Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I've read here multiple times that breeding and showing is expensive, and a litter, done right, is not a profit maker. But wouldn't it be safe to assume that someone who has reached the level where they hiring kennel help and building out buildings for the multiple litters are probably turning a profit? I can't imagine that they are all independently wealthy.

Actually, many people got into breeding because they really wanted a hobby that they believed in, and they had the money to support their hobby. I can tell you that many good breeders place their breeding dogs for free in the hands of someone who has shown great promise, and a love for the breed. I know some of you will never believe it, and especially some breeders who can't get a good name to sell them a dog.

[Brooklynn]

Also, something else to consider, some of the top dogs in the country are backed by rich people with more money than you can ever imagine.

But I'm middle class, show my dogs on weekends that I can afford now and try not to go into financial ruin. I'll never be rich so I'll continue to be small potatoes in the dog show world but I will still have the passion for the breed and continue to strive for the best I can.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Also, something else to consider, some of the top dogs in the country are backed by rich people with more money than you can ever imagine.

But I'm middle class, show my dogs on weekends that I can afford now and try not to go into financial ruin. I'll never be rich so I'll continue to be small potatoes in the dog show world but I will still have the passion for the breed and continue to strive for the best I can.

Tell the truth, do you ever think you will come close to breaking even?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Do they have any sons? I've got 3 daughters here I need to marry off

Well, they are grown and married with children LOL

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Tell the truth, do you ever think you will come close to breaking even?

what's breaking even? I'm so far in the whole now I can barely see the sky LOL....really joking aside, I am in the hole considering what I've put into my dogs...that includes campaigning "two" yorkie specials and like I said, I haven't had a litter in 3 1/2 years and that was just a litter of 2.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

You know Jen, that Breeder and all Breeders like that should be reported. Without hesitation. Rescue will always be in my heart. I have helped YHR on many occasions and will always. My point is we need good responsible breeders that do the right thing not just for the money but for the breed. I started going to shows about 2 years ago and have met lots of exhibitors. I help do whatever and have proven myself worthy of loving and caring for one of their dogs. Thats how I got started. And you can betcha I will be in Houston showing at Reliant, then helping YHR Booth this summer.

I didn't think then or now about reporting the breeder, I don't think she did anything really that wrong in the "big picture" of dog breeding and puppy sales. If someone offered her that price for the pup and she accepted the offer, that is their business. It's not like she purposely breeds for off color, nor did she market the pup as such. My point in the post was only that high prices can be charged by any breeder.

I'm happy you are enjoying showing and wish you much success. And, of course I am thrilled and grateful you continue to help out the rescue pups!

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I've read here multiple times that breeding and showing is expensive, and a litter, done right, is not a profit maker. But wouldn't it be safe to assume that someone who has reached the level where they hiring kennel help and building out buildings for the multiple litters are probably turning a profit? I can't imagine that they are all independently wealthy.

I'm sure they are making a profit and others are too. I would think most are writing off on taxes as business expenses, the costs of showing, kenneling, employees, etc.

[gemy]

One of the "learnings" I will take from this thread, is that there will never be a case of "soley" numbers of annual litters, that can categorically state one way or the other, one is a good/poor/fair/better/best, breeder. Quite frankly it is not that simple as others have pointed out. And others have pointed out some of the other perhaps more important variables.

A reasonable question was asked, if there is say only 1 CH type dog in say 25 dogs, then you have 24 that are not CH quality...how is that bettering the breed?

I tried to allude to the answer in an earlier post of mine; if you are breeding to improve the standard, then the likelihood is very high, that this litter will all be good to very good representatives of the breed. That is 24 typey dogs, that actually look like Yorkies, have great temperament and health. If all breeders bred like this, then as another posted stated (look a golden retriever we see on the streets looks like a Golden, a GS like a GS), how come so often we can't be really sure if we are seeing a Yorkie? Then you would have Yorkies commonly seen on the street that would not be mistaken for whatever.

What we know from this list; instead we have lots of BYBERS, lots of individuals who want their female to have just one litter, lots of USDA licensed breeders who are NOT mandated to breed specific health test their breeding pairs, or required to breed only CH dogs. Then lets not forgot all the Yorkie mixes we have out there, some deliberately created, some/lots "oops" pregnancies.

Here is a dilemma. How many would be new Yorkie owners would you say there are annually in the USA? As a dog in the top 3 most registered and purchased breeds in North America; 25,000 new yorkies is not unreasonable to assume.

Now lets say 5000 of those yorkies will come from rescuse, shelters, or individual rehomes. That leaves us with 20,000 yorkies to be meet the demand. If one accepts the average litter size to be 4, that is 5,000 litters (or 5000 female yorkies to be bred every year).

The simple question is; where will all these litters come from? I can tell you there are not anywhere near 5,000 female yorkies being shown in any given year. The numbers are pretty staggering. If there are 200 different females being shown in any given year I'd be surprised, given the number I've seen at large shows. Given a safe breeding life of 6 years that still only gives you 1200 females when 5000 is needed.

Enter in the "mass or volumne" breeders and the BYBer's. Quite simply they wouldn't be breeding these, if they couldn't/didn't have a market for them. and that market is quite large indeed.

So looking at the numbers,one can see the extent of the problem, and can easily perceive the stress or pressure on our breed.

The sad reality is, there are just not enough "show breeders" to fulfill this demand. Where will the public go then? Well just exactly where they have gone. To the bybers, the pet stores, the mom and pop shop, and so on.

What is the solution???

[Furbaby Friend]

Originally Posted by jencar98

I'm sure they are making a profit and others are too. I would think most are writing off on taxes as business expenses, the costs of showing, kenneling, employees, etc.

I'm taking tax this upcoming semester. I'll get back to you on this. My professor is going to think I'm a nut

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by jencar98

I'm sure they are making a profit and others are too. I would think most are writing off on taxes as business expenses, the costs of showing, kenneling, employees, etc.

Well that's to be expected...not so certain there is some vast profit being made after the numbers are crunched though.

I boggle my own mine when I add up just my expenses in showing my dogs...

[Furbaby Friend]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Well that's to be expected...not so certain there is some vast profit being made after the numbers are crunched though.

I boggle my own mine when I add up just my expenses in showing my dogs...

I'd like to make the point (even though I haven't taken tax yet) that just because you claim expenses doesn't mean you make a profit. It is far more likely that a loss would still be incurred or you would break even. Claiming them as business expenses makes you financially better off than where you would have been, but does not mean that you will magically turn a profit.

You fill out the Schedule C form for this sort of thing. You're only allowed to take a loss for 3 or so years because the government says that businesses exist to make money. If you continue to have a loss after that, you have to claim the money as hobby income (whatever it may be), which will be taxed, and you are no longer allowed to claim any business expenses.

For example, you make $10,000 in revenue selling homemade jewelry. You have incurred $20,000 in business expenses. Thus, you have a $10,000 loss. After the 3rd year of this, you can no longer claim any business expenses. So, in your 4th year you would have to claim $10,000 of taxable hobby income from the revenue you generated, but you are not allowed to claim any business expenses.

[kalina82]

i started reading this thread because i thought it must have a lot of great information since it has so many replies. after reading all 19 pages I can say that some people have brought up some good points regarding litter numbers, who has them, and why are some justified and some not. Lots of double standards out there.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Furbaby Friend

I'd like to make the point (even though I haven't taken tax yet) that just because you claim expenses doesn't mean you make a profit. It is far more likely that a loss would still be incurred or you would break even. Claiming them as business expenses makes you financially better off than where you would have been, but does not mean that you will magically turn a profit.

You fill out the Schedule C form for this sort of thing. You're only allowed to take a loss for 3 or so years because the government says that businesses exist to make money. If you continue to have a loss after that, you have to claim the money as hobby income (whatever it may be), which will be taxed, and you are no longer allowed to claim any business expenses.

For example, you make $10,000 in revenue selling homemade jewelry. You have incurred $20,000 in business expenses. Thus, you have a $10,000 loss. After the 3rd year of this, you can no longer claim any business expenses. So, in your 4th year you would have to claim $10,000 of taxable hobby income from the revenue you generated, but you are not allowed to claim any business expenses.

Now there is another way to handle this.....Agriculturely ......

[Furbaby Friend]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Now there is another way to handle this.....Agriculturely ......

Oh true! Like ranch properties and such...

Yeah, I don't know much about that. That is beyond the realm of my limited VITA (volunteer income tax assistance) program knowledge.

Like I said, I haven't taken tax yet This is one way to handle small business income.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I guess then, my dogs do not live in my home, I live in THEIR Kennel.

Very true..I have always lived in my dogs home..if they are not happy..believe me no one is happy!