Bile Acid Testing

[bchgirl]

Liver shunt has shown up with alarming frequency in biewers. Another forum I belong to... has discussed it in detail including the pedigrees these puppies have come from. I think the opinion is....biewer breeders think the information should be out there...vs burying their heads in the sand and pretending it'll all go away.

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

I suppose it could be done if one wanted to post a request for info about a particular dog or line. For example, I'd love information about Reveille...

My request for info about Reveille has nothing to do with my shunt research. I'm interested in a dog from that line and am asking for info--pedigree and otherwise--about that breeder. I have no knowledge of shunt in that line--just asked the question in the wrong forum, I guess. Thanks.

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Liver shunt has shown up with alarming frequency in biewers. Another forum I belong to... has discussed it in detail including the pedigrees these puppies have come from. I think the opinion is....biewer breeders think the information should be out there...vs burying their heads in the sand and pretending it'll all go away.

I believe more can be accomplished with openness, but I'm often in the monority with my opinions...As for shunt in Biewers, aren't they an offshoot of the Yorkshire Terrier---this research could really lead somewhere....

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

My request for info about Reveille has nothing to do with my shunt research. I'm interested in a dog from that line and am asking for info--pedigree and otherwise--about that breeder. I have no knowledge of shunt in that line--just asked the question in the wrong forum, I guess. Thanks.

Start a new thread with that in the title. I'm sure it will just get lost on in this thread

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

I believe more can be accomplished with openness, but I'm often in the monority with my opinions...As for shunt in Biewers, aren't they an offshoot of the Yorkshire Terrier---this research could really lead somewhere....

Biewers came from a breeding to two standard colored yorkies that resulted in tri-colored puppies. The people who orginally breed them...continued and developed the standard for biewers. The dogs' lines go back to Germany. Really if you think about it...one would think essentially every biewer would be related to those two dogs...now wouldn't they? I would think since the gene pool is much smaller....you're right...if researched might very well find some answers.



I will postively not purchase a biewer puppy that has not been tested.

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I won't subject my dogs to a test where there is no indication that it is needed. If the ALT levels came back elevated, there was a history of it in my line, or one of my dogs threw a pup that was diagnosed with LS than there would be a need. I would guess that most responcible breeders do a blood panel and than would proceed from there if there is any indication that more testing is needed.

I was told by my breeder that she has had no LS in her lines but my dog (who did not show symptoms for 1 1/2 years and who even cornell didn't think he had it based on BLOOD panel and the looks of him) has multiple external ones. So it can pop up even in health lines. ...and yes vets says he was born with it.

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

As a future breeder, and long time pet owner, I do see the need and responsibility for tests to ensure the dogs being bred are the healthiest possible. We went through almost 13 years of medical intervention with our first Yorkie, he had good days and bad, it was expensive and who knows what would have happened to him if we had not bought him. If his breeder would have done the proper tests on his parents maybe the breeding would never have taken place, granted, we wouldn't have had our Boog dog but it would have stopped a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering on both sides. Boog came from a litter of 5 but who knows how many other litters there were...where did those puppies end up and what did they have to go through in their lives? Were they given the advantage and benefit of a good and loving home that could afford their medical care or were those needs ignored? Don't get me wrong, I never complained about the cost of his care in all of those years but I sure did wish things were different for him.

As a future breeder I do plan to do whatever testing I need to do to ensure that my dogs are healthy enough for breeding, and it will give me and my future puppy owners peace of mind. I could not, in good conscience, blindly breed because I 'thought' everything was o.k...I need proof.

You sound awesome. How can we get a dog from you? :-) Bile acid test even healthy dogs.

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Those are symptoms of liver shunt but microvascular dysplasia (small shunting throughout the liver) can be asymptomatic and these dogs shouldn't be bred. So, it is very common for there to be no symptoms with MVD. And, one dog I know of wasn't diagnosed with a liver shunt until age 8, so they don't always show symptoms right away.

I think most Yorkie bloodlines are affected, so there is no way to be completely sure that you aren't breeding a carrier of LS but you have a better chance if the parent doesn't have it.

Yes, you do have to study bloodlines and that is very important but what if a breeding dog had asymptomatic MVD and passed this on to their puppies because the breeder didn't bile acid test? It could have been prevented but wasn't which isn't fair to the new owners.

And multiple EXTERNAL shunting can also show no signs and be born with it. The vets and surgeons I met said they are seeing more and more of this and concluding that it is genetic.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I think most Yorkie bloodlines are affected, so there is no way to be completely sure that you aren't breeding a carrier of LS but you have a better chance if the parent doesn't have it.

Yes, you do have to study bloodlines and that is very important but what if a breeding dog had asymptomatic MVD and passed this on to their puppies because the breeder didn't bile acid test? It could have been prevented but wasn't which isn't fair to the new owners.

I agree with you on the testing but it is has turned out to be very complicated. You could breed two liver shunt parents and get normal puppies. You could breed normal parents, with normal bile acids and get liver shunt puppies.

I would not buy a puppy that didn't have normal bile acids and with the internet, I hope more and more puppy buyers are becoming educated enough to protect themselves from this heartbreak and not be swayed by breeders who "never ever had a liver shunt" because that means nothing.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by blitz

I agree with you on the testing but it is has turned out to be very complicated. You could breed two liver shunt parents and get normal puppies. You could breed normal parents, with normal bile acids and get liver shunt puppies.

I would not buy a puppy that didn't have normal bile acids and with the internet, I hope more and more puppy buyers are becoming educated enough to protect themselves from this heartbreak and not be swayed by breeders who "never ever had a liver shunt" because that means nothing.

So now it just sounds impossible! If the parents don't have any signs of LS than you want all the pups to be held until they are 4 months old so that they can be tested as well before we try to find them forever homes? It kinda sounds like having every American tested for heart disease because it is so prevelant whether they have symptoms or history. Living beings are just so complex that just because something is a bit different does not mean that it is wrong. Could it be that we are finding liver shunt in yorkies more because we are testing them more than any other breed? Mayhaps the porto vein does not entirely shut down in alot of small breeds but simply causes no problems for them in most cases?

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

So now it just sounds impossible! If the parents don't have any signs of LS than you want all the pups to be held until they are 4 months old so that they can be tested as well before we try to find them forever homes? It kinda sounds like having every American tested for heart disease because it is so prevelant whether they have symptoms or history. Living beings are just so complex that just because something is a bit different does not mean that it is wrong. Could it be that we are finding liver shunt in yorkies more because we are testing them more than any other breed? Mayhaps the porto vein does not entirely shut down in alot of small breeds but simply causes no problems for them in most cases?

I've met some breeders (through all of this) who just bile acid test the parents and encourage their buyers to bile acid test their puppies once they get them home. I've met
3-4 breeders who keep small breeding programs and keep and test the puppies before they go. My breeder kept mine for 15 weeks? I should have tested mine but I would have kept him anyways. He is the best dog.
At least you can say to potential buyers, I tested the parents before using them. Yes, you can get LS from normal parents, but at least it is some proactive way of doing something. If a dog has slight MVD, you really don't want to be breeding them anyways. One friend of mine was going to breed her cocker spaniel and the cocker spaniel had a problem. Almost died. Come to find out...she had LS. Agility dog. 3 years old. Never a sign. Even the vet (regarding problems with pregnancy) did not think it was LS. She feels that if she had tested, she could have prevented her dog from going through the trauma of a bad pregnancy and othe rproblems that followed.
It is a tough call and I don't envy what breeders have to go through the more I find out.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

So now it just sounds impossible!

It is very complex. That's why all breeders need to really understand everything that the researchers have found out and make this a top priority.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

If the parents don't have any signs of LS than you want all the pups to be held until they are 4 months old so that they can be tested as well before we try to find them forever homes?

The puppies do not have to be 4 months old to be tested. If a puppy tested at 11 weeks came back abnormal, then yes, I would hold it and retest but an 11 week old puppy should not have high bile acids either. Would you rather have sold it at 12 weeks and have the poor owner struggle to find out what is wrong with it? Many breeders say that they have never seen it but many owners say that they got their dogs from top show kennels.

It seems that bile acid testing will not rule out the carriers but it will clear the puppies, unless you get a false negative... In that case, everything possible was done on the breeder's part. Now, if the puppies test positive, then you have an idea that one or both of the parents are carriers and you have some good information for your breeding program.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

It kinda sounds like having every American tested for heart disease because it is so prevelant whether they have symptoms or history. Living beings are just so complex that just because something is a bit different does not mean that it is wrong. Could it be that we are finding liver shunt in yorkies more because we are testing them more than any other breed?

I don't think it's responsible to accept that LS is just "a bid different" but not wrong. We have to have faith that the scientists investigating this disease have done so in a scientific manner to compensate for the the variables that would falsely implicate Yorkies as being more affected than other breeds. Actually, Dr. Tobias 2002 study explains how they computated their findings to adjust for any bias.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Mayhaps the porto vein does not entirely shut down in alot of small breeds but simply causes no problems for them in most cases?

Normal Yorkie portograms do not show any shunting. A little bit is still a shunt. I have read that the gene may have variable penetrance and I believe that means some dogs will be less severely affected than others.

It seems that the research has ruled out what it isn't, as far as it's mode of inheritance. It hasn't turned out to be a simple recessive or dominant trait. If it had been breeders would have figured it out a long time ago. I'm sure nobody is happy with the advice not to line breed but we can't kill the messenger. The breeders who produce LS puppies are the one's who are in the best position to help. I certainly wouldn't advertise to the world if I produced an LS puppy but I would definately forward all the information to Sharon Center and she keeps all this information confidential.

[Brooklynn]

AKC has granted Dr. Center's research on LS for a genetic marker. So I hope from research and grants this problem can be identifed for the healthy future of our wonderful breed.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

AKC has granted Dr. Center's research on LS for a genetic marker. So I hope from research and grants this problem can be identifed for the healthy future of our wonderful breed.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

It would be so nice if they could isolate the genetic marker than you wouldn't have to test every dog and hope that even a dog that has tested negative wouldn't throw a pup that tests positive.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

It would be so nice if they could isolate the genetic marker than you wouldn't have to test every dog and hope that even a dog that has tested negative wouldn't throw a pup that tests positive.

We are stepping in the right direction with the grant approved by AKC, but we still need to do all we can do to stop producing LS. It's my hopes and prayers that from this research from Dr. Center that this genetic marker can be established.