how young is too young to test for liver shunt??

[lulababy]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Yippeee!!!!!

I just read about your other dog having a respiratory infection. I hate to think of poor Bam Bam catching it and having to battle that, too. Poor little guy has been through so much already.

oh god, I hope he doesnt catch whatever it is! that would be horrible!!

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by bjh

Why wouldn't you do a blood panel on a sick dog?????That is what every vet I know does as a first step. A full blood panel can tell a doctor a lot. Read here: CFYTC Health & Grooming - Liver Shunt

It is not advisable to do a BAT test on a small young puppy. A blood panel will let you know if the liver is compromised. If the liver is compromised you would want to put the puppy immediately on a liver cleansing diet and go from there. The most important thing is to get the puppy stable and that can be done with proper diet and medications then start looking at your different options.

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by hasrv4fun

Also , i want to say that i have offered to drive the 400 miles to her and bring Bam Bam home until both he and her are over the medical issues they seem to be having. I have not been able to convince her that would be in his best interest.

Wouldn't taking him back home AGAIN cause him more stress??? Right now I feel he needs to stay in 1 place and settle in. I am a Breeder also and know how stressful any move on any Yorkie can be. I would leave him there with her, I feel she is trying to care for him and maybe just needs some advice as she hasn't been through this before. Lee

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by bjh

The puppy did not die directly from the BAT test but indirectly. The large amount of blood drawn for the BAT test weakened the immune system of the puppy and that lead to the crypotosporidium. Had the owner not followed bad advise stating that it is okay to BAT test a 12 week old puppy then I feel the puppy would still be alive. Most all the experts say it is best to wait until a puppy is close to 6 months old before doing a BAT test. Of course, if you have a sick puppy you have to act immediately and that is when you pray your vet knows what he is doing.

I feel the way you feel Barbara and your know your advise and wisdom I value!

I'm with You and Rose on this one!!! I won't allow NO BAT testing done on ANY of my puppies after seeing what Rose went through with Teaser!! NO way!!! Unless it is a down right and I mean down right Emergency!!!

I don't care what anyone says about me as a Breeder for not doing this!!! I will not risk any of my puppies lives over other peoples OPO of good and bad Breeders for testing or not testing...That was just heart breaking for Rose.

I'm also thinking if any of ours ever have them done for them to take it out of their legs...NOT Juggler Vain...To to dangerous of a spot for blood to be drawn to me.

Anyone here or any where can think what they want of me for me doing this with our puppies but I will not allow others that aren't breeder to pressure me into testing just to make them happy and risk loosing a precious baby do to trying to make others happy....

I go on Experienced Breeders advice and they usually know what they are taking about as they have already walked down that path!!! Their Wisdom is so valueable if us New Breeders (Yes that includes me) would only listen and take their wisdom as our own. This is all my OPO... Lee

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

A blood draw is a blood draw no matter what test you do on it afterwards. It makes no sense to say one is safer than the other.

A blood draw is a blood draw is a blood draw... how can a blood draw for a blood panel be safer than a blood draw for a BAT test when it's the EXACT SAME THING Only the tests ran on the blood AFTER THE BLOOD IS DRAWN is different...

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

A blood draw is a blood draw is a blood draw... how can a blood draw for a blood panel be safer than a blood draw for a BAT test when it's the EXACT SAME THING Only the tests ran on the blood AFTER THE BLOOD IS DRAWN is different...

I am confused also.

Anyway, I am so sorry about what happened to Teaser. I think that breeders should have the say as to what goes on with their pups. I think if a breeder doesn't want to test pups routinely, that is fine.

What I don't think is okay is saying blood draws on puppies are always dangerous or saying blood draws from the jugular are just not at all safe.

There has to be a balance here.
Some puppies need to have blood tests and there is nothing anyone can do to get around that. Their lives may depend on it. Some vets prefer to draw from the jugular in small dogs because it is less stressful for all involved. Drawing from the leg of a small dog can easily collapse the vein making it impossible to get blood or repeated attempts may be necessary. That would be very stressful for a pup. The jugular is usually the vein of choice for very tiny dogs. I let Ellie's vet office draw hers from there because they are the ones (especially the vet) that have to do the procedure and they better be comfortable with what they are doing... Yes, there have been pups die from blood draws but I would hope the vet would know enough to weigh the risks and benefits (just like spay/neuter) and decide if it is something that needs to be done or if the patient can wait to have it drawn. There have been dogs die from jugular blood draws but it is very rare and again I would hope your vet would know what your dog can handle.

It just makes me very uneasy that so many people have gotten so nervous about drawing blood lately. I wouldn't have blood drawn from a puppy UNLESS it was necessary and I think the vet is the best person to decide that. I used to be nervous about the jugular vein thing and still am somewhat but you will get used to it. Your vet could always try the leg first and if that doesn't work then I think the jugular has to be an option.

[bjh]

CrystalVery well said. Sometimes blood draws are necessary and most vets do draw from the jugular vein. I think the main point is that most people feel that for a healthy puppy it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 2 lbs and preferably around 6 months old. I would never hesitate to have a blood panel done on a sick puppy or a BAT test if the vet felt is was necessary. The blood is drawn the same way but it just requires more blood to be drawn for a BAT test and that is one reason to wait until the puppy is older and weighs more.

[011011]

Originally Posted by bjh

CrystalVery well said. Sometimes blood draws are necessary and most vets do draw from the jugular vein. I think the main point is that most people feel that for a healthy puppy it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 2 lbs and preferably around 6 months old. I would never hesitate to have a blood panel done on a sick puppy or a BAT test if the vet felt is was necessary. The blood is drawn the same way but it just requires more blood to be drawn for a BAT test and that is one reason to wait until the puppy is older and weighs more.

:
A blood draw it not just a blood draw.
Takes more blood for a BAT.
My vet would do a panel first and then go from there as needed making sure there is no other underlying problems attributing to the symptoms.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bjh

CrystalVery well said. Sometimes blood draws are necessary and most vets do draw from the jugular vein. I think the main point is that most people feel that for a healthy puppy it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 2 lbs and preferably around 6 months old. I would never hesitate to have a blood panel done on a sick puppy or a BAT test if the vet felt is was necessary. The blood is drawn the same way but it just requires more blood to be drawn for a BAT test and that is one reason to wait until the puppy is older and weighs more.

Could you post the link to where you are seeing that a BAT takes more blood than a blood panel?

I am seeing from Dr. Dodds (Antech I think) that a bile acid test is 1 cc per draw, so 2 cc's. If only the postprandial is done it would be 1 cc. Above it are a couple blood panels/cbc's. It looks like these are 2.5 ml. So even doing pre and post bile acids would be less. What am I missing?

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Could you post the link to where you are seeing that a BAT takes more blood than a blood panel?

I am seeing from Dr. Dodds (Antech I think) that a bile acid test is 1 cc per draw, so 2 cc's. If only the postprandial is done it would be 1 cc. Above it are a couple blood panels/cbc's. It looks like these are 2.5 ml. So even doing pre and post bile acids would be less. What am I missing?

I am just basing my information from what I read in Teaser's case that 3 cc of blood were drawn and because of his size and the amount of blood drawn, his immune system was compromised. Maybe the vet drew more blood than was necessary. My main issue is that I do not encourage BAT testing on 12 week old healthy puppies. I would encourage a blood panel be done on a sick puppy and then if the vet feels it necessary, do a BAT test. There are dangers in many things, like vaccinations, spaying, neutering, etc but we cannot just not do these things because something might happen. In raising a dog there are many choices to be made and we just have to pray we make the right choices. The right choice for one dog might end up being the wrong choice for another. Tragically, sometimes no matter how hard we try to do the right thing, things just go wrong. Choosing the right vet is also very important.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Could you post the link to where you are seeing that a BAT takes more blood than a blood panel?

I am seeing from Dr. Dodds (Antech I think) that a bile acid test is 1 cc per draw, so 2 cc's. If only the postprandial is done it would be 1 cc. Above it are a couple blood panels/cbc's. It looks like these are 2.5 ml. So even doing pre and post bile acids would be less. What am I missing?

You are absolutely right, Crystal...That's how much blood Dr. Dodds asks for when doing a bile acid test...1cc per draw.

[NanaDtreasures]

And if you dont...take them to someone you do.

Some YT's need to quit putting out bad information
Members seeking help for their sick puppies may not know any better.

Bam Bam is getting better and still a few ...insist on pushing this test.
Why chance it?
While it may not have been the cause of lil teasers death and others.
It contributed to it in his weakened condition.
I would hate to have seen this happen to Bam Bam and others with sick tiny pups
Who would insist their vets do this test based on a few people from YT saying it?
Please dont....talk with your vets..yes..but do not push for this test.
Your vet will know if it should be done on such a tiny...young and sick puppy.

A blood draw is NOT a blood draw is a blood draw..

It takes an EXTRA CC at the least to do the BAT testing.
Along with what is needed to do the blood panel.
So more wrong information
Oh like this EXTRA small amount matters ?!?!?
Yes...It sure can on a puppy that is already sick and weak.
When you're talking a puppy who weighs mere OUNCES....
Its just not needed. And may mean death.

Since when is this Dr. Dodds website the bible on blood draws, BAT testing or anything else for that matter.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by NanaDtreasures

And if you dont...take them to someone you do.

Some YT's need to quit putting out bad information
Members seeking help for their sick puppies may not know any better.

Bam Bam is getting better and still a few ...insist on pushing this test.
Why chance it?
While it may not have been the cause of lil teasers death and others.
It contributed to it in his weakened condition.
I would hate to have seen this happen to Bam Bam and others with sick tiny pups
Who would insist their vets do this test based on a few people from YT saying it?
Please dont....talk with your vets..yes..but do not push for this test.
Your vet will know if it should be done on such a tiny...young and sick puppy.

A blood draw is NOT a blood draw is a blood draw..

It takes an EXTRA CC at the least to do the BAT testing.
Along with what is needed to do the blood panel.
So more wrong information
Oh like this EXTRA small amount matters ?!?!?
Yes...It sure can on a puppy that is already sick and weak.
When you're talking a puppy who weighs mere OUNCES....
Its just not needed. And may mean death.

Since when is this Dr. Dodds website the bible on blood draws, BAT testing or anything else for that matter.

At the time that Bam Bam's owner posted that there may be a problem, some very serious symptoms were being reported. These are the kind of symptoms that you can't just let go. Now, if the pup is getting better that is great and the test can wait. Had the pup not gotten better and a liver problem was present, it would have been in his best interest to get a diagnosis and support. Dogs with liver disease can go downhill very quickly.

I don't think anyone believes Dr. Dodds knows everything and she doesn't claim to. She is, however, one of the most knowledgeable vets on vaccines and I think even thyroid problems. Blood taken and sent to Dr. Dodds is sent to Antech. So Antech needs 1 cc of blood per draw for a bile acid test. It really has nothing to do with Dr. Dodds. It has to do with Antech.

If only the postprandial is done, it is 1 cc.
So far, from what I have read that is the same as or less than a blood panel.
Of course it is best to get paired samples, but if the amount of blood taken is that much of a concern, just doing the postprandial is a place to start.

This really doesn't apply to Bam Bam anymore since everything seems to be resolving but I haven't seen anything from a lab posted that says a blood panel takes less than 1 cc.

Ultimately all owners need to talk to their own vets and decide what is best for their pup/dog. In most cases, a sick pup probably should have a blood panel but very little is true 100% of the time and if a Yorkie is circling, head pressing and has no appetite and I can only have 1 cc of blood, I have to strongly consider (with my vet) doing a bile acid test.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by NanaDtreasures

Since when is this Dr. Dodds website the bible on blood draws, BAT testing or anything else for that matter.

Dr. Jean Dodds, Dr. Sharon Center, and Dr. Karen Tobias are the leading experts in the country on liver disease. Dr. Center developed the BAT test.

When and if to BAT test is up to the breeder and the person who buys the puppy, but it's very important that inaccurate information on the test being posted here be corrected. It is important to remember that this test is much more likely to save your Yorkies life, not take it.

[Woogie Man]

.... Debbi,.are you as frustrated as I am in seeing this talk (about blood draws) go on and on? It may well be fine to discuss this but THIS thread (despite the title of it) is about a very small, very young puppy that wasn't eating and to go on about it here borders on dangerous advice. You would think that some didn't even read the OP but just went into autopilot mode and began espousing on the virtues of a BAT. Even though no one has been rude or offensive here, I'd like to see this whole thread deleted. It's gotten off track, it's confusing and it could be dangerous the way information has been presented here.