Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Parkside lives in PR...anyone seen her kennel?
I recall a picture of a 3 story house..and a picture of her back garden...

I've not been to her house, although I know people that have stayed there. Never heard anything negative. What they've said is that she has/had terrific kennel help. I also understand she is cut way back and breeding minimally if at all. And from her lips to my ears, purchased a condo in the city to eliminate her husbands commute time. They spend the week in the city and the weekends in their country home.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

No offense at all, Donna.

But here comes the question: If great show breeders are primarily concerned with preserving the breed, are they doing that by breeding in mass? Presumably, they are only keeping the dogs that meet their showing goals. The rest are placed in homes. Now, presumably again, those dogs are placed on spay and neuter contracts because those dogs weren't fit for showing and therefore, not fit for breeding. So how is that improving the breed if the lineage stops there? Or are they selling these dogs to other breeders as "good enough" to breed? And if these "good enough" dogs are breeding, how are they controlling the progeny to make sure the lines stay strong? Limited registrations haven’t helped; the unscrupulous breeder just goes and registers with an alternate registry and keeps going.

I'm going to pull a number out of the air here; since I can't seem to find a good answer to what percentage of pups from a show breeder are show- worthy. If 1 out of every 25 pups is championable (is that a word?) , what about the other 24? Granted, it's more likely that these pups are well vetted and less likely to have health problems than the mill dogs, but that's still 24 dogs brought in to an already over populated pet world. I'm not saying that these high volume show breeders are the cause of the overpopulation problem, but surely they are adding to it every bit as much as the byb'er.



There is a huge difference between a dog that chooses to go in to a cage on its own, and one that is forced to stay in a cage/crate/xpen/kennel because it’s owner is too busy or has too many dogs to properly supervise it. I also won’t disagree that many breeders spend more one on one time than some many pet owners. But I don’t care how many kennel helpers you can afford to pay; the dog still loses out on the day to day bonding and interaction that is the reason this species, above all others, is so loved when it’s kenneled versus raised in a good home situation. So if it’s bad for the owner to do it, why is it ok for the breeder? If they truly love the dogs, why deprive them of something it needs to reach it’s full potential? It just seems hypocritical that these same breeders would point fingers at the mills and BYB’ers and say they are bad for the way they treat their dogs, while doing essentially the same thing themselves, just in better conditions.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a high volume show breeder producing more dogs isn’t going to put the BYB’er or mills out of business. It’s not going to improve the overall health of the breed nor preserve the traits of the Yorkie as long as everyone is over breeding. I just see a lot of excusing A,B and C because someone does X,Y and Z.

ETA: Not sure why Brooklyn's quote came out so strange. I've been having lots of issues with quoting lately

I can assure you that I'm not making excuses for anyone, if I did not believe that some purebred breeders actually loved the breed as a whole as much as I do, and not just their own dogs, I would not buy a purebred. Do breeders and their dogs make sacrifices for the good of the breed? Yes, I believe the do. If you do not believe in showing, I do not understand how you can buy a purebred dog, for without show breeders who breed to standard, the purebred yorkie would look undistinguishable from other dogs in 50 years. Some of these bigger kennels are probably not even selling to the pet buyer, but they are probably selling to a small breeder who has proven herself to someone and has shown she won't be breeding for profit. So many small breeder say, nobody will sell me a good dog, but they have never taken the time to prove to someone, they are doing it for the right reason, and not just to earn pocket change. Most of the breeders I know, have spent way more on their dogs than they have ever earned.

[Breezeaway]

I never said you recommended them as breeders, Nancy, I said, I remember you saying you liked their Kennels. You then said you never said it, making me look like I just made it up.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I never said you recommended them as breeders, Nancy, I said, I remember you saying you liked their Kennels. You then said you never said it, making me look like I just made it up.

Your statement,

Seems like I remember how much you liked Lake Buena Vista's kennels.
How many litters do you think they raise a year in this huge kennel.

could be misintrpeted by some to think I like Lake Buena Vista's Kennels or approve of them. I have no idea about them, and do not understand why you would even post that statement in this thread.

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Parkside lives in PR...anyone seen her kennel?
I recall a picture of a 3 story house..and a picture of her back garden...

Maria Cordona has fantastic dogs. Dont know much about her Kennels or home. I can tell you its not made from wood, probably concrete and marble with open windows.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I can assure you that I'm not making excuses for anyone, if I did not believe that some purebred breeders actually loved the breed as a whole as much as I do, and not just their own dogs, I would not buy a purebred. Do breeders and their dogs make sacrifices for the good of the breed? Yes, I believe the do. If you do not believe in showing, I do not understand how you can buy a purebred dog, for without show breeders who breed to standard, the purebred yorkie would look undistinguishable from other dogs in 50 years. Some of these bigger kennels are probably not even selling to the pet buyer, but they are probably selling to a small breeder who has proven herself to someone and has shown she won't be breeding for profit. So many small breeder say, nobody will sell me a good dog, but they have never taken the time to prove to someone, they are doing it for the right reason, and not just to earn pocket change. Most of the breeders I know, have spent way more on their dogs than they have ever earned.

I didn't say I didn't believe in showing or breeding to standard. Just questioning how one can justify the mass breeding by some show breeders as being good for Yorkies in general. The bad breeders are getting their hands on dogs from somewhere, and I don't think they are getting them exclusively from other bad breeders. Since so many of them are claiming champion lines (even though most are distant in their pedigrees), they obviously came from the show breeders to begin with. The lines aren't being controlled tightly enough, IMO.

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

[gardenyorkies]

Please remember when talking about how many litters breeders are having in a year that there is a big difference between breeding 6 Yorkie litters a year and 6 large breed litters a year...The difference can be 6 puppies a year to 60 puppies a year...

Also a good breeder will take responsibility for the puppies they have populated the world with by requiring puppy owners to return dogs back to the breeder for any reason their pet may need rehomed..When was the last time the puppymillers, byb's , large corporations did this?...So instead of putting the responsible breeder on the same level as the rest help educate the puppy buyer to stay away from the pet stores, byb's etc...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I didn't say I didn't believe in showing or breeding to standard. Just questioning how one can justify the mass breeding by some show breeders as being good for Yorkies in general. The bad breeders are getting their hands on dogs from somewhere, and I don't think they are getting them exclusively from other bad breeders. Since so many of them are claiming champion lines (even though most are distant in their pedigrees), they obviously came from the show breeders to begin with. The lines aren't being controlled tightly enough, IMO.

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

I can agree with this statement, but then again, I don't even think all commercial breeders are equal. Can you breed right and still make a profit? I think it must be very hard unless you charge way more than show breeders are charging. Their prices are often less than breeders who sell on YT.


Most bad breeders get their pets from other bad breeders, or those breeders they feel "comfortable" with. I do think we always have to remember the "goal." Is it to make money, is it to win fame? These are not the proper goals. A good breeder needs to be around other good breeders who can keep them in check.

[BFar]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

...So instead of putting the responsible breeder on the same level as the rest help educate the puppy buyer to stay away from the pet stores, byb's etc...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

I have read through this whole thread and I am still sitting here with the same feelings that I began with. Quite honestly, I don't care what ribbon and/or status a dog achieves...I care about their spirit....their happiness that they will experience in their short lives. I don't care how "nice", "clean", "high-tech" a kennel is or how many "nannies" they have hired. Do you think that these dogs would chose this life for themselves....if that had a choice, that is. My local homeless animal shelter is all of this mentioned (new, nice, clean, high-tech, good vet care) but these dogs beg to get out of there and do you think that the "show Yorkies" think that their situation is any better? Difference between the two is that at least the shelter dogs are not being bred.

I know that I wouldn't like it if I were them and if you say that you feel they are happy, then try trading places with them for awhile....you in the kennel, them on a comfy couch.

[jencar98]

You have to walk in a show breeder's shoes to realize the hard work, long hours.......

Good breeders dogs don't end up in rescues........

Show breeders will always take their dogs back.......

We have to preserve the breed......

What do these type statements have to do with whether or not someone is wrong for breeding in high volumes? They all sound like justification statements and is there any really good justification for high volume breeding?

How many show breeders are needed to preserve a breed?

What have you, individually, specifically, as a show breeder done to improve/better the breed? What improvements need to be made?

I've yet to have anyone satisfactorily explain how they as a breeder are improving or bettering this breed and at the same time preserving this breed? If you want to preserve something, that is the act of leaving it as it is, unchanged. Improving/bettering is an act of change....just what is it show breeders are trying to change, when the are also preserving the breed

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

It's time people start questioning and I appreciate that you are!

[manolos mom]

Jen, what did you pay for your Parti? I know a few Show Breeders that dont charge half the price of a Parti. Qualifications, you must finish the dog. Please attend a dog show and talk to the Breeders. Most are A+ breeders, that are VERY choosy when finding good homes. Lissette

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

The word "kennel" is not a dirty word...dictionary says it is a place where dogs are housed, bred, trained or boarded..so I would say anyone here who has a dog, breeds it, trains it not to pee on the floor, provides a food and shelter..HAS A KENNEL.AKC refers to a breeders prefix..as a Kennel prefix..they do not care if you have 1 or 50, 500...

The biggest mistake a novice breeder makes is saying they breed for health and temperment..a good pet for families. It is not enough...good pets come from shelters of all types...why breed more. The only reason to ever, ever breed a purebred litter of puppies to follow the standard as best as possible, present the show quality to be judged by your peers..do not harm to the breed and strive to improve, not destroy the breed.

Believe it or not this can be done on a very small basis in your home or in a large kennel...
AND one more point if I may...people complain show people are snobbish, won't converse at shows, standoffish...it is the same as going up to a professional athlete at a game and asking questions...it may all look like fun and games, but it is dead serious...without show breeders the Yorkie disappears or what we know as a Yorkie disappears. Are exhibtors the only ones who can produce a quality litter?..NO, but without close ties and involvement you are fooling yourself.

I guess then, my dogs do not live in my home, I live in THEIR Kennel.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

Jen, what did you pay for your Parti? I know a few Show Breeders that dont charge half the price of a Parti. Qualifications, you must finish the dog. Please attend a dog show and talk to the Breeders. Most are A+ breeders, that are VERY choosy when finding good homes. Lissette

What does the price of her parti have to do with this conversation?
How much did you pay for your show dog?