Allert all indiana breeders

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

The tequila must be working!!LOL

LOL!!! Totally busted.

[Nancy1999]

Lol, these last few posts give me an idea why some of our laws may be so "poorly written."

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Lol, these last few posts give me an idea why some of our laws may be so "poorly written."

[jeanief]

[[I]I]One thing that stands out to me is that this bill has the stated intent to stop puppy mills. The requirement for anyone that sells, or offers for sale, more than five puppies to register belies that intent. But just say that this bill passes in its current form. First off, there would have to be a window of time for any breeder, dealer or broker to register. Secondly, how can anyone force compliance unless they know who these people are in the first place? It's likely that those that are running a shady operation simply wouldn't register. So what you are left with are inspectors inspecting mostly 'good' operations once inspections do take place. The typical 'miller' would not have registered and you would still be relying on citizen complaints to get at them. How is that so different from what is in place now? Wouldn't it be simpler (and faster) to clearly define animal neglect/abuse, stiffen penalties for violators and use the USDA list as a starting point in identifying commercial breeders? Or does that make too much sense

100% RIGHT ON !!!!!!

[Woogie Man]

One other thing to consider. Indiana is forecast for a budget deficit of $763 million for the years 2009-2011. Unless this bill, or any other bill, can pay for itself, what are the realistic chances for enforcement? I got my info from this link Indiana revenue forecast shows huge budget deficit

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by jeanief

[[I]I]One thing that stands out to me is that this bill has the stated intent to stop puppy mills. The requirement for anyone that sells, or offers for sale, more than five puppies to register belies that intent. But just say that this bill passes in its current form. First off, there would have to be a window of time for any breeder, dealer or broker to register. Secondly, how can anyone force compliance unless they know who these people are in the first place? It's likely that those that are running a shady operation simply wouldn't register. So what you are left with are inspectors inspecting mostly 'good' operations once inspections do take place. The typical 'miller' would not have registered and you would still be relying on citizen complaints to get at them. How is that so different from what is in place now? Wouldn't it be simpler (and faster) to clearly define animal neglect/abuse, stiffen penalties for violators and use the USDA list as a starting point in identifying commercial breeders? Or does that make too much sense

100% RIGHT ON !!!!!!

Because people selling dogs, have to keep a record of where they purchased the dog from, consumers would able to learn where their dogs were bred, even though the actual breeding kennel never registered. This would allow authorities to learn the whereabouts of the kennels that aren't registered.

An awful lot of people are buying sickly dogs and this gives authorities some power to find out where these dogs are truly being bred. Maybe kennels producing sickly dogs would be the ones inspected first? You can have laws for neglect/abuse, but sometimes you need a system of check and balances to find the abusers.

[jeanief]

I have no problem with record keeping, thats a must. I however think we have bigger fish to fry , than a breeder breeding 10 litters. There are so many big mills out there and stay in business with just a slap on the wrist or nothing at all. I don't think they would register as breeder or commercial breeder. They would do their businees and hope they don't get caught. You want to get a eye opener? I am also going to give you a address of a legal puppymill that houses 500-600 dogs in my state. This is totally legal ! When you see the air photo/birds eye view, it looks like a cattle or horse barn. Nope, it's a dog breeding mill ( IMO) thats legal. Go to live search maps, then type in 1805 Riverview RD, little falls, MN. He was going to bebark them all , but the neighbors thought that was cruel, so instead he keeps them inside ALL THE TIME so the neighbors don't hear the 500 dogs bark. The laws that need to be addressed are dogs not being housed or treated like cattle ! All these pups go to pet stores all over the US. You want to have to have a drink? Go look for yourself, and then pass a few shots of tequila to me please.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by jeanief

I have no problem with record keeping, thats a must. I however think we have bigger fish to fry , than a breeder breeding 10 litters. There are so many big mills out there and stay in business with just a slap on the wrist or nothing at all. I don't think they would register as breeder or commercial breeder. They would do their businees and hope they don't get caught. You want to get a eye opener? I am also going to give you a address of a legal puppymill that houses 500-600 dogs in my state. This is totally legal ! When you see the air photo/birds eye view, it looks like a cattle or horse barn. Nope, it's a dog breeding mill ( IMO) thats legal. Go to live search maps, then type in 1805 Riverview RD, little falls, MN. He was going to bebark them all , but the neighbors thought that was cruel, so instead he keeps them inside ALL THE TIME so the neighbors don't hear the 500 dogs bark. The laws that need to be addressed are dogs not being housed or treated like cattle ! All these pups go to pet stores all over the US. You want to have to have a drink? Go look for yourself, and then pass a few shots of tequila to me please.

Breeders hate breeder restriction legislation. This legislation doesn't talk about restricting breeding; it just says that if you sell over 10 litters of puppies you must register.

I actually think there is nothing necessarily wrong with a place producing lots of dogs, if it's done properly.

[jeanief]

I actually think there is nothing necessarily wrong with a place producing lots of dogs, if it's done properly.

I could not disagree more !! Say that place has 500-600 dogs total. They breed 400 bitches once per yr. If 3 in a litter thats 1200 puppies. If they breed every heat for more $$, which they are all about , thats 2400 puppies. There is no possible way a place such as this can do it properly! Properly to me means love and attention, and exercise in the sun/outdoors for the adults, and finding proper homes for the puppies and being raised with human contact. For me the bill is just stupid, period, thats just they way I feel. Nobody that had 6 puppies to sell is going to register ! No BAD commercial breeder is going to register for 10 litters per YR. You could never enforce it. There is not enough inspectors right now in the ASPCA, USDA, or police on the streets, for more important issues! For me the more important issue is getting the USDA to understand dogs are not cattle and should never be housed or care for in this type of condition! They are licensed and have had violations in the past. Still doing business as usual. Why, because they can. They make $500,000 a yr and get a small fine or warning. These illbred dogs go out to 1000's of homes from petstores. How in the world could you socialize 1200-2400 puppies even with loads of employees? Like I said before there is way bigger fish to fry that affects way more dogs, puppies, buyers that are not enforced with the laws and bills we have in place at this time.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by jeanief

I actually think there is nothing necessarily wrong with a place producing lots of dogs, if it's done properly.

I could not disagree more !! Say that place has 500-600 dogs total. They breed 400 bitches once per yr. If 3 in a litter thats 1200 puppies. If they breed every heat for more $$, which they are all about , thats 2400 puppies. There is no possible way a place such as this can do it properly! Properly to me means love and attention, and exercise in the sun/outdoors for the adults, and finding proper homes for the puppies and being raised with human contact. For me the bill is just stupid, period, thats just they way I feel. Nobody that had 6 puppies to sell is going to register ! No BAD commercial breeder is going to register for 10 litters per YR. You could never enforce it. There is not enough inspectors right now in the ASPCA, USDA, or police on the streets, for more important issues! For me the more important issue is getting the USDA to understand dogs are not cattle and should never be housed or care for in this type of condition! They are licensed and have had violations in the past. Still doing business as usual. Why, because they can. They make $500,000 a yr and get a small fine or warning. These illbred dogs go out to 1000's of homes from petstores. How in the world could you socialize 1200-2400 puppies even with loads of employees? Like I said before there is way bigger fish to fry that affects way more dogs, puppies, buyers that are not enforced with the laws and bills we have in place at this time.

You seem to be ignoring my words, "if done properly." I fantasize about this, here's some pictures of some nice kennels. Lake Buena Vista Kennel Instalacoes. And then I think what if the kennels were on the same property as a retirement/nursing home, and the old folks could play with the dogs. Sounds ripe for abusive conditions to occur.

[Woogie Man]

Earlier in the thread, Nancy alluded to puppy mill lobbyists. I stated I could find no information about them and no one posted anything concrete about them. I found this to be an interesting site Puppy Mills & Dog Auctions On this site, you can click to find out about the Wisconsin Professional Pet Breeders Association, which does seem to be a puppy mill lobby group. There's also a place to click on about USDA inspectors, among other things. I realize this isn't specifically about Indiana but the issues are very similar state-to-state.

[Wylie's Mom]

Interesting, Jim. Very interesting.

What I found most interesting is how the "Millers" or huge volume breeders are using organizations such as this to make "Animal Welfare" dirty words. You can see how these entities are talking about laws and such and how what they're saying is even seen here at times when some people believe that "Animal Welfare" always equals "no more pets". It's just not true. Sure, some folks here at YT clearly do not like a couple of Animal Welfare organizations - and I get why.

But we shouldn't let these HUGE, volume breeders brainwash folks into thinking that all Animal Welfare=fanatics who don't want pets to exist. (I was reading here, specifically: Wisconsin Professional Pet Breeders Association)

I think some of what I read there also speaks to Nancy's point of no one looking out for the small breeder...and that it is these volume breeders who are trying scare and alarm the small breeder so that the volume breeders can keep churning puppies out, status quo. Interestingly, they're calling all legislation Anti-Pet Legislation....please! Ridiculous.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

But we shouldn't let these HUGE, volume breeders brainwash folks into thinking that all Animal Welfare=fanatics who don't want pets to exist. (I was reading here, specifically: Wisconsin Professional Pet Breeders Association)

I think some of what I read there also speaks to Nancy's point of no one looking out for the small breeder...and that it is these volume breeders who are trying scare and alarm the small breeder so that the volume breeders can keep churning puppies out, status quo. Interestingly, they're calling all legislation Anti-Pet Legislation....please! Ridiculous.

The part about the WPPBA is what I was specifically referring to. It does seem like the whole issue is being dominated by animal rights groups and miller interest groups. The small, responsible breeder doesn't seem to have a voice in the process and I think their input would be valuable in crafting legislation. As I see it, the only groups that could represent small breeder interests would be the breed clubs but I don't see anywhere that they are active in these legislative efforts. If you go to the link I posted, you'll also get a perspective as to why the USDA inspectors are ineffective in helping to stop these puppymills. Here's a direct link to that part of the site Thoughts on USDA Inspectors, etc. Also, here's a link to see how the Wisconsin Pet Facilities Law has fared Wisconsin Pet Facilities Law As I've posted before, enforcement is a prime issue, whether it's of a new law or ones already on the books. I don't think any of this info has changed my core opinion, but it has been enlightening on the 'nuts and bolts' of this issue.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

. . . The small, responsible breeder doesn't seem to have a voice in the process and I think their input would be valuable in crafting legislation. . .

This is exactly my point, unfortunately many of the small breeders seem to just regurgitating misinformation put out by special interest groups. Great to see that you check around.

[Woogie Man]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but, for me personally, it isn't so much about aping some of the commercial breeders views. It's more about whether these new laws really can/do address the problem better than current laws on the books. Also, a responsible breeder being opposed to parts of a bill is quite different from a miller being opposed to the very idea of a bill. The millers know they would be adversely affected by even the most narrowly focused bill. New or existing, a law is only as good as its enforcement. I posted a link earlier about Indiana's budget deficit and wondered whether it could afford the new law, if it were to be enforced. Most all states are in the same financial crunch so I have to ask myself if these new laws will be effective or will they just make it 'seem' like something is being done. Most breeders here (on this thread) have stated they would like to see stiffer penalties and better enforcement of existing laws. It may not be ideal to everyone but may be the most doable thing.