Bile Acid Testing

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by blitz

It seems that the research has ruled out what it isn't, as far as it's mode of inheritance. It hasn't turned out to be a simple recessive or dominant trait. If it had been breeders would have figured it out a long time ago. I'm sure nobody is happy with the advice not to line breed but we can't kill the messenger. The breeders who produce LS puppies are the one's who are in the best position to help. I certainly wouldn't advertise to the world if I produced an LS puppy but I would definately forward all the information to Sharon Center and she keeps all this information confidential.

Great post. Dr. Center is excellant. She is very willing to help the breeders and work with them. She called my home personally and wants me to stay in touch with her. I highly recommend her.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Mayhaps the porto vein does not entirely shut down in alot of small breeds but simply causes no problems for them in most cases?

I have had some thoughts on this but have never heard it discussed before.....it seems to me that the porto vein could be a 'weak spot' going into the liver. Could it be possible that vaccinations could be taxing the liver and causing the porto vein to open more after vaccinations? I had read that vaccinations put much stress on the liver and actually cause pressure to build up in the liver. People are vaccinating for hepatitis and leptospirosis and those are infectious diseases of the liver and kidneys. How do we know that the vaccinations are not contributing to the problem. I know of one liver shunt puppy, 4 years ago, that was was growing normally and the puppy had 3 sets of shots, all including the lepto (the owner at that time was not aware of the danger of the lepto shot), after 14 weeks the puppy basically quit growing and at 6 months she was diagnosed with liver shunt. I know in humans that hepatitis can cause MVD. We know that the bordetella vaccine can actually cause kennel cough so whos to say these other vaccines are not contributing to liver shunt and MVD in dogs. I know it sounds far fetched but it is just something to think about.

[Ladyhawk]

I would love to know if there is more involved than just genetics as well. Since other breeds are not being tested if not symptomatic I wonder if yorkies are truly 36 times more likely to get LS than other breeds. It really seems overwhelming and rather frightening for our precious breed. With the feed recalls out of China it makes you wonder if nutrician could even be a contributing factor in this as it is in pancreatitis.

[Mom 2 B]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and have already posted once but feel the need to comment again.

WHY NOT TEST? What is the big deal about testing a puppy before it goes to it's forever home? If it's the cost, charge extra for the pup. I paid to have my pup tested. Anyone that has looked into this at all knows "I've never had one before" doesn't mean that a breeder can't have one.

As far as testing the parents and having the new owner have the puppy tested, think of the potential heartache you are causing. Who wants to send their brand new puppy back to the breeder and not every breeder is going to offer to pay for any costs associated with this illness.

The Yorkie Rescue site says right on their front page, do not buy a dog that has not had a bile acid test done. A former Yorkie breeder I talked to told me not to buy a pup that had not been tested.

I've seen just about everything on different breeder's site: home raised, bio sensor tests, pee pad trained, leash trained, etc. BUT possibly one of the most important issues, LS, no mention of being tested. This issue should not be treated like some dirty little secret. It will never be fixed if every breeder that has a liver shunt dog hides it.

Sorry to go on and on but I feel very strongly that puppies should be tested before leaving for their forever homes. If someone gets a LS puppy that can't afford it or doesn't know how to deal with it, how long is forever going to be?

[katelin]

I'm not a scientist by any means, but my husband is and has worked with genetics some in his work. We both read the literature and what I took away from it was that LS is probably caused by a combination of genes, which is why it is so hard to determine. Both the male and the female contribute to the genetic makeup of the puppy. It probably takes two or three (or more) of the right genes "turned on" to cause LS. So the potential for LS may be there in one or both dogs, but it has to be the right combination to make it actually happen. Hopefully science will find a way to predict LS with more accuracy.

If this isn't your understanding, or you have more information, I'd like to hear about it. This is something all breeders should be concerned about. I just don't think we can accurately predict it yet.

[Ladyhawk]

Okay so than the next logical question would be (I really hate to ask this one) what do we do with the pups that test positive though they show no symptoms of LS whatsoever? While we wait for them to figure out what is causing this do we just stop breeding? If it is as prolific as they are making it sound and a bitch and stud that is free of LS can produce a LS pup and all including siblings should no longer be bred that would elliminate your breeding stock in a short amount of time and I can't show a dog that has been altered. It's almost as scary as someone saying if your dog has at least a grade 1 Lp it should not be sold or bred. We would be truly hard pressed to find a yorkie to breed or show because the problem of LP is so prolific in this breed. Maybe I should switch to miniature schnauzers, they're awfully cute.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Mom 2 B

WHY NOT TEST? What is the big deal about testing a puppy before it goes to it's forever home? If it's the cost, charge extra for the pup. I paid to have my pup tested. Anyone that has looked into this at all knows "I've never had one before" doesn't mean that a breeder can't have one.

I certainly understand what you are saying and in an ideal world that might be how in should be done. I have read that BATs should not be done before 16 weeks. Most breeders are not willing to keep the puppies that long, especially those breeding for the pet market. Most people want a cute little puppy and not one that is already half grown. I really think it is unrealistic to think every breeder should do BAT's on every puppy. I really feel that a blood panel is sufficient but that is just my opinion. Breeders and puppy buyers should both educate themselves on all health issues that could arise when buying a puppy. I would not hesitate in buying a Yorkie from a reputable breeder that was not BAT tested because I know there would be a guarantee and I would know that is something I should do myself.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I would love to know if there is more involved than just genetics as well. Since other breeds are not being tested if not symptomatic I wonder if yorkies are truly 36 times more likely to get LS than other breeds. It really seems overwhelming and rather frightening for our precious breed. With the feed recalls out of China it makes you wonder if nutrician could even be a contributing factor in this as it is in pancreatitis.

Dr. Center recommends that all puppies from highly affected breeds be tested before going to their new homes, not just Yorkies. This is a direct quote form Dr. Center's handout, page 22:

Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others).

It was Dr. Tobias' study, Angel Fund, that found through testing that Yorkies are thirty-six times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by bjh

I certainly understand what you are saying and in an ideal world that might be how in should be done. I have read that BATs should not be done before 16 weeks. Most breeders are not willing to keep the puppies that long, especially those breeding for the pet market. Most people want a cute little puppy and not one that is already half grown. I really think it is unrealistic to think every breeder should do BAT's on every puppy. I really feel that a blood panel is sufficient but that is just my opinion. Breeders and puppy buyers should both educate themselves on all health issues that could arise when buying a puppy. I would not hesitate in buying a Yorkie from a reputable breeder that was not BAT tested because I know there would be a guarantee and I would know that is something I should do myself.

Thank you so much, bjh, for this post. BAT is nice, but not helping much to stop spread of disease. I do my part in controlling spread by requiring spay/neuter contracts on my puppies. Over the past weekend I carefully explained liver shunt to my customers, gave them 5 days to get BATs if they want, with offer to buy back any puppy that tests positive for shunt plus reinburse the testing fee. They were impressed that I explained the perils of LS but nobody was interested in bothering their puppy with BAT; not worth the trouble they felt. These are highly educated people who did some research before setting out to buy a puppy...

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Thank you so much, bjh, for this post. BAT is nice, but not helping much to stop spread of disease. I do my part in controlling spread by requiring spay/neuter contracts on my puppies. Over the past weekend I carefully explained liver shunt to my customers, gave them 5 days to get BATs if they want, with offer to buy back any puppy that tests positive for shunt plus reinburse the testing fee. They were impressed that I explained the perils of LS but nobody was interested in bothering their puppy with BAT; not worth the trouble they felt. These are highly educated people who did some research before setting out to buy a puppy...

This sounds more feasible to me than to try to hold the pups until they are 16 weeks old and testing them yourself. Those I am not holding back for show potential are sold on spay/nueter contract. Those that I am holding stay with me until they are at least 6 months old which gives me time to have them tested for elevated Bile Acids as well as having all the other tests and evaluations that need to be done on them. Trying to eliminate LS by testing and than altering all of the dogs that either produce a pup that test positive or test positive themselves is a bit overwhelming to me, kinda like slaying a dragon. If it is polygenetic than what is the chance of the four genetic components coming together again to cause the same problem and are there any none genetic issues that are contributing to the problem? There are so many questions yet to be answered!

[Brooklynn]

To be honest what's the difference in placing a 12 week old puppy vs. a 16 week old puppy? Breeders want to place them that bad or for the money? I've had NO problems placing a puppy at even 7 to 8 months old. I have a 9 month old I'm showing and I could place her into a pet home right now. If you are a responsible breeder why not test before placing? If you care about the breed and doing it ethically I see no reason NOT to TEST! JMHO

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Mom 2 B]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

To be honest what's the difference in placing a 12 week old puppy vs. a 16 week old puppy? Breeders want to place them that bad or for the money? I've had NO problems placing a puppy at even 7 to 8 months old. I have a 9 month old I'm showing and I could place her into a pet home right now. If you are a responsible breeder why not test before placing? If you care about the breed and doing it ethically I see no reason NOT to TEST! JMHO

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Thank you!!!!

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

To be honest what's the difference in placing a 12 week old puppy vs. a 16 week old puppy? Breeders want to place them that bad or for the money? I've had NO problems placing a puppy at even 7 to 8 months old. I have a 9 month old I'm showing and I could place her into a pet home right now. If you are a responsible breeder why not test before placing? If you care about the breed and doing it ethically I see no reason NOT to TEST! JMHO

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold my gals for a bit longer anyway to see if I might want to add them to my breeding program. I can't tell you how many calls I receive for female teacups! I need to just record the answer and let it play! As far as the money goes you know as well as I do that showing eats up all the cash. I can't bring Preston out until I can finish Connor or put him with a handler, I can't put Connor with a handler until I sell a puppy or two and I am holding 2 pups for the ring at present so I'm a little stuck here. I care about the breed and I am an ethical breeder and a true yorkie lover and an exuberant new exhibitor but I must admit that all of this has me feeling totally overwhelmed. How many tests are we to be responsible for and how long are we to hold onto these pups and what is coming around the corner next?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm glad it's easy to place them in Texas but it's getting tough here in Va. and I know it's really hard in Indiana. People around her want them tiny and female. Since I breed for show I don't have tiny and will often hold my gals for a bit longer anyway to see if I might want to add them to my breeding program. I can't tell you how many calls I receive for female teacups! I need to just record the answer and let it play! As far as the money goes you know as well as I do that showing eats up all the cash. I can't bring Preston out until I can finish Connor or put him with a handler, I can't put Connor with a handler until I sell a puppy or two and I am holding 2 pups for the ring at present so I'm a little stuck here. I care about the breed and I am an ethical breeder and a true yorkie lover and an exuberant new exhibitor but I must admit that all of this has me feeling totally overwhelmed. How many tests are we to be responsible for and how long are we to hold onto these pups and what is coming around the corner next?

I totally understand truely I do but doing a BAT test is something to me is just very important and shouldn't be skipped. It is all very overwhelming but I just can't risk a new puppy owner maybe getting a shunt puppy. I know it's hard and yes there is no genetic marker yet but having a BAT test will at least give a peace of mind of some sorts...you really as a breeder wouldn't want to take that chance. When you enter into this you know the risks and do all that you can to ensure the best healthy pups.
Yes, it's VERY expensive to keep them but if it's truely what you want to do then I believe it's a must. That's why I don't breed but one litter a year. That way I have time to show and finish one before the next one comes about. We as breeders are responsible for any test that needs to be done to ensure a healthy puppy IMO. Hang in there!!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I totally understand truely I do but doing a BAT test is something to me is just very important and shouldn't be skipped. It is all very overwhelming but I just can't risk a new puppy owner maybe getting a shunt puppy. I know it's hard and yes there is no genetic marker yet but having a BAT test will at least give a peace of mind of some sorts...you really as a breeder wouldn't want to take that chance. When you enter into this you know the risks and do all that you can to ensure the best healthy pups.
Yes, it's VERY expensive to keep them but if it's truely what you want to do then I believe it's a must. That's why I don't breed but one litter a year. That way I have time to show and finish one before the next one comes about. We as breeders are responsible for any test that needs to be done to ensure a healthy puppy IMO. Hang in there!!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I have dreamt of doing this most of my life but the truth is between the economy, the backyard breeders, and now the health issues I just don't know about hanging in there. Maybe Wolperts right, I should have started 20 years ago instead of having kids because trying to be a member of the dogfancy is no party now.