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-   -   Bile Acid Testing (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/120810-bile-acid-testing.html)

blitz 03-09-2008 08:52 AM
Bile Acid Testing
 
Are breeders on here doing bile acid testing on their dogs? If not, why not? I know the test is not 100% but I believe the problem is more with false negatives.

Ladyhawk 03-09-2008 10:18 AM
They do not have a test yet to determine if your dog carries the recessive gene or combo of genes that would be at fault. Until they are able to isolate the genetic marker you can only make sure that you do not repeat breedings that produce liver shunt. Of course you must never breed a dog or bitch with liver shunt.

blitz 03-10-2008 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1836036)
They do not have a test yet to determine if your dog carries the recessive gene or combo of genes that would be at fault. Until they are able to isolate the genetic marker you can only make sure that you do not repeat breedings that produce liver shunt. Of course you must never breed a dog or bitch with liver shunt.
I understand what you are saying but with the bile acid test available, isn't that a good tool to screen breeding animals that might not show any symptoms of liver shunt but which still may have MVD?

Ladyhawk 03-10-2008 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz (Post 1837692)
I understand what you are saying but with the bile acid test available, isn't that a good tool to screen breeding animals that might not show any symptoms of liver shunt but which still may have MVD?
A good blood panel will show if ALT levels are elevated and a BAT is called for. It is unnecessary, in my opinion, to put my dogs through the fasting, etc. for the test if there is no indication of a need for it.

blitz 03-10-2008 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1837819)
A good blood panel will show if ALT levels are elevated and a BAT is called for. It is unnecessary, in my opinion, to put my dogs through the fasting, etc. for the test if there is no indication of a need for it.
I understand the fasting is only for 2 hours.

BakersDozen 03-10-2008 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1837819)
A good blood panel will show if ALT levels are elevated and a BAT is called for. It is unnecessary, in my opinion, to put my dogs through the fasting, etc. for the test if there is no indication of a need for it.
I agree, particularly if you have knowledge of the dog's lines, etc. To me, it is not so much the fasting, but here we live 45 minutes from the vet. So it is either keep the dogs in the waiting room (with sick animals coming and going) for hours, or leave and drive around for hours....I would only do this if there is a need for it.

Ladyhawk 03-10-2008 07:30 AM
I won't subject my dogs to a test where there is no indication that it is needed. If the ALT levels came back elevated, there was a history of it in my line, or one of my dogs threw a pup that was diagnosed with LS than there would be a need. I would guess that most responcible breeders do a blood panel and than would proceed from there if there is any indication that more testing is needed.

Ellie May 03-10-2008 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz (Post 1835862)
Are breeders on here doing bile acid testing on their dogs? If not, why not? I know the test is not 100% but I believe the problem is more with false negatives.
I totally agree. I would not buy from a breeder who doesn't do it because there is a major problem with this and Yorkies right now. LS can skip 10 generations, so it is safer to test.

The ALT doesn't necessary go up until the liver is 70% damaged from a shunt or MVD, so you can't rely on a blood panel alone. I can understand not testing puppies but adults need to be.

MyFairLacy 03-10-2008 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 1837971)
I totally agree. I would not buy from a breeder who doesn't do it because there is a major problem with this and Yorkies right now. LS can skip 10 generations, so it is safer to test.

The ALT doesn't necessary go up until the liver is 70% damaged from a shunt or MVD, so you can't rely on a blood panel alone. I can understand not testing puppies but adults need to be.
I agree...I would not buy from a breeder that does not BAT all their dogs before breeding. I really think it is necessary. It's not at all a difficult test and no longer requires fasting. Blood is drawn, the dogs eat, and then another blood draw is done. There is no reason NOT TO BAT in my opinion.

Ladyhawk 03-10-2008 04:23 PM
According to further study that I've been involved in today ( I really love to study) a BAT really will bring no conclusive proof because of the following taken from Dr. Tobias's work on liver shunts: "A Liver shunt cannot be difinitely diagnosed by bloodwork; shunting can only be found by advanced techniques such as scintigraphy, ultrasound, portography, cat scan, MRI, or exploratory surgery." More interesting reading to be done.

blitz 03-11-2008 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1839403)
According to further study that I've been involved in today ( I really love to study) a BAT really will bring no conclusive proof because of the following taken from Dr. Tobias's work on liver shunts: "A Liver shunt cannot be difinitely diagnosed by bloodwork; shunting can only be found by advanced techniques such as scintigraphy, ultrasound, portography, cat scan, MRI, or exploratory surgery." More interesting reading to be done.
True, but one would definately not start with those advanced techniques. I understand that a dog could be asymptomatic for many years yet still have LS or MVD. A BAT over 25 would surely signal if further testing needs to be done and other things would be askew in a CBC as well and this is relatively simple testing. It's not perfect but if it is all that is available at this time as a minimally invasive screening, why not do it?

MyFairLacy 03-11-2008 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz (Post 1840509)
True, but one would definately not start with those advanced techniques. I understand that a dog could be asymptomatic for many years yet still have LS or MVD. A BAT over 25 would surely signal if further testing needs to be done and other things would be askew in a CBC as well and this is relatively simple testing. It's not perfect but if it is all that is available at this time as a minimally invasive screening, why not do it?
:thumbup: A BAT would alert you to a problem so that you could pursue further testing if needed. I still don't see a reason not to BAT.

BakersDozen 03-11-2008 12:05 PM
To me, the scenario kind of seems like this:

I am a 30 year old female, with no family history of heart disease, no risk factors, no signs, symptoms, etc. It's time for my yearly exam. Do I go in and have a complete heart work-up or do I just do bloodwork and other basic tests?

It's not irresponsible if I don't have the whole work-up, because the factors and information I have available to me don't indicate it's necessary. However, at the same time, it wouldn't be wrong for me to have it done either.

Just my 2 cents.....of course, everyone has the right to decide if it's important to them. I just don't think it's irresponsible not to do it.

blitz 03-11-2008 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakersDozen (Post 1841354)
To me, the scenario kind of seems like this:

I am a 30 year old female, with no family history of heart disease, no risk factors, no signs, symptoms, etc. It's time for my yearly exam. Do I go in and have a complete heart work-up or do I just do bloodwork and other basic tests?

It's not irresponsible if I don't have the whole work-up, because the factors and information I have available to me don't indicate it's necessary. However, at the same time, it wouldn't be wrong for me to have it done either.

Just my 2 cents.....of course, everyone has the right to decide if it's important to them. I just don't think it's irresponsible not to do it.
Um, of course you know we're talking about Yorkies here where liver shunt is a major problem, not a 30 year old female with no remarkable history.

I'm not even suggesting that it is irresponsible for breeders not to have BAT done. However, I want to be convinced why we should not have it done to every single Yorkie.

Ellie May 03-11-2008 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=blitz;184150I'm not even suggesting that it is irresponsible for breeders not to have BAT done. However, I want to be convinced why we should not have it done to every single Yorkie.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why every Yorkie shouldn't have one either. I mean, less than a year ago I didn't know what a BAT was but now I had one done on Ellie and since hers are way too high, it is best to treat. That means she has to have Denosyl everyday ($225 a year), she should be fed more often (3 or more times a day), she should have fish oil and vitamin e (and not just because it makes her coat look better), her vaccines have to be done carefully and she can't have many and meds have to be liver friendly which isn't easy and Ellie's liver isn't that bad. I'm glad she doesn't have to be on anything else. So, going through this I don't think there is any reason not to test breeding dogs because it is just one more precaution to make sure the buyer doesn't have to deal with this.


Of course Ellie is worth this but why not at least test to try and prevent the continuation of liver issues in the Yorkie?


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