Bile Acid Testing

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I have dreamt of doing this most of my life but the truth is between the economy, the backyard breeders, and now the health issues I just don't know about hanging in there. Maybe Wolperts right, I should have started 20 years ago instead of having kids because trying to be a member of the dogfancy is no party now.

I wish I would have started way back when too but I didn't and I do enjoy this and I do understand what you are saying!
Any endeavor you take up is going to have it's ups and downs no matter when you decide to do it but we do it for the love of the breed and educate ourselves along with the buying public. Hang in there hon, just take it a step at a time Do like I do and just take it a litter at a time

Donna

[Mom 2 B]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I totally understand truely I do but doing a BAT test is something to me is just very important and shouldn't be skipped. It is all very overwhelming but I just can't risk a new puppy owner maybe getting a shunt puppy.

Just to add to this. If I bought a Yorkie without this knowledge (first, shame on me for not doing my research) and it turned out to have LS, AND I found out the breeder could've done a test, I would be telling everyone I know not to buy from this breeder.

And, I have done this. I have two Springers, one from a great breeder and the other not. I tell everyone who will listen not to buy from the breeder where my epileptic Springer came from. I know epilepsy can happen to any dog but I have since found out that this breeder has bred other epileptics (again, I didn't do my research, he was my first purebred and I fell in love). She also cut off all communication with us when we told her about our dog. He was a couple of days shy of his first birthday. She was not an ethical breeder, unlike the breeders on here.

Sorry to keep butting in.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

To be honest what's the difference in placing a 12 week old puppy vs. a 16 week old puppy? Breeders want to place them that bad or for the money? I've had NO problems placing a puppy at even 7 to 8 months old. I have a 9 month old I'm showing and I could place her into a pet home right now. If you are a responsible breeder why not test before placing? If you care about the breed and doing it ethically I see no reason NOT to TEST! JMHO

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Donna, the honest truth is that most breeders do not feel like you do, whether it is right or wrong. It is like when two people get married and want to have children, most just jump right in and do it without thinking of all the cost and responsibilities required in raising children. I am struggling myself keeping puppies longer than I used to. I am trying to do better and I love my Yorkies more than anything. I would love more than anything to be able to breed my own champion. You are a show breeder and I imagine you have a waiting list a mile long. Back when I started raising Yorkies 12 years ago there were very few Yorkie breeders around and now they are everywhere and most probably don't have a clue about liver shunts, testing and all that. I really don't feel that it is helpful to the breed to call all breeders unethical just because they don't do things your way. JMHO We need to reach out and educated breeders and pet owners and pray that some of this will sink in without totally scaring them away and making them feel uncaring and bad.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by bjh

Donna, the honest truth is that most breeders do not feel like you do, whether it is right or wrong. It is like when two people get married and want to have children, most just jump right in and do it without thinking of all the cost and responsibilities required in raising children. I am struggling myself keeping puppies longer than I used to. I am trying to do better and I love my Yorkies more than anything. I would love more than anything to be able to breed my own champion. You are a show breeder and I imagine you have a waiting list a mile long. Back when I started raising Yorkies 12 years ago there were very few Yorkie breeders around and now they are everywhere and most probably don't have a clue about liver shunts, testing and all that. I really don't feel that it is helpful to the breed to call all breeders unethical just because they don't do things your way. JMHO We need to reach out and educated breeders and pet owners and pray that some of this will sink in without totally scaring them away and making them feel uncaring and bad.

But these are not kids and some people shouldn't breed either and I'd say the same thing to certain human breedings....
You don't have to do it "my" way but I do call it like it is, like it or not...
That's why we have a problem with LS in our breed because "some" people don't care and it will continue that way unfortunately. But as I see it if those that are breeding shunts and continue knowingly then I feel sorry for those puppies and new puppy owners. And if anyone wants to try and breed healthy pups then I see no reason to NOT test. If it scares them away then their intentions aren't to breed ethically or they would stay and continue to learn. Truth is truth no way around it No I don't have a waiting list because I do not have but one litter a year and do not have that many puppies available. I love my small scale breeding program because I can make sure I do things the right way with my own breeding and showing program
I'm in no way trying to be ugly just stating if any breeder is in this to better the breed then I see no reason not to test. JMHO....

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Woogie Man]

With the rise in popularity of Yorkies in the past few years, and given that the data on LS is several years old, it hardly seems fair to blame the high incidence of LS on indiscriminate breeding. Prior to the breed's rise in popularity, one would have to assume that many Yorkies were bred by those with established breeding programs and not so-called back yard breeders and it would be from these breeders that the available data was compiled, though I'm sure careless breeding has contributed to the problem. There was an earlier post on this thread regarding a possible link between vaccinations and LS. I have wondered this myself and new evidence is coming out that we are over-vaccinating our dogs based on titer counts. It seems that in most cases (though it varies from dog to dog) that annual booster shots are not needed and there is speculation that, while not necessarily harmful to the dog, may indeed affect their future puppies. I personally changed vets due to this very issue. We had a conflict as she insisted on giving my dogs annual rabies shots while, in my state, it is required by law that the rabies vaccination be a 3 year vaccination. There is also evidence that titer counts for parvo and coronavirus remain high for up to 7 years following initial vaccinations so in those cases booster shots do no good. While this may not answer any questions about LS specifically, it does make one wonder if we aren't weakening our dogs natural immune system and leaving them open to all sorts of health issues.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

With the rise in popularity of Yorkies in the past few years, and given that the data on LS is several years old, it hardly seems fair to blame the high incidence of LS on indiscriminate breeding. Prior to the breed's rise in popularity, one would have to assume that many Yorkies were bred by those with established breeding programs and not so-called back yard breeders and it would be from these breeders that the available data was compiled, though I'm sure careless breeding has contributed to the problem. There was an earlier post on this thread regarding a possible link between vaccinations and LS. I have wondered this myself and new evidence is coming out that we are over-vaccinating our dogs based on titer counts. It seems that in most cases (though it varies from dog to dog) that annual booster shots are not needed and there is speculation that, while not necessarily harmful to the dog, may indeed affect their future puppies. I personally changed vets due to this very issue. We had a conflict as she insisted on giving my dogs annual rabies shots while, in my state, it is required by law that the rabies vaccination be a 3 year vaccination. There is also evidence that titer counts for parvo and coronavirus remain high for up to 7 years following initial vaccinations so in those cases booster shots do no good. While this may not answer any questions about LS specifically, it does make one wonder if we aren't weakening our dogs natural immune system and leaving them open to all sorts of health issues.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the problems with LS but I do agree of the over medicating of animals and I stated in a previous post I don't give Rabies but once at a year old and then only and I mean only when after 3 years I have to fly and it's required.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm in no way trying to be ugly just stating if any breeder is in this to better the breed then I see no reason not to test. JMHO....

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I understand what you are saying but I personally think it is more reasonably to try to get people to do basic blood panels on puppies and adults and then go from there. I just think that is a reasonable starting point that most breeders might be comfortable with. From what I am hearing even vets think the first step should be a blood panel and only do a BAT if the blood panel is questionable. I know you are not trying to be ugly, you have very strong convictions but people that don't know you might get offended. I think many breeders just accept the fact that birth defects are a part of life and just hope it won't happen to them. Kind of like playing Russian Roulette.

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=bjh;1855536]Donna, the honest truth is that most breeders do not feel like you do, whether it is right or wrong. It is like when two people get...

Do you sell your puppies with full breeding rights?

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=Ladyhawk;1855424]I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold .

If you're being selective about your bloodlines, selective about where your puppies go, honest with your customers about LS and how to look for it, and hold the AKC papers for proof of spay/neuter you're doing plenty. Some of these people on her think BAT solves the problem. They don't get that the test only catches the diseased animals and not the carriers. Forget it, it's like talking to the wall...

[bjh]

[quote=dudley1984;1855652]

Originally Posted by bjh

Donna, the honest truth is that most breeders do not feel like you do, whether it is right or wrong. It is like when two people get...

Do you sell your puppies with full breeding rights?

In the past I have sold with full breeding rights. For the past year I have starting selling with limited registration on most of my puppies.

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=bjh;1855677][quote=dudley1984;1855652]

In the past I have sold with full breeding rights. For the past year I have starting selling with limited registration on most of my puppies.[/QUOTE

Selling without breeding rights gets you off the hook for spreading live shunt...

[bjh]

[QUOTE=dudley1984
Selling without breeding rights gets you off the hook for spreading live shunt...[/QUOTE]

Yes, I realize that. I am changing a lot of things I have done in the past. Even if you just withhold papers the dogs can still be bred and registered with other registries. I know it would be best to spay and neuter before they leave and that is something I can strive for.

[Ladyhawk]

It seems the experts can't even agree on the best way to manage this problem. Dr. Larry Snyder, DMV wrote:
Fasting and 2-hr. post meal blood samples are evaluated for bile acid levels. In virtually all porto-systemic shunts there will be a significant rise in the bile acid levels over normal. The use of bile acids in screening clinically normal dogs for liver shunts is not currently being advised due to the variation of normal bile acid levels in Yorkshire Terriers, & other breeds as well. Reports of recent vaccination with modified-live vaccines causing high serum bile acid levels in normal animals have not been confirmed as of this time.

[blitz]

[quote=dudley1984;1855672]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold .

If you're being selective about your bloodlines, selective about where your puppies go, honest with your customers about LS and how to look for it, and hold the AKC papers for proof of spay/neuter you're doing plenty. Some of these people on her think BAT solves the problem. They don't get that the test only catches the diseased animals and not the carriers. Forget it, it's like talking to the wall...

I'm sorry you feel that way about this discussion. People get heated because this controversial, complicated subject. Personally, I am so happy that so many people are reading and giving their opinions. And catching the "diseased animals" (really, you could use a dose of compassion or at least tact) is better than selling them to unsuspecting puppy buyers or other breeders, especially, if your reputation is all that important to you. Also, if pedigree research is your thing, which you stated, identifying the carriers should be very important to you.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

It seems the experts can't even agree on the best way to manage this problem. Dr. Larry Snyder, DMV wrote:
Fasting and 2-hr. post meal blood samples are evaluated for bile acid levels. In virtually all porto-systemic shunts there will be a significant rise in the bile acid levels over normal. The use of bile acids in screening clinically normal dogs for liver shunts is not currently being advised due to the variation of normal bile acid levels in Yorkshire Terriers, & other breeds as well. Reports of recent vaccination with modified-live vaccines causing high serum bile acid levels in normal animals have not been confirmed as of this time.

I never heard of Dr. Larry Snyder but Sharon Center who has dedicated herself to this problem, contends that bile acids over 25 in a young dog is abnormal in Yorkshire Terriers and indicates liver disease. If it is a young dog without any other problems, it inidicates LS or MVD. If it is an older, sick dog, it could be a sign of other liver problems. That's why she wants us to do BAT on young healthy dogs before other disease processes could cause elevated bile acids. Please look her research for yourself.