Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Ugh- I need to learn how to spell. My last post should have said "lies" and not "likes".

Ha ha, if you wouldn't have told me, I would never have noticed it!

[Wylie's Mom]

I haven't really read anything in this thread that makes me feel much more clear about the original concern and the volume of breeding . I'm actually feeling a little dazed over the contradictory info.

Does anyone understand the concern that for YEARS here at YT, it has been posted over and over and over that "Oh no! You should not breed that dog, it is out of standard!" --and-- "you should have that dog evaluated by a show breeder".

Well . Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines" -- firstly, this goes against so much of what has been said here at YT. Second, how would any breeder know their own out-of-standard breeding 'results' unless they've bred out-of-standard often enough for it to be predictable!? And if out-of-standard breedings can result in TO STANDARD, then I no longer understand why we hear at YT constantly "this dog is out of standard and shouldn't be bred".

Also, I don't understand so often hearing "well, a show breeder should evaluate all potential breeding prospects, but it is out of standard already - so, actually, it should not be bred or shown" -- bc now (after all these years) I'm reading the opposite right here in this thread.

And for years, we hear an exhibitor is only supposed to breed every couple years (for their own, specific program needs)...and now...that all changed with this thread. So, which is it? That exhibitors should only breed every couple of years? Or, that it's (quote) impossible to develop a champ line unless breeding 10 litters a year (end quote) (as someone specifically stated in this thread)?

I am genuinely confused by all the incongruities and contradictions, I really am. I would be happy if people have the answers and can explain it...I just really want to understand this. And, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone on this thread; rather, I appreciate the willingness for a discussion.

I'm seeing what I think are double standards on this thread. A person can have the *most* beautiful facilities on the planet, however, if they are churning out litters, they are *churning* out litters - no matter how many ways people try to re-frame it.

[Mardelin]

What is being discussed is a breeder stating in her answer to: Are the parents of your puppies within the size range of the stipulated Yorkshire Terrier Standard? The bitches may be larger Larger can be 7 1/2 pounds.

Keeping in mind this breeder has been breeding for 35 years, produced multiple Champions and has a well established line. This no fly by night breeder, she knows her lines and how to breed them. She knows every dog within her pedigrees backward and forward. Knows what her dogs will produce. She has completely emersed herself in the breed. Has been handling dogs since she was a child, and finished many dogs from various breeds. She is a vet tech. But, what is at the top of her credentials is her envolvement with the Canine Health Information Center and making it manditory for YTCA members to have their dogs tested.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

What is being discussed is a breeder stating in her answer to: Are the parents of your puppies within the size range of the stipulated Yorkshire Terrier Standard? The bitches may be larger Larger can be 7 1/2 pounds.

I realize that's what's being discussed, which is why I started this thread and asked more about it above. Maybe there is no answer to what I'm asking? Which is fine too, I just want to know.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I haven't really read anything in this thread that makes me feel much more clear about the original concern and the volume of breeding . I'm actually feeling a little dazed over the contradictory info.

Does anyone understand the concern that for YEARS here at YT, it has been posted over and over and over that "Oh no! You should not breed that dog, it is out of standard!" --and-- "you should have that dog evaluated by a show breeder".

Well . Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines" -- firstly, this goes against so much of what has been said here at YT. Second, how would any breeder know their own out-of-standard breeding 'results' unless they've bred out-of-standard often enough for it to be predictable!? And if out-of-standard breedings can result in TO STANDARD, then I no longer understand why we hear at YT constantly "this dog is out of standard and shouldn't be bred".

Also, I don't understand so often hearing "well, a show breeder should evaluate all potential breeding prospects, but it is out of standard already - so, actually, it should not be bred or shown" -- bc now (after all these years) I'm reading the opposite right here in this thread.

And for years, we hear an exhibitor is only supposed to breed every couple years (for their own, specific program needs)...and now...that all changed with this thread. So, which is it? That exhibitors should only breed every couple of years? Or, that it's (quote) impossible to develop a champ line unless breeding 10 litters a year (end quote) (as someone specifically stated in this thread)?

I am genuinely confused by all the incongruities and contradictions, I really am. I would be happy if people have the answers and can explain it...I just really want to understand this. And, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone on this thread; rather, I appreciate the willingness for a discussion.

I'm seeing what I think are double standards on this thread. A person can have the *most* beautiful facilities on the planet, however, if they are churning out litters, they are *churning* out litters - no matter how many ways people try to re-frame it.

Theoretically, a 7 pound 1 ounce female is over standard. I've been reading the breeding forum for years now, and the question often comes up, "Can I breed a bitch over 7 pounds?", the answers have come from many breeders here that I consider knowledgeable, and the answers are complex, and involve taking many things into the equation. I thought I could present the short answer with what are you breeding To, or what is the goal? In other words, if the breeder were breeding to create larger dogs, this would be considered breeding for a fault; she's isn't doing that. Can you understand the difference?

The dog that is considered to be the Father of the Breed, Huddersfield Ben was over 13 pounds, but consistently threw pups under 7lbs, which enabled the Yorkshire terrier to enter the toy class. A prize-winning dog should never be breed again, if it produces dogs way out of standard, and yes, there is a learning process. That's why I always tell YT members you don't buy from a good breeder because you want a show dog, or because you need status, you buy because you believe in the breeding program and what they are doing. You have to ask your self what is the GOAL of this breeder? Do you know how easily it would have been for the breeder in question to have lied, and just answered "No", she knows enough about breeding to know this isn't a bad thing.

[Wylie's Mom]

I'm getting the feeling there may not be an answer to the inconsistencies I'm wondering about. I can live with that, it just makes me very uncomfortable....which is my problem, honestly.

[Mardelin]

I kinow this breeder on a personal level and know of her breeding program, and since the website where the info on the breeder was gleaned was established in the early nineties......has scaled down her breeding program.

As stated by another poster maybe it would better to ask the person directly.

I think I did answer your question; this breeder knows her lines but, more importantly knows how to breed her lines, what every dog within those lines has produced.

It's a bit different than someone buying two dogs, that know nothing about the dogs lines and breeding....that's where the unknown comes in....health, temperement issues and of course those yorkies that don't look like yorkies.

Just a little additional info on this person. Due to a physical afflication her parents started her in handling for her self esteem as well as physical therapy.

[Wylie's Mom]

Mary, in my post above (#167), I'm not asking about anyone specific. I'm asking about all the incongruities with respect to what's been said here (for years) vs. what is now being said by some of the same people in this thread.

Like I said, it's makes me very uncomfortable - but I will give it more thought.

Just to clarify, I have not once mentioned anyone's name during this thread; rather, it was you who PMd me and asked me specifically who I was talking about, which I shared with you in confidence.

[OwnedByJezebel]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines"

I'm not a breeder, so breeders please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that all purebred dogs have faults, even the champions. It is just a question of how many faults they have and which ones. So if you limit breeding to only those dogs that meet the standard perfectly, you will never have any dogs that are good enough to breed.

A female that is slightly large, and out of standard in that respect, might have some really outstanding traits that should be passed on to her progeny, and might be very consistent in producing pups that DO meet the size standard, especially when paired with the appropriate male. It is a matter of trying to combine the right pair so that, hopefully, their offspring will have all of the strengths of the dam and sire, and the pups will inherit the best genes and traits of each. Successive generations and very selective breeding can, if carefully chosen, eliminate or decrease the incidence of a fault in future offspring, thereby improving the breed.

In figuring out how to choose the right pair to correct faults ..... well that is way over my head.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I'm getting the feeling there may not be an answer to the inconsistencies I'm wondering about. I can live with that, it just makes me very uncomfortable....which is my problem, honestly.

I'm totally confused by the inconsistencies you are seeing. I think some people believe 5-10 litters a year is WAY TOO MUCH like you do, and others think 1-2 litters in lifetime is WAY TOO MUCH for some breeders, like I do, it depends on the breeder in question.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I haven't really read anything in this thread that makes me feel much more clear about the original concern and the volume of breeding . I'm actually feeling a little dazed over the contradictory info.

Does anyone understand the concern that for YEARS here at YT, it has been posted over and over and over that "Oh no! You should not breed that dog, it is out of standard!" --and-- "you should have that dog evaluated by a show breeder".

Well . Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines" -- firstly, this goes against so much of what has been said here at YT. Second, how would any breeder know their own out-of-standard breeding 'results' unless they've bred out-of-standard often enough for it to be predictable!? And if out-of-standard breedings can result in TO STANDARD, then I no longer understand why we hear at YT constantly "this dog is out of standard and shouldn't be bred".

Also, I don't understand so often hearing "well, a show breeder should evaluate all potential breeding prospects, but it is out of standard already - so, actually, it should not be bred or shown" -- bc now (after all these years) I'm reading the opposite right here in this thread.

And for years, we hear an exhibitor is only supposed to breed every couple years (for their own, specific program needs)...and now...that all changed with this thread. So, which is it? That exhibitors should only breed every couple of years? Or, that it's (quote) impossible to develop a champ line unless breeding 10 litters a year (end quote) (as someone specifically stated in this thread)?

I am genuinely confused by all the incongruities and contradictions, I really am. I would be happy if people have the answers and can explain it...I just really want to understand this. And, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone on this thread; rather, I appreciate the willingness for a discussion.

I'm seeing what I think are double standards on this thread. A person can have the *most* beautiful facilities on the planet, however, if they are churning out litters, they are *churning* out litters - no matter how many ways people try to re-frame it.

First, I understand your confusion....but you can not breed "out of standard" to standard if know your lines...might get away with it once in awhile, but cream rises to the top.
AND...what "out of standard fault are we talking about? A bitch that runs too light or a poorly structured bitch, back and front...BIG difference. No Yorkie is perfect, there will always be faults...and you breed to correct these faults from Yorkies with a long line of winners behind them and ones with easier to corrected faults..color is very easy to correct..structure is not...try to reduce the ear size on a Yorkie with huge easty/westy ears and you will grow old doing so...remove that Yorkie from your program...remove bad bites, poor temperament...but if the eye is a bit too round or too big, the tail set is a bit low, pigment could be darker, muzzle a touch too short or long..IMO it would be a mistake to remove these dogs...breed to a terrific stud known to correct these problems.

I do not know who told you that a good breeder only breeds every couple of years...this is simply not true. It may take 4 litters in one year to produce the 2 or 3 champions a breeder will want to show for the next 2 yrs...I have a friend with a litter from a super breeding...she has 3 small girls..one might make 5 pounds, but 2 will stay under 4...she is getting ready to breed another litter in hopes of a male to show...if she is smart I think she should go for two more this year to ensure several potentials..that is what most do...as I recall Parkside finished 10 one year...how many litters do you think that took?..and is it wrong to produce champions to ensure the continuance of the breed..I do not think so...and where do nice pets come from...I just wish the good breeders could supply enough to put the miller out of business.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Mary, in my post above (#167), I'm not asking about anyone specific. I'm asking about all the incongruities with respect to what's been said here (for years) vs. what is now being said by some of the same people in this thread.

Like I said, it's makes me very uncomfortable - but I will give it more thought.

Just to clarify, I have not once mentioned anyone's name during this thread; rather, it was you who PMd me and asked me specifically who I was talking about, which I shared with you in confidence.

Anne,

There is no simple answer to the layman. Believe me I couldn't have understood it until I emersed myself in the breed, worked with my mentor(s), studied pedigrees, genetics (and of course keeping in mind that this breed is one of the most difficult breeds to breed and as judges say one of the most difficult to judge) and began my own breeding program. To this day I still come up with breeding questions and pose them to the more knowledgable......they usually set me straight.

As my mentor told me in the beginning; this is a very challenging breed, so if you don't have patience and have a low frustration level......don't embark on the journey.


By the way I mentioned no names either.

[gemy]

Ann there is no simple way as Mary said. But look up breeding co -efficients and charts that attempt to evaluate a potential breeding pair. There are a lot of variables into this "scientific" approach to selecting the sire/dam.

I don't know the threads you were referring to, in terms of "out" of standard and don't breed advice. But I will merely put out there is out of standard and really out of standard.

Let's say for eg we have a new member called Hopeful. She asks if she should breed her bitch. She supplies sideline, front, and rear pics of her hopeful She says that her bitch has been ddx'd with LP 1 in one knee. Oh and also she is 9 lbs.

So we look at the pics, we see a coat color very light, a head that is coarse, a front that is narrow, with a rear that is wide, and what looks like a dip in the topline.

So the advice would conceivably be; your bitch is off standard, please don't breed her

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by gemy

Ann there is no simple way as Mary said. But look up breeding co -efficients and charts that attempt to evaluate a potential breeding pair. There are a lot of variables into this "scientific" approach to selecting the sire/dam.

I don't know the threads you were referring to, in terms of "out" of standard and don't breed advice. But I will merely put out there is out of standard and really out of standard.

Let's say for eg we have a new member called Hopeful. She asks if she should breed her bitch. She supplies sideline, front, and rear pics of her hopeful She says that her bitch has been ddx'd with LP 1 in one knee. Oh and also she is 9 lbs.

So we look at the pics, we see a coat color very light, a head that is coarse, a front that is narrow, with a rear that is wide, and what looks like a dip in the topline.

So the advice would conceivably be; your bitch is off standard, please don't breed her

On the other hand, lets say a breeder has a well respected champion sired bitch of good color, coat, structure and temperament..but she 8 pounds..would you breed her or recommend a breeding...?
I would, I quite frankly you would be hard pressed to find breeders who would not ...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

On the other hand, lets say a breeder has a well respected champion sired bitch of good color, coat, structure and temperament..but she 8 pounds..would you breed her or recommend a breeding...?
I would, I quite frankly you would be hard pressed to find breeders who would not ...

I think you posted something similar to this in the breeding forum a couple of years ago in even more detail. Knowing the rules is great, but knowing all the exceptions to the rules is even better, and of course we have to understand the rules before we can break them.


I'm hoping some of you experienced breeders can explain to the average puppy buyer, what the difference is between a DQ and a fault.