how young is too young to test for liver shunt??

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Oh, dear. I hadn't seen the original thread. Apparently the OP bathed little Bam Bam in Hartz flea shampoo. I have heard so many horror stories about deadly reactions to Hartz and other flea products sold over the counter. I wonder if this could be the cause of his symptoms?

The side effects from Hartz flea products are frightening:

HartzVictims.org - One More Victim is One Too Many

Yes, Hartz is horrible.
I wouldn't be surprised if that is what is behind these symptoms although that would be hard to prove.

[lulababy]

Originally Posted by hasrv4fun

Oh trust me , i have been trying to stayon top of how Bam Bam was doing the move thing from the get-go except it seems i am only contacted after all the other possibilities have had their say

I just found this thread as i am busy most of the time and don't get on here and search but did today as i am not hearing from or able to contact the OP

Believe me i have been trying to offer advice , support and comfort - not sure if the breeder to owner connection is there.

I do wish Lulababy would call me , turn on phone or email me as to what is going on

hey helen, bam bam is still fine! He is still improving. this thread was started the morning after the first one, after I did not hear back from the email I sent out to you. don't worry lol I am not considering a bat test or blood panel, he seems okay now

[lulababy]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Oh, dear. I hadn't seen the original thread. Apparently the OP bathed little Bam Bam in Hartz flea shampoo. I have heard so many horror stories about deadly reactions to Hartz and other flea products sold over the counter. I wonder if this could be the cause of his symptoms?

The side effects from Hartz flea products are frightening:

HartzVictims.org - One More Victim is One Too Many

I did not bathe him in flea shampoo lol! It was the hartz puppy shampoo (which is supposed to be gentle??) and I followed it up with an oatmeal conditioner by another brand only because i thought perhaps the minksheen would be too strong for him (once I got a rash on my hand from the citronella after bathing pebbles). I bathed him this past sat with the minksheen though after learning he had been bathed with it before, incase he had been itchy from the hartz--but his symptoms of not eating, etc. had already existed before I bathed him.

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by bjh

I understand your frustrations. Do you know if Bam Bam has had any vaccinations since he went to his new home? I am just wondering if it could be a reaction to vaccinations.

Not to my knowledge, i know he went to the vet there but i don't believe any vacc's were given and shouldn't have been as Bam Bam and his siblings were very tiny
( NO I DO NOT BREED FOR TINIES I have 4 1/2 to 6 lb kids )
and it worried me so i didn't/ along with my vets advice -start their vaccinations untill they were 9 weeks old and the second set was given when they were 12 weeks which was a few days before he went to new mommy - i made sure that he didn't move right away as i wanted at least 48 hours to be sure he would have no reaction- none of them were down the least bit from either set of shots - another reason why i let him go as he was just a robust , active , tear around little guy untill the food changes and shampoo - i am far away but would get in my car in a heart beat and go the 400 miles if i could get the ok and go get him untill this passes or we find out whats going on here - I am extremely worried because i don't seem to be able to stay in contact with his mommy.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by lulababy

hey helen, bam bam is still fine! He is still improving. this thread was started the morning after the first one, after I did not hear back from the email I sent out to you. don't worry lol I am not considering a bat test or blood panel, he seems okay now

I am so glad that Bam Bam is still doing okay. I read on another thread you started that Bam Bam is sleeping in the bed with you at night. I would really advise against that considering his size. I feel that he would be much safer sleeping in a x-pen at night so he can get to his food and water during the night and use the pee pads. In my opinion, I would never put a puppy that tiny in bed with me, to many dangers.

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by lulababy

hey helen, bam bam is still fine! He is still improving. this thread was started the morning after the first one, after I did not hear back from the email I sent out to you. don't worry lol I am not considering a bat test or blood panel, he seems okay now

OH thank you for posting -
I have been so worried

Keep me up to date please
is he eating on his own ? what did he decide to eat ?

Please let every one know how he is doing as so many on here are trying to help and are worried about him.

I was about to get in the car by this evening if i didn't hear from you

Thanks again for the post and give him a kiss for me

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by bjh

I am so glad that Bam Bam is still doing okay. I read on another thread you started that Bam Bam is sleeping in the bed with you at night. I would really advise against that considering his size. I feel that he would be much safer sleeping in a x-pen at night so he can get to his food and water during the night and use the pee pads. In my opinion, I would never put a puppy that tiny in bed with me, to many dangers.

[lulababy]

He is not eating on his own yet.. he does not go to the food and eat of his own accord. I still must offer him food at several scheduled points during the day, but he is eating during these times unlike before. He is taking a nap now, but earlier he was up and about being the little mighty mouse that he is. He has gained half an ounce as well, which is a good sign.

I know many people would be afraid for him to sleep in the bed with them, but pebbles has slept with me in the bed since she was bam bams size and it has gone perfectly well. No accidents. I have tiny stairs up to the bed, along with putting a little border around his half of the bed with some blankets. It is perfectly safe, believe me, as i do not move around much while I sleep and am a light sleeper. I wake up early with him and take him to the paper and feed him, so really, everything is okay. I think he would really hate it if I put him somewhere else to sleep. He comes in when he wants and leaves when he wants and i really think he would not like it if he was separate from pebbles and I at night.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

That is great.

I do not understand why a blood panel is being recommended though.
So we shouldn't take blood for a bile acid test because it is too risky but we should take it for a blood panel that is going to give use less information about the liver?

A blood panel is a good tool but the bile acid test is much more likely to indicate a problem with liver function. Ultimately both should be done but since that is too much blood to be taking, I would really hesitate to just do a general panel. I think a specialist could best decide which way to go here.

A/D shouldn't be given to any dog suspected of having liver problems.
I'm not saying to stop using it because your vet gave it to you but I would talk to them about switching to something else. That much protein and those ingredients are not okay until liver problems are ruled out.

And just because symptoms go away doesn't mean they can't return.
If drugs/vaccines were given it could've brought out symptoms that have since went away because the body has processed the toxins now...

So while it is very likely that your pup doesn't have liver issues at all, I'd be very careful until I knew for sure.

I feel like incorrect information is being given regarding doing a blood panel instead of a BAT if liver issues are truly suspected. A blood draw is a blood draw...no more safer to take a blood draw for a blood panel than a BAT...and honestly, the risk from a blood draw is very low. If a dog is sick with no specific issues suspected, go for the full blood panel. But if specific liver shunt symptoms were showing up, then a BAT is in order to get the best idea of what's going on.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Oh, dear. I hadn't seen the original thread. Apparently the OP bathed little Bam Bam in Hartz flea shampoo. I have heard so many horror stories about deadly reactions to Hartz and other flea products sold over the counter. I wonder if this could be the cause of his symptoms?

The side effects from Hartz flea products are frightening:

HartzVictims.org - One More Victim is One Too Many

yes, I saw the other thread too. I would never use ANY Hartz products on my dogs as many of their products have had fatal results. They shouldn't be on the shelves at all. It could very well be that this puppy is just not adjusting well right now. He needs to eat regularly to keep his energy up..not eating and only having nutrical could very well be why is so weak. The nutrical spikes up their blood sugar and then they crash....food will give a more steady increase and decrease in blood sugar. Also, he could have been rubbing up against the furniture because he wasn't used to his color...Rylie rubs against the furniture when I put his topknot up sometimes. I think it's a good idea to try and get this baby to eat regularly to keep his blood sugar steady and give him some time to adjust. If he does continue to show possible liver shunt symptoms or starts to go downhill instead of improving, he needs a BAT.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by hasrv4fun

Also , i want to say that i have offered to drive the 400 miles to her and bring Bam Bam home until both he and her are over the medical issues they seem to be having. I have not been able to convince her that would be in his best interest.

I'm so glad you've been in touch (or attempting to) with the new owner. I'm sure your advice, along with the vet, can help her get through these issues with Bam Bam. It may very well be in his best interest to go back to you for a few weeks until he has more weight on him and is eating very well on his own. I hope he starts improving soon and starts to eat regularly on his own.

[Woogie Man]

I'm glad to see this baby is doing better. With the breeder and owner communicating, it seems they can get him over this hump. I don't think there's so much an issue with incorrect information as with inappropriate information. Let's all remember here that in the OP it was stated that this is a 13 week old, very small 18 ounce puppy. A casual reader could come across this thread and get the idea it was fine to do a BAT on such a small, young baby. One that small and young and not eating needs that paid attention to more than anything unless the vet felt it was prudent to do further testing at that time. These little ones simply don't have much reserve and any further testing should only be done on the advisement of a qualified vet that is there to evaluate the puppy personally. Why even suggest a BAT anyway? Isn't 18 weeks the minimum recommended age for an accurate result?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'm glad to see this baby is doing better. With the breeder and owner communicating, it seems they can get him over this hump. I don't think there's so much an issue with incorrect information as with inappropriate information. Let's all remember here that in the OP it was stated that this is a 13 week old, very small 18 ounce puppy. A casual reader could come across this thread and get the idea it was fine to do a BAT on such a small, young baby. One that small and young and not eating needs that paid attention to more than anything unless the vet felt it was prudent to do further testing at that time. These little ones simply don't have much reserve and any further testing should only be done on the advisement of a qualified vet that is there to evaluate the puppy personally. Why even suggest a BAT anyway? Isn't 18 weeks the minimum recommended age for an accurate result?

Yes, it would be good to do it no earlier than 18 weeks but if the pup is showing symptoms and is in danger, the test should be considered sooner.



As for the rubbing and circling described, I think a dog would rub against furniture to scrach or try and get a collar off. I do not think they would push their head into it or continuous walk in circles (unless chasing tail or scratching) just because. I thought that is what was being described...

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

I feel like incorrect information is being given regarding doing a blood panel instead of a BAT if liver issues are truly suspected. A blood draw is a blood draw...no more safer to take a blood draw for a blood panel than a BAT...and honestly, the risk from a blood draw is very low. If a dog is sick with no specific issues suspected, go for the full blood panel. But if specific liver shunt symptoms were showing up, then a BAT is in order to get the best idea of what's going on.

I agree 100%. We had long thread recently about a puppy who tragically died shortly after having a routine BAT test done. Did anyone read the thread after that with the results of the necropsy done on the puppy? The puppy did not die from the BAT test. The puppy died from Cryptosporidium, a particularly nasty form of Coccidia.

Cryptosporidium

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...sy-teaser.html

The risk from a BAT test is very low. The real risk is not to BAT test Yorkies. Please remember that Yorkies are thirty-six times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined and that Dr. Center recommends that all Yorkie puppies have a BAT test. (She has recently revised the recommended age to 18 weeks.)

Hopefully with the grant form the AKC, Dr. Center will find a genetic marker to screen for liver shunts prior to breeding. Until then, a BAT is the only test available to detect this deadly condition.

[011011]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

I feel like incorrect information is being given regarding doing a blood panel instead of a BAT if liver issues are truly suspected. A blood draw is a blood draw...no more safer to take a blood draw for a blood panel than a BAT...and honestly, the risk from a blood draw is very low. If a dog is sick with no specific issues suspected, go for the full blood panel. But if specific liver shunt symptoms were showing up, then a BAT is in order to get the best idea of what's going on.

Then I guess my vet dosent know a thing after 35 years