Bile Acid Testing

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

believe me, I wasn't talking about the doctors that have done this research. in fact, I have studied everything that has been posted in this thread over and over long before this question was ever posed to the breeders here on this site.

See another breeder learning more and more! Way to go! Keep up the research and education!

Donna

[katelin]

Perhaps this isn't the thread to use.... but if you don't do any advertising (internet or newspapers) where do you find your buyers??

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by katelin

Perhaps this isn't the thread to use.... but if you don't do any advertising (internet or newspapers) where do you find your buyers??

Buyers find me...word of mouth and the YTCA website.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[bjh]

Originally Posted by katelin

Perhaps this isn't the thread to use.... but if you don't do any advertising (internet or newspapers) where do you find your buyers??

For most of us that are not members of the YTCA the only way to find puppy buyers is through word of mouth, news papers, online ad sites, and Yorkie Webrings, if you have a website. To become a member of the YTCA you have to be sponsored by someone that is already a member that has actually visited your home. You also must to agree to abide by the YTCA Code of Ethics.

[Woogie Man]

Quote from Ladyhawk......"I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves." ...... I personally have not heard of this before but have read that chronic kidney and liver disease is the #1 cause of death in all breeds. I try to be pro-active in my dogs' health by maintaining a low-risk profile. I don't over-vaccinate, use a non-chemical flea preventative and feed them what I think is a high quality food. I use Drs. Foster & Smith's food which has a 21% protein content. Would this be considered high? I would also be interested in hearing from others about their vaccination protocol in their puppies and adults as there seems to be no consensus on this issue either. I realize there is no one size fits all answer to vaccinations but would still like to hear from others.

[Tx2Stepn]

Originally Posted by bjh

For most of us that are not members of the YTCA the only way to find puppy buyers is through word of mouth, news papers, online ad sites, and Yorkie Webrings, if you have a website. To become a member of the YTCA you have to be sponsored by someone that is already a member that has actually visited your home. You also must to agree to abide by the YTCA Code of Ethics.

The Code of Ethics is no problem and a great idea, but trying to find a member to come to your house when you live far away from any members is near impossible... I think that they should have a way for those that live away from other members to be checked in another manner in order to join, like a letter of reference from your local Kennel Club or members for reference to your character.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Tx2Stepn

The Code of Ethics is no problem and a great idea, but trying to find a member to come to your house when you live far away from any members is near impossible... I think that they should have a way for those that live away from other members to be checked in another manner in order to join, like a letter of reference from your local Kennel Club or members for reference to your character.

I agree, I think YTCA Code of Ethics is great and that is what every Yorkie breeder should be striving for whether you are a member or not. I would love to be a member some day too but I know that will take time to achieve. Maybe sometime when there are shows in your area you could invite a YTCA member to your home if there are any members showing in your area.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by blitz

I don't know how someone can have a valid opinion that contradicts cold hard science and years of scientific research. I doubt my local vet is as knowledgeable as Dr. Center on the issue of liver shunt. Why then wasn't he invited to speak at the liver shunt seminar at the Specialty in New York? Have you read and understood the research done by Dr. Tobias and Dr. Center? I had to read it a few times before I could understand it.

People dock puppies tails for cosmetic purposes and then say a blood draw for health screening is horrific. I don't get that.

What research is telling you that BAT is not the best testing available for detecting MVD/liver shunt in young Yorkies? I really want to know in case I've been mislead by Dr. Center.

It's this kind of attitude that makes people not want to be involved in further discussion. There really is no need for sarcasm and Amazing Yorkies impressions of the blood drawing procedure are her impressions. She has a right to share them and not be put down because you have not had the same experience. I don't know why you would talk about your local vet in such an unkind way but I wander if he would be offended by your attitude. My vet is my partner in my breeding program. He raises Whippets, has been a long time member of the dog fancy, showed confirmation for years and is presently involved in agility. He answers my call in the middle of the night and the wee hours of the morning. He has talked me through milking a pup down the birth canal and has raced to the office at 6:00am to save my Roxie's life. A good breeder's vet isn't easy to find and I do not change my health protocol without discussing it with him first. I will also discuss my findings on this subject with my mentor before any new tests are performed. She has 18 years experience in breeding and showing yorkies and has been generous enough to agree to share her years of experience with me. When someone has been kind enough to agree to invest in your life in that way you discuss these things with that partner. I have read the research several times and I understand it, I have also read research by Dr. Larry Snyder who disagrees about the best way of testing for this problem. I already posted about what he has to say for anyone who is interested. It is not unusual for even experts to disagree on the best way to proceed in solving a problem, I'm sure they will continue their research and who knows what the answer will be? Meanwhile I am allowed to have remaining questions and to seek answers from others that I respect without censorship from you or anyone else.

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

It's this kind of attitude that makes people not want to be involved in further discussion. There really is no need for sarcasm and Amazing Yorkies impressions of the blood drawing procedure are her impressions. She has a right to share them and not be put down because you have not had the same experience. I don't know why you would talk about your local vet in such an unkind way but I wander if he would be offended by your attitude. My vet is my partner in my breeding program. He raises Whippets, has been a long time member of the dog fancy, showed confirmation for years and is presently involved in agility. He answers my call in the middle of the night and the wee hours of the morning. He has talked me through milking a pup down the birth canal and has raced to the office at 6:00am to save my Roxie's life. A good breeder's vet isn't easy to find and I do not change my health protocol without discussing it with him first. I will also discuss my findings on this subject with my mentor before any new tests are performed. She has 18 years experience in breeding and showing yorkies and has been generous enough to agree to share her years of experience with me. When someone has been kind enough to agree to invest in your life in that way you discuss these things with that partner. I have read the research several times and I understand it, I have also read research by Dr. Larry Snyder who disagrees about the best way of testing for this problem. I already posted about what he has to say for anyone who is interested. It is not unusual for even experts to disagree on the best way to proceed in solving a problem, I'm sure they will continue their research and who knows what the answer will be? Meanwhile I am allowed to have remaining questions and to seek answers from others that I respect without censorship from you or anyone else.

[Mom 2 B]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

the only ones I see that cause strife really are more from breeders than the non breeders but of course this is only my opinion LOL. I believe a few are very sincere and just want the best sound and healthy puppy when they get ready to buy one. I see more and more buyers getting more educated than breeders unfortunately. Again, my opinion only

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I am a "non-breeder" who has "been there, done that" with an epileptic Springer. In fact my husband just finished giving him a needle of diazapam (sp?) a little while ago for a seizure he had. Before anyone condemns me for being on the computer, he is fine and resting now. Unfortunately, we have "been there, done that" for eight years now!

I am not posting to cause "strife". I am posting because I want breeders AND non-breeders to do everything they can to educate themselves on the research that has been done and produce healthy puppies. I asked for a BAT on my puppy and luckily the breeder agreed. Had she not agreed, I would've kept looking.

I believe in doing my research and if that causes some "strife" then I don't want to deal with that breeder. I seriously doubt that someone would ask dozens of questions and post comments on here just to cause "strife". Just me butting in again.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Mom 2 B

I am a "non-breeder" who has "been there, done that" with an epileptic Springer. In fact my husband just finished giving him a needle of diazapam (sp?) a little while ago for a seizure he had. Before anyone condemns me for being on the computer, he is fine and resting now. Unfortunately, we have "been there, done that" for eight years now!

I am not posting to cause "strife". I am posting because I want breeders AND non-breeders to do everything they can to educate themselves on the research that has been done and produce healthy puppies. I asked for a BAT on my puppy and luckily the breeder agreed. Had she not agreed, I would've kept looking.

I believe in doing my research and if that causes some "strife" then I don't want to deal with that breeder. I seriously doubt that someone would ask dozens of questions and post comments on here just to cause "strife". Just me butting in again.

if you are commenting on what I said about strife, yes there are a few people that only post to stir up trouble or strife if you will and when you have been around awhile, you will learn exactly what I am talking about. There are a few people that it is the same o same o every time a topic like this comes up and woe be unto you if you disagree and are brave enough to post it. And as far as the 'been there done that comment I made, it was in reference to very experienced breeders who have had hands on experience and know first hand what they are talking about and offer their knowledge so that the rest of us can learn. BTW, I am sorry you have a sick puppy. i am done with this thread.

[bchgirl]

For those interested in working with their vets...here is a link which contains Dr. Tobias email addy. She won't respond to personal emails but will reply to vet inquires. Perhaps ask the source what method she would do...were it her dogs or puppies...

http://www.vet.utk.edu/faculty/tobias.shtml

[katelin]

WOW! YT and this thread in particular is like life in the fast lane. Slow Down!

I am probably what you would call a "hobby breeder". I am retired and this is my hobby along with raising my grandchildren. I love all of the breeding part of Yorkies and the raising of puppies. But you probably couldn't get me into a ring to show.

I just want to remind everyone that a breeder has to start somewhere. Most of us don't get the breedable show dogs in the beginning. The show dogs are sold on limited registration. Rather we try to find a really good dog to start our line. We try to be responsible about health and conformation and temperament. But we aren't perfect -- and neither are you!

Most people just want a lovable, healthy, fun Yorkie. And I, as a person who loves Yorkies and tries really hard to do her best, can give that to them. So stop putting us down, and INCLUDE us so that we can do better also.

BAT testing or not BAT testing -- you all know that LS could happen to anyone. You can "know" your line, you can test BAT, but still LS can show up unexpectedly -- 8 or 10 years down the line!

You want honesty? We have raised puppies for four years, owned 16 dogs at various times, and then out of the blue we had a puppy with LS. She was the biggest in the litter, she was as healthy as any we had ever raised, and at 14 months she got sick. After much testing, it was finally determined to be LS. We offered to take the puppy back, but who can part with it after over a year in the family. We refunded the money paid for the puppy, but that is a small amount compared to the cost of testing and potential surgery. She is doing well now on a strict diet and meds. But for how long?? Those are the questions that plague her forever owner as well as me.

And yes, I had discussed LS and other potential health concerns for Yorkies with the buyer -- but we had never had any of those problems! It is devastating to all of us.

Now for the worst of it. We just had a litter, but no serious concerns about them. However, the female that threw the LS pup had already been bred when we got the diagnosis. So here we are. As I said before its devastating.

So now we will have to disclose to every potential buyer of ANY of our puppies that we have had an LS puppy. And it will forever taint our reputation as breeders with some, if not most, people.

We are heartbroken. And we don't need to hear any of that snide, snobby, talk that is all too familiar in dog circles. Research! Know Your Line! Only Breed Show Dogs! I thought we did as much right as we could possibly do. I'm heartbroken.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by katelin

WOW! YT and this thread in particular is like life in the fast lane. Slow Down!

I am probably what you would call a "hobby breeder". I am retired and this is my hobby along with raising my grandchildren. I love all of the breeding part of Yorkies and the raising of puppies. But you probably couldn't get me into a ring to show.

I just want to remind everyone that a breeder has to start somewhere. Most of us don't get the breedable show dogs in the beginning. The show dogs are sold on limited registration. Rather we try to find a really good dog to start our line. We try to be responsible about health and conformation and temperament. But we aren't perfect -- and neither are you!

Most people just want a lovable, healthy, fun Yorkie. And I, as a person who loves Yorkies and tries really hard to do her best, can give that to them. So stop putting us down, and INCLUDE us so that we can do better also.

BAT testing or not BAT testing -- you all know that LS could happen to anyone. You can "know" your line, you can test BAT, but still LS can show up unexpectedly -- 8 or 10 years down the line!

You want honesty? We have raised puppies for four years, owned 16 dogs at various times, and then out of the blue we had a puppy with LS. She was the biggest in the litter, she was as healthy as any we had ever raised, and at 14 months she got sick. After much testing, it was finally determined to be LS. We offered to take the puppy back, but who can part with it after over a year in the family. We refunded the money paid for the puppy, but that is a small amount compared to the cost of testing and potential surgery. She is doing well now on a strict diet and meds. But for how long?? Those are the questions that plague her forever owner as well as me.

And yes, I had discussed LS and other potential health concerns for Yorkies with the buyer -- but we had never had any of those problems! It is devastating to all of us.

Now for the worst of it. We just had a litter, but no serious concerns about them. However, the female that threw the LS pup had already been bred when we got the diagnosis. So here we are. As I said before its devastating.

So now we will have to disclose to every potential buyer of ANY of our puppies that we have had an LS puppy. And it will forever taint our reputation as breeders with some, if not most, people.

We are heartbroken. And we don't need to hear any of that snide, snobby, talk that is all too familiar in dog circles. Research! Know Your Line! Only Breed Show Dogs! I thought we did as much right as we could possibly do. I'm heartbroken.

I'm so sorry hon You won't get any snide remark from me because it's sad to see this happen. You'll do the right thing because the first step is admitting it and changing it the next time. My prayers are with you and your doggies!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by katelin

WOW! YT and this thread in particular is like life in the fast lane. Slow Down!

I am probably what you would call a "hobby breeder". I am retired and this is my hobby along with raising my grandchildren. I love all of the breeding part of Yorkies and the raising of puppies. But you probably couldn't get me into a ring to show.

I just want to remind everyone that a breeder has to start somewhere. Most of us don't get the breedable show dogs in the beginning. The show dogs are sold on limited registration. Rather we try to find a really good dog to start our line. We try to be responsible about health and conformation and temperament. But we aren't perfect -- and neither are you!

Most people just want a lovable, healthy, fun Yorkie. And I, as a person who loves Yorkies and tries really hard to do her best, can give that to them. So stop putting us down, and INCLUDE us so that we can do better also.

BAT testing or not BAT testing -- you all know that LS could happen to anyone. You can "know" your line, you can test BAT, but still LS can show up unexpectedly -- 8 or 10 years down the line!

You want honesty? We have raised puppies for four years, owned 16 dogs at various times, and then out of the blue we had a puppy with LS. She was the biggest in the litter, she was as healthy as any we had ever raised, and at 14 months she got sick. After much testing, it was finally determined to be LS. We offered to take the puppy back, but who can part with it after over a year in the family. We refunded the money paid for the puppy, but that is a small amount compared to the cost of testing and potential surgery. She is doing well now on a strict diet and meds. But for how long?? Those are the questions that plague her forever owner as well as me.

And yes, I had discussed LS and other potential health concerns for Yorkies with the buyer -- but we had never had any of those problems! It is devastating to all of us.

Now for the worst of it. We just had a litter, but no serious concerns about them. However, the female that threw the LS pup had already been bred when we got the diagnosis. So here we are. As I said before its devastating.

So now we will have to disclose to every potential buyer of ANY of our puppies that we have had an LS puppy. And it will forever taint our reputation as breeders with some, if not most, people.

We are heartbroken. And we don't need to hear any of that snide, snobby, talk that is all too familiar in dog circles. Research! Know Your Line! Only Breed Show Dogs! I thought we did as much right as we could possibly do. I'm heartbroken.

I'm sorry about the puppy I've said this many times but even the best breeders will sometimes get a puppy with a health problem. Its what they do after that shows me whether they are ethical or not. Do they lie about it and keep breeding or do they admit it, figure out where the problem came from, and eliminate the problematic lines?