Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I was just asking a question.
How many large kennels have you visited that you know the condition of the dogs and how many they raise a year?
Seems like I remember how much you liked Lake Buena Vista's kennels.
How many litters do you think they raise a year in this huge kennel.
Don't get me wrong it is clean but its a big kennel.
Lake Buena Vista Kennel Instalacoes

I am not a LBV fan..so I will reframe from commenting. I have been to several dozen well known breeders homes/kennels...25% did not impress me and I would not want any of mine living there...I have had 5 champions myself..and I do not count myself among the breeders that have earned the right to breed as much as they please.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by BFar

OMG sorry. I wrote pretty much the same thing. Sorry. I didn't see your post or I wouldn't have repeated it. I'm on puppy watch is my excuse.

I like to see all replies, gives me an idea of how breeders think...

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

To me kenneling and crating are two seperate meanings when it comes to show breeding.

Donna

You hit the nail on the head...I had nothing less then 2x3 and 4x4 for sleeping and 6x10 up to 6x18 for free time. (indoors)..I have never had any Yorkie crated during waking hours if I was home..and I did not work...unless they had puppies.

[YorkieRose]

I looked at LBV kennel page...now I will comment on the kennel only.....no way, hell no would I raise any toy breed in that marble mausoleum...maybe a large animal like a Dane..or horse.

When I visited Carol Confer of Elite the first time (years ago)...she had red, checked curtains on each window and matching beds..the main room was no bigger then the average family room , another large room for puppies to play indoors...and a grooming area...that is what I am used to seeing in a show kennel...

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

The difference is "show breeders" are improving the breed as in researching, health testing, involved in genetic research, researching pedigrees, continuing to preserve the breed and not just supplying a pet demand. That is the difference [IMG]file:///C:/Users/DONNA%27%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]Please don't take offense [IMG]file:///C:/Users/DONNA%27%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

Donna

No offense at all, Donna.

But here comes the question: If great show breeders are primarily concerned with preserving the breed, are they doing that by breeding in mass? Presumably, they are only keeping the dogs that meet their showing goals. The rest are placed in homes. Now, presumably again, those dogs are placed on spay and neuter contracts because those dogs weren't fit for showing and therefore, not fit for breeding. So how is that improving the breed if the lineage stops there? Or are they selling these dogs to other breeders as "good enough" to breed? And if these "good enough" dogs are breeding, how are they controlling the progeny to make sure the lines stay strong? Limited registrations haven’t helped; the unscrupulous breeder just goes and registers with an alternate registry and keeps going.

I'm going to pull a number out of the air here; since I can't seem to find a good answer to what percentage of pups from a show breeder are show- worthy. If 1 out of every 25 pups is championable (is that a word?) , what about the other 24? Granted, it's more likely that these pups are well vetted and less likely to have health problems than the mill dogs, but that's still 24 dogs brought in to an already over populated pet world. I'm not saying that these high volume show breeders are the cause of the overpopulation problem, but surely they are adding to it every bit as much as the byb'er.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Some pet owners do not think a dog should ever be in a "cage". Others think it's okay for part of the day, and some people seem to think 24/7 is fine. Joey goes in his cage on his own for large parts of the day. I do not think we should crucify any breeder just because she keeps her dogs in cages/crates. I've read threads where breeders allowed their pet dogs to have babies, and because they were pets, the female didn't really want to spend time with their babies, they wanted to be with the human, not the babies. I read threads where pet owners bred a female and another female in the house killed the puppies.

Is there really an ideal breeding condition? While I can picture some "idyllic" situations, there are always flaws in it. Reading the training forum, you will see some people don't even believe in crate training. I read of pet owners who keep dogs in a crate all day, and it drives me nuts. Many pet owners leave their dogs alone up to 12 hours a day, this is another thing I personally have a problem with. I actually think many breeders spend much more one on one time with their dogs, then many pet owners.

There is a huge difference between a dog that chooses to go in to a cage on its own, and one that is forced to stay in a cage/crate/xpen/kennel because it’s owner is too busy or has too many dogs to properly supervise it. I also won’t disagree that many breeders spend more one on one time than some many pet owners. But I don’t care how many kennel helpers you can afford to pay; the dog still loses out on the day to day bonding and interaction that is the reason this species, above all others, is so loved when it’s kenneled versus raised in a good home situation. So if it’s bad for the owner to do it, why is it ok for the breeder? If they truly love the dogs, why deprive them of something it needs to reach it’s full potential? It just seems hypocritical that these same breeders would point fingers at the mills and BYB’ers and say they are bad for the way they treat their dogs, while doing essentially the same thing themselves, just in better conditions.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a high volume show breeder producing more dogs isn’t going to put the BYB’er or mills out of business. It’s not going to improve the overall health of the breed nor preserve the traits of the Yorkie as long as everyone is over breeding. I just see a lot of excusing A,B and C because someone does X,Y and Z.

ETA: Not sure why Brooklyn's quote came out so strange. I've been having lots of issues with quoting lately

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I looked at LBV kennel page...now I will comment on the kennel only.....no way, hell no would I raise any toy breed in that marble mausoleum...maybe a large animal like a Dane..or horse.

When I visited Carol Confer of Elite the first time (years ago)...she had red, checked curtains on each window and matching beds..the main room was no bigger then the average family room , another large room for puppies to play indoors...and a grooming area...that is what I am used to seeing in a show kennel...

That's what I think too....OH man I wanted a barn set up like that when I had horses! To me that kennel is too cold looking for a toy breed but it does look clean.

I see a kennel like you described almost like a living area for dogs and a puppy room.

Donna

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I looked at LBV kennel page...now I will comment on the kennel only.....no way, hell no would I raise any toy breed in that marble mausoleum...maybe a large animal like a Dane..or horse.

When I visited Carol Confer of Elite the first time (years ago)...she had red, checked curtains on each window and matching beds..the main room was no bigger then the average family room , another large room for puppies to play indoors...and a grooming area...that is what I am used to seeing in a show kennel...

Good point, I can't imagine any dog living without bedding. The marble might be easy to clean, but so cold.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Good point, I can't imagine any dog living without bedding. The marble might be easy to clean, but so cold.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You seem to be ignoring my words, "if done properly." I fantasize about this, here's some pictures of some nice kennels. Lake Buena Vista Kennel Instalacoes. And then I think what if the kennels were on the same property as a retirement/nursing home, and the old folks could play with the dogs. Sounds ripe for abusive conditions to occur.

Isnt this you commenting on how nice LBV kennels are?

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I looked at LBV kennel page...now I will comment on the kennel only.....no way, hell no would I raise any toy breed in that marble mausoleum...maybe a large animal like a Dane..or horse.

When I visited Carol Confer of Elite the first time (years ago)...she had red, checked curtains on each window and matching beds..the main room was no bigger then the average family room , another large room for puppies to play indoors...and a grooming area...that is what I am used to seeing in a show kennel...

That sounds to me more like living quarters indoors. The word kennel, in the best sense... to me...means a set up similar to LBV. Not necessarily that elaborate but runs attached to a building.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

No offense at all, Donna.

But here comes the question: If great show breeders are primarily concerned with preserving the breed, are they doing that by breeding in mass? Presumably, they are only keeping the dogs that meet their showing goals. The rest are placed in homes. Now, presumably again, those dogs are placed on spay and neuter contracts because those dogs weren't fit for showing and therefore, not fit for breeding. So how is that improving the breed if the lineage stops there? Or are they selling these dogs to other breeders as "good enough" to breed? And if these "good enough" dogs are breeding, how are they controlling the progeny to make sure the lines stay strong? Limited registrations haven’t helped; the unscrupulous breeder just goes and registers with an alternate registry and keeps going.

I'm going to pull a number out of the air here; since I can't seem to find a good answer to what percentage of pups from a show breeder are show- worthy. If 1 out of every 25 pups is championable (is that a word?) , what about the other 24? Granted, it's more likely that these pups are well vetted and less likely to have health problems than the mill dogs, but that's still 24 dogs brought in to an already over populated pet world. I'm not saying that these high volume show breeders are the cause of the overpopulation problem, but surely they are adding to it every bit as much as the byb'er.



There is a huge difference between a dog that chooses to go in to a cage on its own, and one that is forced to stay in a cage/crate/xpen/kennel because it’s owner is too busy or has too many dogs to properly supervise it. I also won’t disagree that many breeders spend more one on one time than some many pet owners. But I don’t care how many kennel helpers you can afford to pay; the dog still loses out on the day to day bonding and interaction that is the reason this species, above all others, is so loved when it’s kenneled versus raised in a good home situation. So if it’s bad for the owner to do it, why is it ok for the breeder? If they truly love the dogs, why deprive them of something it needs to reach it’s full potential? It just seems hypocritical that these same breeders would point fingers at the mills and BYB’ers and say they are bad for the way they treat their dogs, while doing essentially the same thing themselves, just in better conditions.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a high volume show breeder producing more dogs isn’t going to put the BYB’er or mills out of business. It’s not going to improve the overall health of the breed nor preserve the traits of the Yorkie as long as everyone is over breeding. I just see a lot of excusing A,B and C because someone does X,Y and Z.

ETA: Not sure why Brooklyn's quote came out so strange. I've been having lots of issues with quoting lately

My husband and I both work and my dogs are in large kennels while we are away because I just can't have all them running loose in my house while we are working wouldn't be safe. But one good thing for me is my husband only works 2 miles from the house and comes home for lunch everyday. If he can't come home then I come home for lunch and let them out to potty. If done right I see no problem.
You know they also have waiting lists for other show exhibitors that want to obtain from them as well. All the breeders I know that place as pets are all on spay neuter contracts. If these show breeders didn't place show dogs in other exhibitors homes "I" wouldn't have what I have now.

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I looked at LBV kennel page...now I will comment on the kennel only.....no way, hell no would I raise any toy breed in that marble mausoleum...maybe a large animal like a Dane..or horse.

When I visited Carol Confer of Elite the first time (years ago)...she had red, checked curtains on each window and matching beds..the main room was no bigger then the average family room , another large room for puppies to play indoors...and a grooming area...that is what I am used to seeing in a show kennel...

I am not in anyway diffending LBV, but you must remember this is in Buenos Aires. Its very warm and humid. Growing up in PR you see nothing but concrete and marble floors and open air windows just like they had. Most do not have or need AC, so this actually keeps the temp down in the house or kennel. PR is 85' year round and so is Buenos Aires. They are use to more of a decor with a Spaniard influence.

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Isnt this you commenting on how nice LBV kennels are?

Breezeway, come on be nice....

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

I am not in anyway diffending LBV, but you must remember this is in Buenos Aires. Its very warm and humid. Growing up in PR you see nothing but concrete and marble floors and open air windows just like they had. Most do not have or need AC, so this actually keeps the temp down in the house or kennel. PR is 85' year round and so is Buenos Aires. They are use to more of a decor with a Spaniard influence.

You're right that geographics enter into the whole equation. South American's differ in their breeding practices than here. As do those in Mexico and Europe. For instance in Europe breeders do not have the option of limited registration, the law doesn't allow them that option. When they leave a breeder's home, the control is in the hands of the buyer. The one thing I do like about Europe is that dogs cannot obtain points toward their Championship until 18 months of age.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Isnt this you commenting on how nice LBV kennels are?

Did you read my post? Note how I said if done properly, and the I use the word "fantasize". I do think about what would be an idealic situations for dogs, note the retirement and nursing home on the same grounds, where old people can play with the dogs. I also say, "it sounds ripe for abusive conditons."

Seriously, this post does not mean I am recommending LBV. I just have seen so many pictures like this. puppy2.jpg

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You seem to be ignoring my words, "if done properly." I fantasize about this, here's some pictures of some nice kennels. Lake Buena Vista Kennel Instalacoes. And then I think what if the kennels were on the same property as a retirement/nursing home, and the old folks could play with the dogs. Sounds ripe for abusive conditions to occur.

That was taken from a thread on breeder legislation, I also said I had no problem with a breeder breeding 10 litters if done properly. Now that's the catch, what I think is proper and what you think is proper are two different things.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

I am not in anyway diffending LBV, but you must remember this is in Buenos Aires. Its very warm and humid. Growing up in PR you see nothing but concrete and marble floors and open air windows just like they had. Most do not have or need AC, so this actually keeps the temp down in the house or kennel. PR is 85' year round and so is Buenos Aires. They are use to more of a decor with a Spaniard influence.

Parkside lives in PR...anyone seen her kennel?
I recall a picture of a 3 story house..and a picture of her back garden...