Bile Acid Testing

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

Pulling blood is invasive and cruel? Are you kidding me??? I have seen blood drawn on plenty of animals and have drawn blood myself. If you have someone that knows what they are doing, it's very quick and relatively painless. My gosh...more excuses

Okay, time out! That does not sound fair to me. Amazing yorkies is sharing her experience in this procedure. You are not a breeder, you have not had blood drawn from a puppy for this from her vet. You can't judge her and say more excuses when she is sharing her experience and her conclusions from it. As someone who has reservations about this test because of things that I have read ( and I don't believe that only one vet is perfectly correct in this) I am glad to hear other sides of this story and first hand experiences. I'm not even sure my vet would be willing to do a BAT if a blood panel result did not indicate that it was necessary, especially on a puppy. We are just hear discussing the different options and learning what we can about this threat to our breed and other small breeds. The experts can't even agree with the best way to head this threat off yet and I know that I have plenty of questions yet to be answered. So I will do the blood panel on my adults, talk to my vet about other options and continue to do the research. I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves. According to my research the BAT is not the end all answer at this point and other opinions are not excuses, they are valid opinions just like yours.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay, time out! That does not sound fair to me. Amazing yorkies is sharing her experience in this procedure. You are not a breeder, you have not had blood drawn from a puppy for this from her vet. You can't judge her and say more excuses when she is sharing her experience and her conclusions from it. As someone who has reservations about this test because of things that I have read ( and I don't believe that only one vet is perfectly correct in this) I am glad to hear other sides of this story and first hand experiences. I'm not even sure my vet would be willing to do a BAT if a blood panel result did not indicate that it was necessary, especially on a puppy. We are just hear discussing the different options and learning what we can about this threat to our breed and other small breeds. The experts can't even agree with the best way to head this threat off yet and I know that I have plenty of questions yet to be answered. So I will do the blood panel on my adults, talk to my vet about other options and continue to do the research. I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves. According to my research the BAT is not the end all answer at this point and other opinions are not excuses, they are valid opinions just like yours.

tami, I agree with you in your whole post. I test my adults, continue to research and would have no problem if the buyer wanted me to test my puppies. This Thread was started and the question asked of breeders.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay, time out! That does not sound fair to me. Amazing yorkies is sharing her experience in this procedure. You are not a breeder, you have not had blood drawn from a puppy for this from her vet. You can't judge her and say more excuses when she is sharing her experience and her conclusions from it. As someone who has reservations about this test because of things that I have read ( and I don't believe that only one vet is perfectly correct in this) I am glad to hear other sides of this story and first hand experiences. I'm not even sure my vet would be willing to do a BAT if a blood panel result did not indicate that it was necessary, especially on a puppy. We are just hear discussing the different options and learning what we can about this threat to our breed and other small breeds. The experts can't even agree with the best way to head this threat off yet and I know that I have plenty of questions yet to be answered. So I will do the blood panel on my adults, talk to my vet about other options and continue to do the research. I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves. According to my research the BAT is not the end all answer at this point and other opinions are not excuses, they are valid opinions just like yours.

I do agree it is one breeders experience and a time out is in order LOL....Tami, I'm glad to hear that you do alot of research and I wish more breeders did this, I'm talking about the hobby breeders. You and I are show breeders. I think show breeders do care about LS, well some do anyway...
I've had puppies BAT tested and it was painless and the fasting part was I just didn't give food after the night time feeding and took to vet early in the morning for the test and it wasn't cruel and painful. I feel you have to have a qualified vet and a vet you can trust and thank goodness I have a vet that specializes in toys.
Dr. Center and Dr. Tobias in "my" opinion are leaders and the best qualified in trying to do the best research regarding liver shunts and liver problems. With yorkies being in high demand and most breeders and I'm not talking the ones that are reputable are trying to keep up with supply and demand and that is determental to our breed. One good thing is the buying public is getting more educated. I get more calls now from those who go to AKC to the referral site and those that I talk to are wanting healthy puppies and are doing their homework. Most tell me they've done research and have been told not to buy out of the paper and online and for that I'm thankful. I also get calls that my vet has referred because my vet knows I'm reputable. I'm glad your mentor says do not advertise from the newspaper.
All we can do is do the best we can and hope and pray we've done enough on our end as good breeders to provide sound and healthy puppies.
I am a small show breeder and not a hobby breeder so I guess that's where my passion comes from. I don't contribute to the supply and demand.
This thread is educational and it's all about learning from it. We all are going to have differences of opinion and there is no need to get defensive or offended by it...I don't let it get to me if someone doesn't agree with me. All know by now my feelings and I get strong about it but those that know me knows that it's not my intentions to be ugly just educational
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Mom 2 B]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm glad I'm tiresome to you but I hope I educate others and inform future puppy owners I stand behind my breeding program and the testing I do to further improve my responsiblity to my breeding program. I'm glad I'm over the top in what I do.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay, time out! That does not sound fair to me. Amazing yorkies is sharing her experience in this procedure. You are not a breeder, you have not had blood drawn from a puppy for this from her vet. You can't judge her and say more excuses when she is sharing her experience and her conclusions from it. As someone who has reservations about this test because of things that I have read ( and I don't believe that only one vet is perfectly correct in this) I am glad to hear other sides of this story and first hand experiences. I'm not even sure my vet would be willing to do a BAT if a blood panel result did not indicate that it was necessary, especially on a puppy. We are just hear discussing the different options and learning what we can about this threat to our breed and other small breeds. The experts can't even agree with the best way to head this threat off yet and I know that I have plenty of questions yet to be answered. So I will do the blood panel on my adults, talk to my vet about other options and continue to do the research. I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves. According to my research the BAT is not the end all answer at this point and other opinions are not excuses, they are valid opinions just like yours.

Well said, Tami. This is a very informative threat and everyone should be able to voice their opinion without being slammed. We can all learn from others experiences. Considering all the breeders that are here on YT it is a shame that only a handful are willing to share their opinions and experiences. We will never know the severity of liver shunt and other genetic problems within the Yorkie breed unless breeders will be honest with themselves and others about problems that may exist in their lines.

[Brooklynn]

Yes, I also agree and wish breeders were more honest and honest with themselves about LS and other health issues within their breeding progams...
I actually don't see any slamming just strong differences of opinion. This is a very educational thread and it hasn't been heated in my opinion. Why get defensive if we are all here to learn and learn from each other?
I'm not offended if someone doesn't agree with me simply because it's their opinion and they are entitled to it

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Yes, I also agree and wish breeders were more honest and honest with themselves about LS and other health issues within their breeding progams...
I actually don't see any slamming just strong differences of opinion. This is a very educational thread and it hasn't been heated in my opinion. Why get defensive if we are all here to learn and learn from each other?
I'm not offended if someone doesn't agree with me simply because it's their opinion and they are entitled to it

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

AHHHHHHHHHHH! The voice of wisdom and experience. Donna your thoughts are much appreciated on here and your opinions highly valued. I have learned so much from you and other breeders like yourself. I will continue to take the advice of those that have 'been there and done that" over the advice of someone that has never whelped their first puppy and has no interest at all in breeding. keep up the good work. there have been many exceellant breeders on this thread that have given good advice and if it is getting a little heated, from what I have read, it is from those non breeders that so love telling the rest of us how to do it. yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but those opinions would be worth more if they were from a breeder. now, I am ducking under my chair!!!!!!

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay, time out! That does not sound fair to me. Amazing yorkies is sharing her experience in this procedure. You are not a breeder, you have not had blood drawn from a puppy for this from her vet. You can't judge her and say more excuses when she is sharing her experience and her conclusions from it. As someone who has reservations about this test because of things that I have read ( and I don't believe that only one vet is perfectly correct in this) I am glad to hear other sides of this story and first hand experiences. I'm not even sure my vet would be willing to do a BAT if a blood panel result did not indicate that it was necessary, especially on a puppy. We are just hear discussing the different options and learning what we can about this threat to our breed and other small breeds. The experts can't even agree with the best way to head this threat off yet and I know that I have plenty of questions yet to be answered. So I will do the blood panel on my adults, talk to my vet about other options and continue to do the research. I'd like to know more about the possible link between feeding very high protein foods and the incidences of liver problems. Because it is a problem across the board with small breeds it makes me wonder if we are bringing some of it on ourselves. According to my research the BAT is not the end all answer at this point and other opinions are not excuses, they are valid opinions just like yours.

I don't know how someone can have a valid opinion that contradicts cold hard science and years of scientific research. I doubt my local vet is as knowledgeable as Dr. Center on the issue of liver shunt. Why then wasn't he invited to speak at the liver shunt seminar at the Specialty in New York? Have you read and understood the research done by Dr. Tobias and Dr. Center? I had to read it a few times before I could understand it.

People dock puppies tails for cosmetic purposes and then say a blood draw for health screening is horrific. I don't get that.

What research is telling you that BAT is not the best testing available for detecting MVD/liver shunt in young Yorkies? I really want to know in case I've been mislead by Dr. Center.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

AHHHHHHHHHHH! The voice of wisdom and experience. Donna your thoughts are much appreciated on here and your opinions highly valued. I have learned so much from you and other breeders like yourself. I will continue to take the advice of those that have 'been there and done that" over the advice of someone that has never whelped their first puppy and has no interest at all in breeding. keep up the good work. there have been many exceellant breeders on this thread that have given good advice and if it is getting a little heated, from what I have read, it is from those non breeders that so love telling the rest of us how to do it. yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but those opinions would be worth more if they were from a breeder. now, I am ducking under my chair!!!!!!

Thank you for your nice comments it's greatly appreicated!! But in defense of the non breeders, they might not be a breeder but are within the buying public and also has the right to question us breeders I for one welcome the questions from non breeders or those just getting started This is where we can educate the non breeders and breeders alike I hope that makes sense

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[scoobiedooiscoo]

i feel that if a breeder does bat's or protien c tests on the adults and also lets the buyer know that ls and mvd are problems in the breed and make sure they help to educate the buyer before taking the puppy home. i would recomed that the buyer have bats done at what ever age the breeder decides on. really you could even raise your price by 50 bucks and tell the buyer when they have the test done and reports are sent back to you, you could then send the money bk to the buyer. that way the buyer knows there is a problem with the breed even if the breeder has never had a problem. and if one or 2 show up then its up to the breeder to decide what to do.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

AHHHHHHHHHHH! The voice of wisdom and experience. Donna your thoughts are much appreciated on here and your opinions highly valued. I have learned so much from you and other breeders like yourself. I will continue to take the advice of those that have 'been there and done that" over the advice of someone that has never whelped their first puppy and has no interest at all in breeding. keep up the good work. there have been many exceellant breeders on this thread that have given good advice and if it is getting a little heated, from what I have read, it is from those non breeders that so love telling the rest of us how to do it. yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but those opinions would be worth more if they were from a breeder. now, I am ducking under my chair!!!!!!

People who purchase LS puppies probably have learned more about livershunt than a breeder who never had it -- and it's more then they ever wanted to know!

Since the incidence of LS in Yorkies in increasing, the "been there done that" breeders have not been able to control this problem and if things continue in the same way, I don't believe that LS is going to miraculously disappear. Here we have someone who has made it her life's work trying to help and people look for ways to disregard what she has found for us. She goes out of her way to help breeders, rather than blame them for the problem. I wonder if she gets disgusted -- She has many LS dogs living on her premises.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by blitz

People who purchase LS puppies probably have learned more about livershunt than a breeder who never had it -- and it's more then they ever wanted to know!

Since the incidence of LS in Yorkies in increasing, the "been there done that" breeders have not been able to control this problem and if things continue in the same way, I don't believe that LS is going to miraculously disappear. Here we have someone who has made it her life's work trying to help and people look for ways to disregard what she has found for us. She goes out of her way to help breeders, rather than blame them for the problem. I wonder if she gets disgusted -- She has many LS dogs living on her premises.

I agree!!!! I have studied LS for my own breeding program and going to start with the other genetic health issues within our breed. I hope Dr. Center and Dr. Tobias get continued support in their research and find that genetic marker! I'm sure it's hard and frustrating for her to have LS babies!

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Thank you for your nice comments it's greatly appreicated!! But in defense of the non breeders, they might not be a breeder but are within the buying public and also has the right to question us breeders I for one welcome the questions from non breeders or those just getting started This is where we can educate the non breeders and breeders alike I hope that makes sense

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

you are right and I also welcome the questions if they are sincere and not just trying to cause strife.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by blitz

People who purchase LS puppies probably have learned more about livershunt than a breeder who never had it -- and it's more then they ever wanted to know!

Since the incidence of LS in Yorkies in increasing, the "been there done that" breeders have not been able to control this problem and if things continue in the same way, I don't believe that LS is going to miraculously disappear. Here we have someone who has made it her life's work trying to help and people look for ways to disregard what she has found for us. She goes out of her way to help breeders, rather than blame them for the problem. I wonder if she gets disgusted -- She has many LS dogs living on her premises.

believe me, I wasn't talking about the doctors that have done this research. in fact, I have studied everything that has been posted in this thread over and over long before this question was ever posed to the breeders here on this site.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

you are right and I also welcome the questions if they are sincere and not just trying to cause strife.

the only ones I see that cause strife really are more from breeders than the non breeders but of course this is only my opinion LOL. I believe a few are very sincere and just want the best sound and healthy puppy when they get ready to buy one. I see more and more buyers getting more educated than breeders unfortunately. Again, my opinion only

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers