Bile Acid Testing

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold my gals for a bit longer anyway to see if I might want to add them to my breeding program. I can't tell you how many calls I receive for female teacups! I need to just record the answer and let it play! As far as the money goes you know as well as I do that showing eats up all the cash. I can't bring Preston out until I can finish Connor or put him with a handler, I can't put Connor with a handler until I sell a puppy or two and I am holding 2 pups for the ring at present so I'm a little stuck here. I care about the breed and I am an ethical breeder and a true yorkie lover and an exuberant new exhibitor but I must admit that all of this has me feeling totally overwhelmed. How many tests are we to be responsible for and how long are we to hold onto these pups and what is coming around the corner next?

If I was a breeder and someone called asking for a teacup, they sure wouldn't be getting one of my puppies. Anyone asking for a teacup is uneducated and needs to research the breed more before buying a puppy. Even a small amount of research would tell them there is no such thing as a teacup. Maybe you should have a waiting list started before you consider having a litter if they are that hard to place?

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

But these are not kids and some people shouldn't breed either and I'd say the same thing to certain human breedings....
You don't have to do it "my" way but I do call it like it is, like it or not...
That's why we have a problem with LS in our breed because "some" people don't care and it will continue that way unfortunately. But as I see it if those that are breeding shunts and continue knowingly then I feel sorry for those puppies and new puppy owners. And if anyone wants to try and breed healthy pups then I see no reason to NOT test. If it scares them away then their intentions aren't to breed ethically or they would stay and continue to learn. Truth is truth no way around it No I don't have a waiting list because I do not have but one litter a year and do not have that many puppies available. I love my small scale breeding program because I can make sure I do things the right way with my own breeding and showing program
I'm in no way trying to be ugly just stating if any breeder is in this to better the breed then I see no reason not to test. JMHO....

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

There are way more unethical breeders out there...true ethical breeders are few and far between. I just wish people would be honest..honest with themselves and honest with others.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by bjh

I understand what you are saying but I personally think it is more reasonably to try to get people to do basic blood panels on puppies and adults and then go from there. I just think that is a reasonable starting point that most breeders might be comfortable with. From what I am hearing even vets think the first step should be a blood panel and only do a BAT if the blood panel is questionable. I know you are not trying to be ugly, you have very strong convictions but people that don't know you might get offended. I think many breeders just accept the fact that birth defects are a part of life and just hope it won't happen to them. Kind of like playing Russian Roulette.

If you are going to do a full blood panel, why not go ahead an do a BAT too? A BAT is not that much more expensive. Liver problems might not show up on a blood panel..and ALT levels can be off for reasons other than liver shunt. I just don't get all the excuses breeders are giving

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold .

If you're being selective about your bloodlines, selective about where your puppies go, honest with your customers about LS and how to look for it, and hold the AKC papers for proof of spay/neuter you're doing plenty. Some of these people on her think BAT solves the problem. They don't get that the test only catches the diseased animals and not the carriers. Forget it, it's like talking to the wall...

got that right Both pedigree research and testing is important!

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

OMG some of you people are tiresome. My adults are from known lines and have the usual blood panels periodically, usually prior to dental work. I don't test my puppies but inform the buyers about shunt, what to look for, testing options, etc. All are sold without breeding rights and do not receive AKC papers without proof of spay/neuter. I suppose some creep byb could possibly con me out of one of my puppies and "register" it through some fake registry and maybe, possibly, in your dreams, go on to produce shunt puppies....

What's tiresome is that breeders won't do necessary (yes NECESSARY) testing when they know they should. Pedigree research is GREAT and VERY important, but you should also be health screening each of your dogs. They go hand in hand. I wouldn't buy from a breeder that didn't know their lines or health screened.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

From many of the things that I read today high bile acids don't necessarily mean a liver shunt but is indicative of liver trouble. Poor functioning can be caused by other sources as well and more testing would be in order. If there are no symptoms because the ammonia is being adequately dealt with without the aid of a special diet or medication can you really say that the dog has a problem? How many of God's living creatures are not perfect but no one knows it because they function perfectly just as they are? If we start testing for more things how many more surprises will we come across? It makes me wonder if the incidence of LS is really up that much or if the increase in testing is just bringing it out.

A BAT doesn't confirm a shunt but it alerts to a problem. If the BAT is worrisome, other tests can be explored to confirm or rule out a shunt. A BAT is just the best place to start

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

My breeding adults are tested.
My Vet always gives a test with them fasting from 8 pm the night before. At 8 am (or when they get to it : ) they pull the 1st blood, then they feed them, and retest 2 hours later. If you have ever seen how they pull blood, you would not want to do it to every puppy! It is invasive, it is scary, it is cruel! IMO
My Vet also tells me that if the blood is drawn wrong, it would throw off the test...
I've had several people contact me for a puppy, that have had bad experiences with LS with previous breeders and they ask for a test. I have no problem testing for their peace of mind. I will do testing upon request, but will not put every puppy through that!
If you worry about LS then just ask for a BAT. A good breeder should have no problem getting that done for you.

Pulling blood is invasive and cruel? Are you kidding me??? I have seen blood drawn on plenty of animals and have drawn blood myself. If you have someone that knows what they are doing, it's very quick and relatively painless. My gosh...more excuses

[Amazing Yorkies]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

Pulling blood is invasive and cruel? Are you kidding me??? I have seen blood drawn on plenty of animals and have drawn blood myself. If you have someone that knows what they are doing, it's very quick and relatively painless. My gosh...more excuses

Ok, I take the pup in, watch as 2 techs hold down the pup so it can't move. A 3rd tech holds the head up and back as the Vet puts an angled needle to the jugular. The pup is terrified, Vet says don't let 'em move, and usually an "Oh Oh" comes from one of them, and I stand there in shock that a pup had to be handled that way... Yes cruel! .. and we get to do this all over again in 2 hours..

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Ok, I take the pup in, watch as 2 techs hold down the pup so it can't move. A 3rd tech holds the head up and back as the Vet puts an angled needle to the jugular. The pup is terrified, Vet says don't let 'em move, and usually an "Oh Oh" comes from one of them, and I stand there in shock that a pup had to be handled that way... Yes cruel! .. and we get to do this all over again in 2 hours..

it's in no way cruel. I watched Lacy have her blood drawn from her jugular just a few months ago. Tech held her head up, vet drew the blood in just a couple seconds...very quick and painless. The puppies will be fine... I've had my blood drawn multiple times. The stick doesn't feel great but the pain is minimal and quick. What's cruel is producing a LS puppy because parents weren't screened..or sending home a LS puppy to a home when it could have been tested prior

[Woogie Man]

I don't think that Deb and BJH are worthy of the tar and feather brush by their comments. This has been, for the most part, a very informative thread with an honest exchange of various views. I find it educational and am grateful for their participation in the discussion. I hope it continues as this is a worrisome topic for all and any sharing of info and thoughts can only help.

[Amazing Yorkies]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

it's in no way cruel. I watched Lacy have her blood drawn from her jugular just a few months ago. Tech held her head up, vet drew the blood in just a couple seconds...very quick and painless. The puppies will be fine... I've had my blood drawn multiple times. The stick doesn't feel great but the pain is minimal and quick. What's cruel is producing a LS puppy because parents weren't screened..or sending home a LS puppy to a home when it could have been tested prior

Oh I agree breeding adults should be screened, and mine are. An older Yorkie tends to take it better than a puppy.
The fasting 12 or more hours was terrible too. I would apt to do more testing without the fasting.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Oh I agree breeding adults should be screened, and mine are. An older Yorkie tends to take it better than a puppy.
The fasting 12 or more hours was terrible too. I would apt to do more testing without the fasting.

fasting is no longer required. I would just skip the morning meal and have the test done first thing in the morning

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

OMG some of you people are tiresome. My adults are from known lines and have the usual blood panels periodically, usually prior to dental work. I don't test my puppies but inform the buyers about shunt, what to look for, testing options, etc. All are sold without breeding rights and do not receive AKC papers without proof of spay/neuter. I suppose some creep byb could possibly con me out of one of my puppies and "register" it through some fake registry and maybe, possibly, in your dreams, go on to produce shunt puppies....

I'm glad I'm tiresome to you but I hope I educate others and inform future puppy owners I stand behind my breeding program and the testing I do to further improve my responsiblity to my breeding program. I'm glad I'm over the top in what I do.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Thanks Donna, that does make me feel a bit better. I am trying so hard! I have spent the entire day researching now so I have a dirty house. I do have clean dogs since I did my grooming yesterday. We leave very early Friday morn for shows all weekend in NC and tomorrow it's back to work so I guess I'll have to do housework tonight. I do get like a dog with a bone!

I know you are trying hard! That's why I think you are doing the right thing! I have dog shows all month LOL....you're ahead of me on grooming LOL...I need to do that this week since I'm off and clean house! Just some others get more defensive and don't want to learn and you do that's the huge difference Keep up the good work and the research That's the key

Donna

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

If I was a breeder and someone called asking for a teacup, they sure wouldn't be getting one of my puppies. Anyone asking for a teacup is uneducated and needs to research the breed more before buying a puppy. Even a small amount of research would tell them there is no such thing as a teacup. Maybe you should have a waiting list started before you consider having a litter if they are that hard to place?

Oh I've had waiting lists and I've found that people are impatient. They don't want to wait! Usually by the time you call to tell them that you have pups available ( when they are 8 weeks old and have been evaluated) they have already purchased one or have decided to do something else. I have family members lined up for future retired females but the market is so flooded with puppies right now that it is difficult for a new show breeder. I do not advertise nor do I sell teacups, in fact my mentor doesn't want me to advertise in the paper at all.