Bile Acid Testing - Page 11 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Brooklynn · 03-17-2008, 01:33 PM

[quote=dudley1984;1855652]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjh

Donna, the honest truth is that most breeders do not feel like you do, whether it is right or wrong. It is like when two people get...

Do you sell your puppies with full breeding rights?

I sell on a spay/neuter contract ONLY

Brooklynn · 03-17-2008, 01:36 PM

[quote=dudley1984;1855694][QUOTE=bjh;1855677]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Selling without breeding rights gets you off the hook for spreading live shunt...

Selling without breeding rights does not get you off the hook!

Brooklynn · 03-17-2008, 01:46 PM

[QUOTE=dudley1984;1855672
If you're being selective about your bloodlines, selective about where your puppies go, honest with your customers about LS and how to look for it, and hold the AKC papers for proof of spay/neuter you're doing plenty. Some of these people on her think BAT solves the problem. They don't get that the test only catches the diseased animals and not the carriers. Forget it, it's like talking to the wall...[/QUOTE]

BAT's doesn't solve the problem but it helps! Solving the problem is to not breed when you know it's shown up and you continue to breed it...You stop it when it's discovered and you do the necessary testing....BAT's are a useful tool and NO it doesn't identify a carrier but it does catch a dog that has it and if you have a breeding program don't you want to know if the dog has it?
But if you know your lines and you are trying to do the right thing then you shouldn't have anything to worry. It's those that get defensive about the topic that makes me go hmmmmm.....those that ask more questions and wants to know the reason behind someone's belief and why they do it WITHOUT GETING DEFENSIVE is the person that really wants to learn and understand. I don't get defensive when my breeding ethics or program are questioned because I feel confident in what I do. I am passionate but it shouldn't put anyone on the offensive just because I do things my way and others do it their way. JMHO...

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

Brooklynn · 03-17-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I have dreamt of doing this most of my life but the truth is between the economy, the backyard breeders, and now the health issues I just don't know about hanging in there. Maybe Wolperts right, I should have started 20 years ago instead of having kids because trying to be a member of the dogfancy is no party now.

Tami, I just want you to know I believe you are doing right by our breed so when I get going, my posts are not directed towards you

They aren't directed at anyone it's just what I believe in doing. I get passionate as most know LOL...

Tami keep up the good work hon!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Ladyhawk · 03-17-2008, 01:54 PM

iam looking up researc, that's how I found Dr. Snyder's work. He writes for YTCa as well as Tibetan Spaniel Club. Most that I have found so far advocate getting adults tested before breeding and than only doing a BAT if results from a blood panel indicate the need for one. I'll discuss this with my vet who breeds and shows Whippets as well and see what he says. Since the majority of the Doctor's work that I have read so far call for a blood panel on adult dogs to start that would be a logical beginning for me.

Ladyhawk · 03-17-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Tami, I just want you to know I believe you are doing right by our breed so when I get going, my posts are not directed towards you

They aren't directed at anyone it's just what I believe in doing. I get passionate as most know LOL...

Tami keep up the good work hon!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Thanks Donna, that does make me feel a bit better. I am trying so hard! I have spent the entire day researching now so I have a dirty house. I do have clean dogs since I did my grooming yesterday. We leave very early Friday morn for shows all weekend in NC and tomorrow it's back to work so I guess I'll have to do housework tonight. I do get like a dog with a bone!

yorkielovs2chat · 03-17-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

BAT's doesn't solve the problem but it helps! Solving the problem is to not breed when you know it's shown up and you continue to breed it...You stop it when it's discovered and you do the necessary testing....BAT's are a useful tool and NO it doesn't identify a carrier but it does catch a dog that has it and if you have a breeding program don't you want to know if the dog has it?
But if you know your lines and you are trying to do the right thing then you shouldn't have anything to worry. It's those that get defensive about the topic that makes me go hmmmmm.....those that ask more questions and wants to know the reason behind someone's belief and why they do it WITHOUT GETING DEFENSIVE is the person that really wants to learn and understand. I don't get defensive when my breeding ethics or program are questioned because I feel confident in what I do. I am passionate but it shouldn't put anyone on the offensive just because I do things my way and others do it their way. JMHO...

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

yes...my breeder got VERY defensive and after some research...I found out a ton of things. She even contacted friends of mine with defensive talk and saying not nice things about me. She doesn't want to own up to the fact that my dog's problem is genetic although ls experts says it is.
Now...I know someone else who tested her dogs...their bile acids are high. No symptoms. Only tested to be on the safe side because dogs came from same place as mine. So, don't just go by signs because my dog and these two others had none.

yorkielovs2chat · 03-17-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom 2 B

Just to add to this. If I bought a Yorkie without this knowledge (first, shame on me for not doing my research) and it turned out to have LS, AND I found out the breeder could've done a test, I would be telling everyone I know not to buy from this breeder.

And, I have done this. I have two Springers, one from a great breeder and the other not. I tell everyone who will listen not to buy from the breeder where my epileptic Springer came from. I know epilepsy can happen to any dog but I have since found out that this breeder has bred other epileptics (again, I didn't do my research, he was my first purebred and I fell in love). She also cut off all communication with us when we told her about our dog. He was a couple of days shy of his first birthday. She was not an ethical breeder, unlike the breeders on here.

Sorry to keep butting in.

This can be tough though. My breeder has top winning show dog right now with same father as mine. Last I knew, she was still breeding the father and saying she has never had LS despite what I have shown her from my dog. She threatened to sue me if I told anyone. now...I know that I have papers, 5 vet and surgoen and expert on my side but I am still careful. The vets (especially the expert ls from cornell) is baffled by why she cannot see that she has a problem.

dudley1984 · 03-17-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

BAT's doesn't solve the problem but it helps! Solving the problem is to not breed when you know it's shown up and you

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries

OMG some of you people are tiresome. My adults are from known lines and have the usual blood panels periodically, usually prior to dental work. I don't test my puppies but inform the buyers about shunt, what to look for, testing options, etc. All are sold without breeding rights and do not receive AKC papers without proof of spay/neuter. I suppose some creep byb could possibly con me out of one of my puppies and "register" it through some fake registry and maybe, possibly, in your dreams, go on to produce shunt puppies....

dudley1984 · 03-17-2008, 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=dudley1984;1856443]OMG some of you people are tiresome. My adults are from known lines and have the usual blood panels periodically, usually prior to dental work. I don't test my puppies but inform the buyers

Ladyhawk · 03-17-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkielovs2chat

yes...my breeder got VERY defensive and after some research...I found out a ton of things. She even contacted friends of mine with defensive talk and saying not nice things about me. She doesn't want to own up to the fact that my dog's problem is genetic although ls experts says it is.
Now...I know someone else who tested her dogs...their bile acids are high. No symptoms. Only tested to be on the safe side because dogs came from same place as mine. So, don't just go by signs because my dog and these two others had none.

From many of the things that I read today high bile acids don't necessarily mean a liver shunt but is indicative of liver trouble. Poor functioning can be caused by other sources as well and more testing would be in order. If there are no symptoms because the ammonia is being adequately dealt with without the aid of a special diet or medication can you really say that the dog has a problem? How many of God's living creatures are not perfect but no one knows it because they function perfectly just as they are? If we start testing for more things how many more surprises will we come across? It makes me wonder if the incidence of LS is really up that much or if the increase in testing is just bringing it out.

Amazing Yorkies · 03-17-2008, 05:59 PM

My breeding adults are tested.
My Vet always gives a test with them fasting from 8 pm the night before. At 8 am (or when they get to it :

) they pull the 1st blood, then they feed them, and retest 2 hours later. If you have ever seen how they pull blood, you would not want to do it to every puppy! It is invasive, it is scary, it is cruel! IMO
My Vet also tells me that if the blood is drawn wrong, it would throw off the test...
I've had several people contact me for a puppy, that have had bad experiences with LS with previous breeders and they ask for a test. I have no problem testing for their peace of mind. I will do testing upon request, but will not put every puppy through that!
If you worry about LS then just ask for a BAT. A good breeder should have no problem getting that done for you.

Ladymom · 03-17-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

My breeding adults are tested.
My Vet always gives a test with them fasting from 8 pm the night before. At 8 am (or when they get to it :

) they pull the 1st blood, then they feed them, and retest 2 hours later. If you have ever seen how they pull blood, you would not want to do it to every puppy! It is invasive, it is scary, it is cruel! IMO
My Vet also tells me that if the blood is drawn wrong, it would throw off the test...
I've had several people contact me for a puppy, that have had bad experiences with LS with previous breeders and they ask for a test. I have no problem testing for their peace of mind. I will do testing upon request, but will not put every puppy through that!
If you worry about LS then just ask for a BAT. A good breeder should have no problem getting that done for you.

Dr. Center has updated her protocol and fasting is no longer necessary. This is from page 5 of her handout:

7. Random "Fasting" Bile Acids ARE NOT reliable for RULING OUT liver dysfunction or abnormal portal circulation. Rather, you need PAIRED SAMPLES AROUND A MEAL. We no longer collect 12-hr fasting bile acids but instead collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a meal (post-meal or postprandial)." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center, not me)

Amazing Yorkies · 03-17-2008, 06:53 PM

How long before a meal? If they have just eaten when I take them to their test, you would need to do some sort of fasting, wouldn't you? To make sure it is pre-meal?
Thanks for the info, would gladly not have to fast the poor babies 12 hours!

MyFairLacy · 03-17-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

To be honest what's the difference in placing a 12 week old puppy vs. a 16 week old puppy? Breeders want to place them that bad or for the money? I've had NO problems placing a puppy at even 7 to 8 months old. I have a 9 month old I'm showing and I could place her into a pet home right now. If you are a responsible breeder why not test before placing? If you care about the breed and doing it ethically I see no reason NOT to TEST! JMHO

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I am so glad at least one breeder truly gets it!

Why NOT test?? It's inexpensive, it doesn't hurt the dog, and it's a quick and easy procedure. It can't HURT..only help..so why not do it?

03-17-2008, 01:46 PM	#153
Brooklynn Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 4,280	[QUOTE=dudley1984;1855672 If you're being selective about your bloodlines, selective about where your puppies go, honest with your customers about LS and how to look for it, and hold the AKC papers for proof of spay/neuter you're doing plenty. Some of these people on her think BAT solves the problem. They don't get that the test only catches the diseased animals and not the carriers. Forget it, it's like talking to the wall...[/QUOTE] BAT's doesn't solve the problem but it helps! Solving the problem is to not breed when you know it's shown up and you continue to breed it...You stop it when it's discovered and you do the necessary testing....BAT's are a useful tool and NO it doesn't identify a carrier but it does catch a dog that has it and if you have a breeding program don't you want to know if the dog has it? But if you know your lines and you are trying to do the right thing then you shouldn't have anything to worry. It's those that get defensive about the topic that makes me go hmmmmm.....those that ask more questions and wants to know the reason behind someone's belief and why they do it WITHOUT GETING DEFENSIVE is the person that really wants to learn and understand. I don't get defensive when my breeding ethics or program are questioned because I feel confident in what I do. I am passionate but it shouldn't put anyone on the offensive just because I do things my way and others do it their way. JMHO... Donna Bird Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terries __________________ Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers www.brooklynnyorkies.com

03-17-2008, 01:54 PM	#155
Ladyhawk YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 2,808	iam looking up researc, that's how I found Dr. Snyder's work. He writes for YTCa as well as Tibetan Spaniel Club. Most that I have found so far advocate getting adults tested before breeding and than only doing a BAT if results from a blood panel indicate the need for one. I'll discuss this with my vet who breeds and shows Whippets as well and see what he says. Since the majority of the Doctor's work that I have read so far call for a blood panel on adult dogs to start that would be a logical beginning for me. __________________ Tami

03-17-2008, 05:35 PM	#160
dudley1984 BANNED! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: salem nh Posts: 81	Enrich your vet---breed junk and promote BAT [QUOTE=dudley1984;1856443]OMG some of you people are tiresome. My adults are from known lines and have the usual blood panels periodically, usually prior to dental work. I don't test my puppies but inform the buyers

03-17-2008, 05:59 PM	#162
Amazing Yorkies YT Featured Breeder Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,552	My breeding adults are tested. My Vet always gives a test with them fasting from 8 pm the night before. At 8 am (or when they get to it : ) they pull the 1st blood, then they feed them, and retest 2 hours later. If you have ever seen how they pull blood, you would not want to do it to every puppy! It is invasive, it is scary, it is cruel! IMO My Vet also tells me that if the blood is drawn wrong, it would throw off the test... I've had several people contact me for a puppy, that have had bad experiences with LS with previous breeders and they ask for a test. I have no problem testing for their peace of mind. I will do testing upon request, but will not put every puppy through that! If you worry about LS then just ask for a BAT. A good breeder should have no problem getting that done for you. __________________ Deb Sillers 816-261-8734 Cell ~ www.Amazingyorkies.com ~

03-17-2008, 06:53 PM	#164
Amazing Yorkies YT Featured Breeder Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,552	How long before a meal? If they have just eaten when I take them to their test, you would need to do some sort of fasting, wouldn't you? To make sure it is pre-meal? Thanks for the info, would gladly not have to fast the poor babies 12 hours! __________________ Deb Sillers 816-261-8734 Cell ~ www.Amazingyorkies.com ~