Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[BFar]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

.I just wish the good breeders could supply enough to put the miller out of business.

[BFar]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

First off, in rescue you do not have a pedigree turned over with a dog at a shelter so there would be no way to know what is in their lines. It's not like you go to the local shelter, they hand you a dog and their pedigree. From what I have read on this forum isn't that called backdoor breeding? I've read before about how this can occur and hen a breeder will start tossing big names around in their advertising. Maybe someone else can help clarify better than I can.

Well mine will be microchipped. I am hoping and waiting for some kind of GPS technology to be developed.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think you posted something similar to this in the breeding forum a couple of years ago in even more detail. Knowing the rules is great, but knowing all the exceptions to the rules is even better, and of course we have to understand the rules before we can break them.


I'm hoping some of you experienced breeders can explain to the average puppy buyer, what the difference is between a DQ and a fault.

I would love to know the difference.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Furbaby Friend

This is really the main point of good breeders continuing to breed despite the overload I think. Imagine if they just stopped and left all the "pet supply" (I know that sounds crud, but can't think of another way to say it... please take it as I mean it and not how it sounds) to the mills and BYB because there were too many pups... the breed would be unrecognizable after a short time . The reputable breeders producing 24 puppies or whatever in whatever time isn't the problem, it is those that don't give a flying flip about anything except the money that's the problem!

This is why I don't understand those who breeded to "better the breed" not selling to non show breeders.

I think, if you "really" want to better the breed, as a whole, and not just your own breeding stock, You would want to put quality breeders into as many kennels as possible.

Do the same mentoring and educating as you do with those who want to show, but without the show. Talk to those whom you want to lable as bybs and you might find that many of them do want to learn. they want better dogs, they want to know how to evaluate a puppy. It is a hobby and they want to learn all that they can and be as good as they can be.

You are never going to get rid of the puppy mills, they are a lost cause until the government finally decides to outlaw them.

But with more "quality" puppies out there, at reasonable prices, the puppy mills would have less customers.

I'm not saying sell to just anyone, I'm just saying don't rule out everyone who is not able to or doesn't care to show.

We already kniow that there are dogs out there that recieve championships, that don't deserve them. Many, not even as nice of dogs as many so called bybs are breeding.

OK get out your whips and start beating me.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by BFar

Well mine will be microchipped. I am hoping and waiting for some kind of GPS technology to be developed.

A microchip or GPS will not stop an unethical breeder from using your dogs to breed. There is always a way around a registry and these types of breeders would skip the AKC registry if it meant a profit in their pocket.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I would love to know the difference.

A DQ (disquaification) is a Major fault. When a dog has been charged with a DQ it is removed from the ring. Faults, all dogs have them, some can be corrected easier than others with breeding correctly.

There is only one Disqualification within the Yorkshire Standard.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

A DQ (disquaification) is a Major fault. When a dog has been charged with a DQ it is removed from the ring. Faults, all dogs have them, some can be corrected easier than others with breeding correctly.

There is only one Disqualification within the Yorkshire Standard.

Color?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I've read through all of this, and I think the number ten or even five stands out because of what we've read here on YT by some about what makes someone a good breeder or what constitutes a show breeder. I may be incorrect, but I don't think those that are talking about the 23 dogs that don't make it to championship, are questioning the worth of those dogs. When I was looking for my dogs, I wasn't important to me to have a show quality dog , yet I looked for someone who I thought was breeding for the health and welfare of the pups. I did and still do want to have a dog that is healthy, has an excellent temperament, the Yorkie spunk and heart, and is a good, solid representation of the breed. If a breeder is doing health testing, evaluating their breeding stock, very carefully placing their pups into loving homes, and trying to breed to produce quality dogs, that's what is important to me, even to supply the pet market. They also need to spend good quality time to care for the needs of the pups, properly socialize them, and provide excellent vet care. I know there is an overpopulation problem, but if there aren't people to provide quality dogs to the pet market, won't more people turn to bybs and puppymills? I prefer to focus more on the ethics, knowledge, love, and passion of the breeder rather than the number of litters a year if all the other factors are carefully considered. I agree that the number can raise red flags, and it definitely should be looked into, but it is one of many factors that should be considered.

Those are my thoughts exactly. If you want to "better the breed" You need to get better dogs to the breeders. The term BYB is subjective

[gemy]

Actually a DQ is different to a Major Fault. There are Minor Faults, Major Faults and Disqualified.

Starting from the beginning each National Breed Club submits their Club approved standard for approval to for example AKC or CKC for approval. Within this standard are listed in order of importance DQ's, Major and Minor Faults. Once this standard is approved/accepted by AKC/CKC then the judges judge to the standard.

A DQ is the worst. It means the dog is expelled from the ring for judging, and 2 DQ's or more DQ's this may differ from Nation to Nation, also means the dog can never been shown again under their auspices.

In essence if the judge notices this DQ there is no option for the judge but to DQ. All dogs can be expelled or DQ'd from the ring for biting the judge, fighting with dogs, or very aggressive and uncontrolled behaviour

Major Faults are elaborated in each standard. Generally speaking a dog might win a breed with a Major Fault if everything else is excellent and above. Dependent upon the breed major faults could include, too tall, too short, too long, furnishings very poor, color too light, color too dark, missing teethk too aggressive, too timid, etc

Minor Faults are again elaborated in each standard.

Now the judge also has an option to excuse a dog from the ring. Most common examples would be if a dog is noticeably limping in the ring. |Sometimes a dog will be excused from the ring if they are so submissive they will not stand/permit examination by the judge.

Hope this clarifies for you

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

First, I understand your confusion....but you can not breed "out of standard" to standard if know your lines...might get away with it once in awhile, but cream rises to the top.
AND...what "out of standard fault are we talking about? A bitch that runs too light or a poorly structured bitch, back and front...BIG difference. No Yorkie is perfect, there will always be faults...and you breed to correct these faults from Yorkies with a long line of winners behind them and ones with easier to corrected faults..color is very easy to correct..structure is not...try to reduce the ear size on a Yorkie with huge easty/westy ears and you will grow old doing so...remove that Yorkie from your program...remove bad bites, poor temperament...but if the eye is a bit too round or too big, the tail set is a bit low, pigment could be darker, muzzle a touch too short or long..IMO it would be a mistake to remove these dogs...breed to a terrific stud known to correct these problems.

I do not know who told you that a good breeder only breeds every couple of years...this is simply not true. It may take 4 litters in one year to produce the 2 or 3 champions a breeder will want to show for the next 2 yrs...I have a friend with a litter from a super breeding...she has 3 small girls..one might make 5 pounds, but 2 will stay under 4...she is getting ready to breed another litter in hopes of a male to show...if she is smart I think she should go for two more this year to ensure several potentials..that is what most do...as I recall Parkside finished 10 one year...how many litters do you think that took?..and is it wrong to produce champions to ensure the continuance of the breed..I do not think so...and where do nice pets come from...I just wish the good breeders could supply enough to put the miller out of business.

This is helpful in increasing my understanding, thank you .

(some of the show breeders who are only breeding every couple of years have mentioned this for quite a few years, and I think (?) even on this thread. It's not that I'm opposed to this, to the contrary . It's just that the incongruity btwn doing that (which I prefer much more, for my own reasons) and breeding 10 litters a year was the motivation behind my original post...and behind my confusion..and concerns me, given my previous impression.)

Originally Posted by gemy

Ann there is no simple way as Mary said. But look up breeding co -efficients and charts that attempt to evaluate a potential breeding pair. There are a lot of variables into this "scientific" approach to selecting the sire/dam.

I don't know the threads you were referring to, in terms of "out" of standard and don't breed advice. But I will merely put out there is out of standard and really out of standard.

Let's say for eg we have a new member called Hopeful. She asks if she should breed her bitch. She supplies sideline, front, and rear pics of her hopeful She says that her bitch has been ddx'd with LP 1 in one knee. Oh and also she is 9 lbs.

So we look at the pics, we see a coat color very light, a head that is coarse, a front that is narrow, with a rear that is wide, and what looks like a dip in the topline.

So the advice would conceivably be; your bitch is off standard, please don't breed her

Helpful as well, thank you!

[Brooklynn]

you know what I'd like to see? I'd love for everyone that has questions about all this is to do this.....go to dog shows, talk to breeders, learn the breed, learn the standard, learn everything you need to learn about showing/breeding/genetics and what is all involved into making a good representation of the breed. It doesn't cost much to go watch, learn, talk, listen, help the exhibitors. You don't have to show but I would love to challenge those that do not understand what is all involved is get involved by attending dog shows, talk to the breeders, help the exhibitors in anyway you can, LEARN the passion that we share with this wonderful breed and then maybe you can understand somewhat what it's all about...again it doesn't cost much to learn this way. YOU don't have to show to gain knowledge and seek and educate yourself...

Donna

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by gemy

Actually a DQ is different to a Major Fault. There are Minor Faults, Major Faults and Disqualified.

Starting from the beginning each National Breed Club submits their Club approved standard for approval to for example AKC or CKC for approval. Within this standard are listed in order of importance DQ's, Major and Minor Faults. Once this standard is approved/accepted by AKC/CKC then the judges judge to the standard.

A DQ is the worst. It means the dog is expelled from the ring for judging, and 2 DQ's or more DQ's this may differ from Nation to Nation, also means the dog can never been shown again under their auspices.

In essence if the judge notices this DQ there is no option for the judge but to DQ. All dogs can be expelled or DQ'd from the ring for biting the judge, fighting with dogs, or very aggressive and uncontrolled behaviour

Major Faults are elaborated in each standard. Generally speaking a dog might win a breed with a Major Fault if everything else is excellent and above. Dependent upon the breed major faults could include, too tall, too short, too long, furnishings very poor, color too light, color too dark, missing teethk too aggressive, too timid, etc

Minor Faults are again elaborated in each standard.

Now the judge also has an option to excuse a dog from the ring. Most common examples would be if a dog is noticeably limping in the ring. |Sometimes a dog will be excused from the ring if they are so submissive they will not stand/permit examination by the judge.

Hope this clarifies for you

Right, There are Disqualifications that encompass all breeds in the showing arena........
Undescended Testicles.....lameness, agressiveness. Instant disqualification and complete basnishment from the showing arena.....If a dog exhibits agressive behavior and/or bites a judge.

[Brooklynn]

BTW...I am a low volume breeder and only breed for my own show dog because I have to work to make a living and couldn't give my full undivided attention if I had litters all the time. It's not "my" goal to become top breeder but to breed for my own show dogs that are healthy, the best representation of the breed as I can ( knowing that there is "no" perfect dog ) but strive for the best I can. I select what will fit best together and breed as close to the standard as I can and improve on what needs to be improved with "health" being of the most important above all else. I've always stated, I prefer the show ring vs. the whelping box

Donna

[Wylie's Mom]

Gail - very helpful post also in #189.

Let me check if I'm absorbing it. So, a dog could potentially be shown even if they have a minor or major fault...depending upon the rest of their qualities. Also, a dog *might* be bred with a fault if a breeder is trying to correct/adjust their line, and the fault may help do this. (ie, a larger size may help bring up weights, if needed)

Is this what some are saying (very simply put, that is)? Sorta?

Donna, I appreciate what you're saying....and this is why I ask questions of all sorts of breeders (not just one type). YT is mostly about learning for me. Not everyone can attend dog shows. That's why it's beneficial and educational to try to learn here, if that's the extent of what one is able to do. I know I don't have to show to learn, that's why I'm asking questions.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

Color?

As with all purebred dogs recognized by the American Kennel Club, there
is an approved Breed Standard for Yorkshire Terriers. This standard of
perfection is a written description of how the ideal Yorkshire Terrier should
look. All responsible breeders strive to produce dogs that conform to this
Breed Standard. Yorkshire Terriers with major deviations from that Standard
in appearance should not be bred.

General Appearance
.
That of a long-haired toy terrier whose blue and tan coat is parted on the face and from the base of the skull to the end of the tail and hangs evenly and quite straight down each side of body. The body is neat, compact and well proportioned. The dog's high head carriage and confident manner should give the appearance of vigor and self importance.

Head

Small and rather flat on top, the skull not too prominent or round, the muzzle not too long, with the bite neither undershot nor overshot and teeth sound. Either scissors bite or level bite is acceptable. The nose is black. Eyes are medium in size and not too prominent; dark in color and sparkling with a sharp, intelligent expression. Eye rims are dark. Ears are small, V-shaped, carried erect and set not too far apart.

Body
Well proportioned and very compact. The back is rather short, the back line level, with height at shoulder the same as at the rump.

Legs and Feet

Forelegs should be straight, elbows neither in nor out. Hind legs straight when viewed from behind, but stifles are moderately bent when viewed from the sides. Feet are round with black toenails. Dew claws, if any, are generally removed from the hind legs. Dew claws on the forelegs may be removed.

Tail

Docked to a medium length and carried slightly higher than the level of the back.

Coat

Quality, texture and quantity of coat are of prime importance. Hair is glossy, fine and silky in texture. Coat on the body is moderately long and perfectly straight (not wavy). It may be trimmed to floor length to give ease of movement and a neater appearance, if desired. The fall on the head is long, tied with one bow in center of head or parted in the middle and tied with two bows. Hair on muzzle is very long. Hair should be trimmed short on tips of ears and may be trimmed on feet to give them a neat appearance.

Colors

Puppies are born black and tan and are normally darker in body color, showing an intermingling of black hair in the tan until they are matured. Color of hair on body and richness of tan on head and legs are of prime importance in adult dogs, to which the following color requirements apply: BLUE: Is a dark steel blue, not a silver blue and not mingled with fawn, bronzy or black hairs. TAN: All tan hair is darker at the roots than in the middle, shading to still lighter tan at the tips. There should be no sooty or black hair intermingled with any of the tan.

Color on Body

The blue extends over the body from back of neck to root of tail. Hair on tail is a darker blue, especially at end of tail.

Head fall

A rich golden tan, deeper in color at sides of head, at ear roots and on the muzzle, with ears a deep rich tan. Tan color should not extend down on back of neck.

Chest and Legs

A bright, rich tan, not extending above the elbow on the forelegs nor above the stifle on the hind legs.

Weight

Must not exceed seven pounds.

Disqualification

Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as described above. Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension.
Approved July 10, 2007
Effective Oct. 1, 2007

Disqualification Directive from the Parent Club

TO: AKC Judges, AKC Judging Operations
FROM: Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Board of Directors
DATE: September 26, 2007

SUBJECT: Clarification of the Yorkshire Terrier DQ to be initiated on
October 1, 2007

The Disqualification reads as follows:
Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as
described above.
Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest
that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension.

DIRECTIVE;
The new Disqualification is an ADDITION to the Yorkshire Terrier
Breed Standard. It is there to disqualify Yorkshire Terriers with
colors OTHER THAN those as described in our Breed Standard. The
American Kennel Club is registering parti-colors, solid colors, and
chocolate and tan dogs as Yorkshire Terriers even though they do not
meet our Breed Standard as written. AKC will not deny registration on
color alone. These dogs have been shown at AKC matches and non-AKC
events. Immature dogs not having a totally clear tan or immature dogs
that are not yet totally blue are acceptable under our Breed Standard
and should NOT be disqualified. To do so would be a misinterpretation
of the Disqualification AND of the Breed Standard.

The Yorkshire Terrier whose coat is of prime importance has a slow
metamorphosis from the black and tan puppy to the blue and tan adult.
Some of these dogs take three or more years for their coat to mature;
therefore our YTCA Members chose NOT to specify an age for color
maturity. Only dogs of solid color, unusual combination of colors,
and parti-colors should be disqualified.

In summary:

DISQUALIFY
„X Solid color dogs such as a solid color gold or solid color chocolate
„X A chocolate and tan dog or other unusual combination of colors
„X A white dog with black and tan markings (parti-color)
.
DO NOT DISQUALIFY
„X Puppies, Class dogs and young Champions whose tan has not yet
totally cleared. This is typically seen around the head area where
thumb prints may exist. Young Puppies may still have an intermingling
of black hair in the tan.
„X Puppies and young adults whose black body coat has not yet totally
turned to blue.
„X A dog that has a small white spot not to exceed 1 inch on the fore-
chest.

A Blueprint or Guide (Illustrated Discussion) as to what the Parent
Club considers to be the correct Yorkshire Terrier can be obtained by
contacting the club secretary. owen@kvnet.org