how young is too young to test for liver shunt??

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Dr. Jean Dodds, Dr. Sharon Center, and Dr. Karen Tobias are the leading experts in the country on liver disease. Dr. Center developed the BAT test.

When and if to BAT test is up to the breeder and the person who buys the puppy, but it's very important that inaccurate information on the test being posted here be corrected. It is important to remember that this test is much more likely to save your Yorkies life, not take it.

I totally agree and I am going to be done posting in this thread now because it is just a waste of time.

What I do want to say though is Dr. Center, Dr. Tobias and Dr. Dodds are the experts on liver disease. They have the experience diagnosing and treating it as vets, not me or anyone else on YorkieTalk, so if a liver problem is suspected, please listen to them.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I totally agree and I am going to be done posting in this thread now because it is just a waste of time.

What I do want to say though is Dr. Center, Dr. Tobias and Dr. Dodds are the experts on liver disease. They have the experience diagnosing and treating it as vets, not me or anyone else on YorkieTalk, so if a liver problem is suspected, please listen to them.

If a dog has symptoms of liver shunt like staggering, low blood sugar, head pressing, etc., would it not be dangerous to run a bat test if not for the fact that it takes several days to get the results back? When a dog is showing these symptoms wouldn't the vet want to know immediately if the liver was compromised and if the liver is compromised don't they immediately put the dog on antibiotic, a liver cleansing diet and lactutose? Wouldn't the vet then wait until the dog is stable before going any further? Just running a BAT test will not let you know what kind of shunt it is, it just lets you know that the dog most likely has a shunt but we also know that bat tests can be wrong so then you go to the next step after that. These things take time so the most critical thing is to get the dog stable then proceed from there. To me the advise of running a bat test on a sick dog and not a blood panel first is incorrect. I don't know of any vet that would do that. When you have a tiny sick puppy, time is critical. It takes time to diagnose a liver shunt and surgery is not always and option. Many ls dogs live relatively good lives if on the proper medication and diet.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I totally agree and I am going to be done posting in this thread now because it is just a waste of time.

What I do want to say though is Dr. Center, Dr. Tobias and Dr. Dodds are the experts on liver disease. They have the experience diagnosing and treating it as vets, not me or anyone else on YorkieTalk, so if a liver problem is suspected, please listen to them.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by bjh

If a dog has symptoms of liver shunt like staggering, low blood sugar, head pressing, etc., would it not be dangerous to run a bat test if not for the fact that it takes several days to get the results back? When a dog is showing these symptoms wouldn't the vet want to know immediately if the liver was compromised and if the liver is compromised don't they immediately put the dog on antibiotic, a liver cleansing diet and lactutose? Wouldn't the vet then wait until the dog is stable before going any further? Just running a BAT test will not let you know what kind of shunt it is, it just lets you know that the dog most likely has a shunt but we also know that bat tests can be wrong so then you go to the next step after that. These things take time so the most critical thing is to get the dog stable then proceed from there. To me the advise of running a bat test on a sick dog and not a blood panel first is incorrect. I don't know of any vet that would do that. When you have a tiny sick puppy, time is critical. It takes time to diagnose a liver shunt and surgery is not always and option. Many ls dogs live relatively good lives if on the proper medication and diet.

The point that Ellie May is trying to make is that a blood panel does not always show if there's a problem in the liver. So, there may very well be a problem but because a regular blood panel was done and not a BAT, the owner of a sick puppy might *think* that the problem is not in the liver b/c of a normal blood panel and continue a high protein puppy diet which could be absolutely detrimental to a dog that may have a liver issue. That's all she's trying to say...
You are correct, a BAT will not tell you if it's a shunt, but it will tell you if there's an issue going on with the liver, and if this is the case, then that dog needs to be put on a liver protocol until they find out what's really going on so that the dog does not go downhill, just in case.
There are times when surgery is not done at all or may not be appropriate and these dogs are medically and nutritionally managed and can live long lives, but the key is that they are on the proper protocol.

This post that I just made is not directed toward the original poster...I'm just following along with the discussion about BATs and blood panels...

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

The point that Ellie May is trying to make is that a blood panel does not always show if there's a problem in the liver. So, there may very well be a problem but because a regular blood panel was done and not a BAT, the owner of a sick puppy might *think* that the problem is not in the liver b/c of a normal blood panel and continue a high protein puppy diet which could be absolutely detrimental to a dog that may have a liver issue. That's all she's trying to say...
You are correct, a BAT will not tell you if it's a shunt, but it will tell you if there's an issue going on with the liver, and if this is the case, then that dog needs to be put on a liver protocol until they find out what's really going on so that the dog does not go downhill, just in case.
There are times when surgery is not done at all or may not be appropriate and these dogs are medically and nutritionally managed and can live long lives, but the key is that they are on the proper protocol.

This post that I just made is not directed toward the original poster...I'm just following along with the discussion about BATs and blood panels...

I understand that in a healthy looking dog it is possible to run a blood panel and the results could show no liver problem and a problem could exist. When a dog is showing symptoms like staggering and head pressing it is because of excess ammonia building up in the blood. If you test a sick dog that is having these symptoms it will show something in a blood panel. If you have a seemingly healthy puppy that is a picky eater, thin and is not growing properly then I would recommend running a bat test to rule out liver shunt.

[Susan123]

No one here is a vet, vet tech's don't matter. Education, don't care. Everyone needs to have a relations with their own vet. The ones screaming test test test are non breeders and non vets. Breeders love their dogs more than anyone and it's up to them. what they want to do. They can test parents, any problems get a panel done, more problems do a BAT. Good gracious people.

[011011]

Originally Posted by Susan123

No one here is a vet, vet tech's don't matter. Education, don't care. Everyone needs to have a relations with their own vet. The ones screaming test test test are non breeders and non vets. Breeders love their dogs more than anyone and it's up to them. what they want to do. They can test parents, any problems get a panel done, more problems do a BAT. Good gracious people.

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by NanaDtreasures

And if you dont...take them to someone you do.

Some YT's need to quit putting out bad information
Members seeking help for their sick puppies may not know any better.

Bam Bam is getting better and still a few ...insist on pushing this test.
Why chance it?
While it may not have been the cause of lil teasers death and others.
It contributed to it in his weakened condition.
I would hate to have seen this happen to Bam Bam and others with sick tiny pups
Who would insist their vets do this test based on a few people from YT saying it?
Please dont....talk with your vets..yes..but do not push for this test.
Your vet will know if it should be done on such a tiny...young and sick puppy.

A blood draw is NOT a blood draw is a blood draw..

It takes an EXTRA CC at the least to do the BAT testing.
Along with what is needed to do the blood panel.
So more wrong information
Oh like this EXTRA small amount matters ?!?!?
Yes...It sure can on a puppy that is already sick and weak.
When you're talking a puppy who weighs mere OUNCES....
Its just not needed. And may mean death.

Since when is this Dr. Dodds website the bible on blood draws, BAT testing or anything else for that matter.

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

.... Debbi,.are you as frustrated as I am in seeing this talk (about blood draws) go on and on? It may well be fine to discuss this but THIS thread (despite the title of it) is about a very small, very young puppy that wasn't eating and to go on about it here borders on dangerous advice. You would think that some didn't even read the OP but just went into autopilot mode and began espousing on the virtues of a BAT. Even though no one has been rude or offensive here, I'd like to see this whole thread deleted. It's gotten off track, it's confusing and it could be dangerous the way information has been presented here.

[lulababy]

I just wanted to say that bam bam is doing a lot better now and he is eating and gaining weight. i do not think he has a liver problem at this point and probably does not need to get BAT in the future, as he is eating a high protein diet and is doing excellently

[NanaDtreasures]

Originally Posted by Susan123

No one here is a vet, vet tech's don't matter. Education, don't care. Everyone needs to have a relations with their own vet. The ones screaming test test test are non breeders and non vets. Breeders love their dogs more than anyone and it's up to them. what they want to do. They can test parents, any problems get a panel done, more problems do a BAT. Good gracious people.

I so agree....
Don't go by what anyone on a web page or forum posts.

Go by what your TRUSTED vet recommends...
They have went to school for YEARS to be able to provide the best care for your babies.
They love animals every bit as much as we do and want to provide the best care for them.


I am so glad Bam Bam is doing good now
Hopefully he will settle in now... and grow and thrive in your home.

[NanaDtreasures]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

.... Debbi,.are you as frustrated as I am in seeing this talk (about blood draws) go on and on? It may well be fine to discuss this but THIS thread (despite the title of it) is about a very small, very young puppy that wasn't eating and to go on about it here borders on dangerous advice. You would think that some didn't even read the OP but just went into autopilot mode and began espousing on the virtues of a BAT. Even though no one has been rude or offensive here, I'd like to see this whole thread deleted. It's gotten off track, it's confusing and it could be dangerous the way information has been presented here.

Yes I get frustrated...lol
As I first posted in this thread about the little LS puppy that this young gal bought from the Toledo Ohio breeder.
It was sad...the whole thing made me sick that his "professional show breeder" would tell her that this little tiny puppy was healthy.
But just shook sometimes and needed "vitamins".

But this young girl had a vet...
Yes...even in a small Ohio town...who knew to do the BAT test on this puppy.
He did it...they found LS..and the puppy died ...
But YT sure doesn't need a few people on here over and over telling everyone to have tiny puppies tested if they become sick...Or even worse...on healthy little puppies before they bring one home...

Can you imagine going to your vet and saying.
Well I want my puppy BAT tested for LS...because a few people on a forum told me it could be LS..because he's sick.
They would look at them like their nuts...And think or say..
Let ME be the judge of that.

If the blood panel is off
Rest assured that your vet will run the BAT test.
Just like the vet from this little Ohio town did.

[YorkieAZ]

Originally Posted by Susan123

No one here is a vet, vet tech's don't matter. Education, don't care. Everyone needs to have a relations with their own vet. The ones screaming test test test are non breeders and non vets. Breeders love their dogs more than anyone and it's up to them. what they want to do. They can test parents, any problems get a panel done, more problems do a BAT. Good gracious people.

Good post!!

[katelin]

Originally Posted by Susan123

No one here is a vet, vet tech's don't matter. Education, don't care. Everyone needs to have a relations with their own vet. The ones screaming test test test are non breeders and non vets. Breeders love their dogs more than anyone and it's up to them. what they want to do. They can test parents, any problems get a panel done, more problems do a BAT. Good gracious people.

"I just wanted to say that bam bam is doing a lot better now and he is eating and gaining weight. i do not think he has a liver problem at this point and probably does not need to get BAT in the future, as he is eating a high protein diet and is doing excellently"



I'm so glad Bam Bam is doing so well -- and all without the risks of BAT testing. Just good common sense, which was supplied by several of our experienced YT breeders.

The first rule in medicine is "Do No Harm." That is the basis for conservative treatment as symptoms are analyzed and decisions are made for further treatment needs.

The second rule in medicine is "Listen To Your Patient". No one knows the factual situation as well as the patient -- here it is the owner/OP. Looking at what she posted it was pretty clear that the advice from the breeders was based upon her reported symptoms and got the desired results. She posted that he was improving and didn't need any further diagnostics.

Finally, in my opinion, this discussion became a platform for those who would push their opinions on others -- and newer members may not be aware that a strident tone and thousands of posts may not equal real experience and knowledge. Thank goodness OP kept a calm head and followed the excellent advice given by the experienced breeders.

This is such a wonderful forum, I hope it continues to provide sound advice to those in need.

Well Done Breeders.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by katelin

The first rule in medicine is "Do No Harm."

Finally, in my opinion, this discussion became a platform for those who would push their opinions on others -- and newer members may not be aware that a strident tone and thousands of posts may not equal real experience and knowledge. Thank goodness OP kept a calm head and followed the excellent advice given by the experienced breeders.

Actually "Do No Harm" is usually placed as the 2nd or 3rd rule in the Hippocratic Oath, not the first. I point that out not to split hairs but because you are confidently accusing several members of sharing wrong information, while largely applauding an entire group of other members.

I am a nurse, my sister is a doctor -> one of our favorite jokes: What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their medical school class? A DOCTOR. And that type of continuum exists all over. My point? Of course, have a relationship with your vet. But, it does serve you well to gather information on forums, despite all the semi-bashing I'm seeing in this thread. Not all vets are good vets, and that's a fact.

Was all the information given here entirely correct? Maybe not, both by non-breeders and breeders. But there was some great information provided here by both breeders and OTHERS. Just being a breeder does not make someone an expert about this, or any other, health matter. There were folks, breeders and others, who posted in this thread and have extensive knowledge about this specific issue. Everyone added value to the discussion.

I find it disappointing and careless to assume that one group, by nature of their label, can hold all the knowledge. Being a breeder does not, by definition, equal "knowledge and experience" either. There is a lot more that goes into those two qualifiers than just a label called "breeder". Just ask one of the above breeders who has actually earned those two labels.

I think this thread has probably run its course.