I'm sure Cesar's methods would have solved these problems too - he could have forced each dog into submission, frightened it, and taught it that Very Bad Things happen when it is aggressive to people, dogs, or won't get in the tub. But these methods were totally unnecessary - VS actually got the stinky dog to ENJOY baths, she addressed two emotional problems that made the dogs happier, and she used gentle rules to tell the dog not to be rude to other dogs. And she put in a poop fence so the dogs didn't destroy the backyard with their waste.

Why would you use force and domination when you can get the same results in a gentler way?

[QuickSilver]

Something else that irks me about Cesar's show is how much he objects when an owner with "weak energy" interferes (ie, they don't agree 100% with his methods, and they insist on being present while he jerks their dog back and forth). This seems like one more way Cesar's methods present more like witchcraft than training. VS has had trouble with owners who won't follow her suggestions, but she's never said "you can't be here while I train your dog."

[MaddieBoo]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Some more thoughts:

While different methods may work on different dogs, keep in mind that often different methods will work on the same dog. Then you have to ask yourself, what are the pros and cons of each method?

In the cases where I was very bothered by Cesar's techniques, he was not working with particularly aggressive dogs, though some may have appeared more aggressive because they got frustrated with his manhandling.

In VS's show last night, there was a dog-aggressive dog, a person-aggressive dog, and a dog who wouldn't take a bath. Oh, and one of these dogs had serious separation anxiety... with another dog!

I'm sure Cesar's methods would have solved these problems too - he could have forced each dog into submission, frightened it, and taught it that Very Bad Things happen when it is aggressive to people, dogs, or won't get in the tub. But these methods were totally unnecessary - VS actually got the stinky dog to ENJOY baths, she addressed two emotional problems that made the dogs happier, and she used gentle rules to tell the dog not to be rude to other dogs. And she put in a poop fence so the dogs didn't destroy the backyard with their waste.

Why would you use force and domination when you can get the same results in a gentler way?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Since no one answered my question I am going to ask it again...not to be argumentative but to understand. I will tell you I don't always listed to my vet in regards to vaccinations.
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This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods?

I don't agree 100% with what Cesar does and would never disrespect any experts who have worked with canines their entire lives. I think that's great. But it doesn't always mean they're right. I tend to be the kind of person though to be stubborn and I am often the person disagreeing or debating with so called "experts" in any subject. For example, probably 5 times out of 10, I think doctors are wrong and just in the business for the money. Yet, we still need them around, obviously because they do have more background & education in the medical field that most don't have and I respect them for going through medical school and being able to become a doctor. But does that necessarily make them right all the time? No. Does it mean their opinion matters for everything? No. Sometimes people know their own body entirely better than doctors do. Just like owners can sometimes know their own dog better than any experts out there. May be a terrible example but I'm horrible with words.

But for those blank__ number of experts who are against Cesar's ideas, there's also going to be blank__ number of experts who are for Cesar's methods. Just as with any situation. There's always going to be two sides to everything. Always. It's what makes the world go round. I think a big issue in today's world is balance (which Cesar ironically talks about a lot) I think if we could find more balance in the world, it would be a happier place. It seems we can never get to a happy medium, with the pendelum swaying in the middle, one is always heavier than the other. It's always Republicans take up most of the country, or Democrats take up most of the country. It never seems to be in between, 50/50, and that's just a problem with everything. If there were experts stating how amazing Cesar is with dogs, etc, then you would be disagreeing with THAT expert. There's many veterinarians, specialists, and other trainers who back up and support Cesar, so does that make them not an expert just because you disagree with them? Kind of confusing but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

So, what makes Victoria Stillwell more of an "expert" than Cesar Millan? They both have obviously been around a lot of dogs in their lifetimes. I know Victoria started out with a dog walking business and during her acting on London's West End, began focusing more on dog training. Cesar started, around the age of 13, working in a dog grooming places, different veternarians offices, and while growing up in Mexico, was always around dogs. I don't believe either one of them has any "formal" training to back them up besides simply experience? Which I don't think is a big deal (experience makes for better learning, in my opinon) I'm just saying, what makes one or the other "more" of an "expert"?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Something else that irks me about Cesar's show is how much he objects when an owner with "weak energy" interferes (ie, they don't agree 100% with his methods, and they insist on being present while he jerks their dog back and forth). This seems like one more way Cesar's methods present more like witchcraft than training. VS has had trouble with owners who won't follow her suggestions, but she's never said "you can't be here while I train your dog."

I don't ever see it as the owner not liking what Cesar is doing. It's true that a weak energy can make a dog worse or more nervous so while in the training process, why not take away that weak source? Also, generally, the owner will be watching from behind a bush or from inside through a window. It's the same thing when you take your dog to get groomed, 99.9% of groomers do NOT allow the owner to stay while the dog is getting groomed because the dog will often times act out or act totally different than they would without the owner present.

The one thing that does tend to annoy me about Cesar (yes, even Cesar can annoy ME sometimes!) is his constant remarks about the dog trying to be dominant or whatever. Sometimes he will say that and I really don't think the dog was trying to be dominant... I think it was just either trying to get his point across or whatever. I don't have any particular episodes in my mind but I remember a few times being like... "OK, Cesar, enough with the dominance crap." You can tell when a dog is truly being dominant or not.

[Britster]

Oh, and I wanted to say (maybe I should post this in her "Love thread, LOL) that I watched an episode of It's Me or the Dog this morning with two Great Danes and I really liked that episode. It was a man named Rick and he allowed this dog to get away with murder and didn't really think that anything was wrong with his behavior, however the wife was very angry with it. I really liked the techniques she used.

The thing is, I think they both have the same basic principle of training, it's just V.S. goes about it in a softer way. She is always bringing up leadership (which Cesar describes as being Alpha, which I think is the exact same thing as being your dogs leader) When trying to get a dog to back up before going the door, she uses her body to kind of move him away, the only difference is she doesn't do the "Shhh" noise but she's also using her body to communicate with the dog, which Cesar does as well. I don't know... I just don't think that they're THAT different in their main ideas minus being more harsh. They both pretty much believe in exercise, disipline and affection, they just say things in a different way.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Since no one answered my question I am going to ask it again...not to be argumentative but to understand. I will tell you I don't always listed to my vet in regards to vaccinations.
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This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods?

I'll try to answer your question, first of all, from all my education; I found that there are no "true" experts. The more I studied my field the more I realized science doesn't know very much. There are some solid facts in science, but how the experts "interpret" these facts, would be considered "opinion." The interpretation of facts opens up the large can of worms, and until more real facts come in, a variety of opinions could still have merit. Leading opinions change in the scientific world, and rarely do all the experts agree on how these facts should be interpreted in the larger picture. I read a few of your links, and couldn't find specifically why they were against Cesar, I can understand that they are against a certain method, but again, that is their opinion. I can't see how they could be against everything Cesar stands for, and if they are against everything, then I disagree with them. I take from Cesar the things in which I fully agree, the things, in which, my background in Learning and Behavior theory would support.

One of the primary reasons, I support Cesar is his attention to assertive behavior. I'm thoroughly convinced everyone should learn to be assertive, this doesn't mean aggressive. I'm familiar with assertive training for humans, and I believe in should be taught in kindergarten, I think it is such a valuable tool to know, understand, and in integrate into your personality. When I saw Cesar describing some of the assertive methods, I was thrilled, I think if people would learn this way of being they would be not only great with their dogs, but with other humans, and even great forum debaters! As far as the interpretation of dominant, I see nothing wrong with teaching a dog that humans are the boss. I'm am the boss of Joey, and I was the boss of my children when they lived with me, and I would love to have a boss like me. I do not see the family structure as all equal, or a democracy.

I can also tell you that because Cesar had no formal education, there will be a bias towards him. For example, an expert in the field of psychology is always against someone who comes out with a "pop" psychology book. No matter how helpful people find the book, they always would say, the book is dangerous because of XYZ. Usually, they haven't even read the whole book, but there is a definite basis in academia towards commercial success. Should we ignore the experts, of course not, should we do the alpha roll, I wouldn't, but even Cesar says that you shouldn't attempt this yourselves. Cesar's attitudes and methods might change through the years; I believe that he is doing more good than harm. For those whose dogs rule the roost, he's teaching that this isn't a good thing for your dog, and doesn't fulfill its needs. For those who are really aggressive and hit their dogs, he gives them better ways to gain control without hitting. He believes you should never hit your dog. I think many of you are forgetting how many of these large aggressive dogs have been kicked, hit and beaten, and I think this goes on much more than you realize. I have read threads on Yorkietalk where people suggest hitting their dogs! So when you say the experts are against Cesar's methods, I think how could they be against all his methods?

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Since no one answered my question I am going to ask it again...not to be argumentative but to understand. I will tell you I don't always listed to my vet in regards to vaccinations.
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This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods?

I trust my own judgement more than the judgement of strangers. I have found that way too many "experts" have an agenda - a product to push, a cause to support, etc.

With my dogs I trust my own instincts - I KNOW that I can learn from every single dog owner - what would work for me or what wouldn't work for me. I watch and listen to everyone I can and glean what I believe will work for my dogs and discard the rest. I AM the best trainer for MY dogs and I work hard at finding the methods and techniques that work for me.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'll try to answer your question, first of all, from all my education; I found that there are no "true" experts. The more I studied my field the more I realized science doesn't know very much. There are some solid facts in science, but how the experts "interpret" these facts, would be considered "opinion." The interpretation of facts opens up the large can of worms, and until more real facts come in, a variety of opinions could still have merit. Leading opinions change in the scientific world, and rarely do all the experts agree on how these facts should be interpreted in the larger picture. I read a few of your links, and couldn't find specifically why they were against Cesar, I can understand that they are against a certain method, but again, that is their opinion. I can't see how they could be against everything Cesar stands for, and if they are against everything, then I disagree with them. I take from Cesar the things in which I fully agree, the things, in which, my background in Learning and Behavior theory would support.

One of the primary reasons, I support Cesar is his attention to assertive behavior. I'm thoroughly convinced everyone should learn to be assertive, this doesn't mean aggressive. I'm familiar with assertive training for humans, and I believe in should be taught in kindergarten, I think it is such a valuable tool to know, understand, and in integrate into your personality. When I saw Cesar describing some of the assertive methods, I was thrilled, I think if people would learn this way of being they would be not only great with their dogs, but with other humans, and even great forum debaters! As far as the interpretation of dominant, I see nothing wrong with teaching a dog that humans are the boss. I'm am the boss of Joey, and I was the boss of my children when they lived with me, and I would love to have a boss like me. I do not see the family structure as all equal, or a democracy.

I can also tell you that because Cesar had no formal education, there will be a bias towards him. For example, an expert in the field of psychology is always against someone who comes out with a "pop" psychology book. No matter how helpful people find the book, they always would say, the book is dangerous because of XYZ. Usually, they haven't even read the whole book, but there is a definite basis in academia towards commercial success. Should we ignore the experts, of course not, should we do the alpha roll, I wouldn't, but even Cesar says that you shouldn't attempt this yourselves. Cesar's attitudes and methods might change through the years; I believe that he is doing more good than harm. For those whose dogs rule the roost, he's teaching that this isn't a good thing for your dog, and doesn't fulfill its needs. For those who are really aggressive and hit their dogs, he gives them better ways to gain control without hitting. He believes you should never hit your dog. I think many of you are forgetting how many of these large aggressive dogs have been kicked, hit and beaten, and I think this goes on much more than you realize. I have read threads on Yorkietalk where people suggest hitting their dogs! So when you say the experts are against Cesar's methods, I think how could they be against all his methods?

Bravo!

Once again, Nancy, you're much better with words than me. Thanks for stepping into the thread, I really 100% agree with your posts.

[Nancy1999]

Lol, I meant to say, "There is a definite bias in academia towards commercial success."

[Britster]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I trust my own judgement more than the judgement of strangers. I have found that way too many "experts" have an agenda - a product to push, a cause to support, etc.

With my dogs I trust my own instincts - I KNOW that I can learn from every single dog owner - what would work for me or what wouldn't work for me. I watch and listen to everyone I can and glean what I believe will work for my dogs and discard the rest. I AM the best trainer for MY dogs and I work hard at finding the methods and techniques that work for me.

Exactly! Basically what I was trying to say, lol.

[chattiesmom]

After reading Nancy's post -- I don't want to do the quote thingie cause it makes the thread so long......

But I have to agree that I have learned more about dealing with people from two very unusual sources - a well known horse trainer - John Lyons, and dog trainer Ceasar Milan. That doesn't mean that I think they walk on water or that every work they utter is the gospel truth. It means that I have gained/gleaned a lot of insight that I can adapt to work for me both in dealing with people and with my critters.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Since no one answered my question I am going to ask it again...not to be argumentative but to understand. I will tell you I don't always listed to my vet in regards to vaccinations.
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This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods?

Here are my very quick thoughts on this.
First cause we as humans are afraid of change.
Second we as humans are afraid we may have made a mistake and may have to admit it. So we tend to burry ones head in the sand and not deal. Easier to beat up the messager and hope they go away. Then change.
Third we as humans tend to not trust science as it tends to change ...cause it does as we learn more.
Fourth it easier to go with what we are raised with then to go against what we have been taught facts not withstanding.
Fifth he got more flash and cute than many of the sicence based guys out there. And hay who does not like watching a cute butt with a cute accent on tv. then one that is not so cute and knows more.. sex sells even in a dog training show.
Sixth it sells rough tough in your face is just more sale worth in some eyes.
Seventh it easier to believe what we think we know as facts as it always been understood to be so ,,,you know the nice little wives tails than reallity.
eight.. we as human need pack order in our lives to make the world make sence so there for we slap it on everything else even if they do not work that way.
nine. If we really had to learn this stuff to save a life, then some of us would but most just want the fast fix and a wham bam thank man over. not to even see the pain it causes. Cause we hav control and control is all important that power rush thing.
Ten did I say it sells.. he is cute. He got a hard luck bring himslef by the boot strap story that all to many fall all over and respect. Miss Oprah got on his band wagon and that all she wrote..

JL

[chachi]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'll try to answer your question, first of all, from all my education; I found that there are no "true" experts. The more I studied my field the more I realized science doesn't know very much. There are some solid facts in science, but how the experts "interpret" these facts, would be considered "opinion." The interpretation of facts opens up the large can of worms, and until more real facts come in, a variety of opinions could still have merit. Leading opinions change in the scientific world, and rarely do all the experts agree on how these facts should be interpreted in the larger picture. I read a few of your links, and couldn't find specifically why they were against Cesar, I can understand that they are against a certain method, but again, that is their opinion. I can't see how they could be against everything Cesar stands for, and if they are against everything, then I disagree with them. I take from Cesar the things in which I fully agree, the things, in which, my background in Learning and Behavior theory would support.

One of the primary reasons, I support Cesar is his attention to assertive behavior. I'm thoroughly convinced everyone should learn to be assertive, this doesn't mean aggressive. I'm familiar with assertive training for humans, and I believe in should be taught in kindergarten, I think it is such a valuable tool to know, understand, and in integrate into your personality. When I saw Cesar describing some of the assertive methods, I was thrilled, I think if people would learn this way of being they would be not only great with their dogs, but with other humans, and even great forum debaters! As far as the interpretation of dominant, I see nothing wrong with teaching a dog that humans are the boss. I'm am the boss of Joey, and I was the boss of my children when they lived with me, and I would love to have a boss like me. I do not see the family structure as all equal, or a democracy.

I can also tell you that because Cesar had no formal education, there will be a bias towards him. For example, an expert in the field of psychology is always against someone who comes out with a "pop" psychology book. No matter how helpful people find the book, they always would say, the book is dangerous because of XYZ. Usually, they haven't even read the whole book, but there is a definite basis in academia towards commercial success. Should we ignore the experts, of course not, should we do the alpha roll, I wouldn't, but even Cesar says that you shouldn't attempt this yourselves. Cesar's attitudes and methods might change through the years; I believe that he is doing more good than harm. For those whose dogs rule the roost, he's teaching that this isn't a good thing for your dog, and doesn't fulfill its needs. For those who are really aggressive and hit their dogs, he gives them better ways to gain control without hitting. He believes you should never hit your dog. I think many of you are forgetting how many of these large aggressive dogs have been kicked, hit and beaten, and I think this goes on much more than you realize. I have read threads on Yorkietalk where people suggest hitting their dogs! So when you say the experts are against Cesar's methods, I think how could they be against all his methods?

I agree! well said