Bile Acid Testing

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=Ladymom;1844671]This is from page 22 of the handout Dr. Center uses at her seminars:


2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " (all emphasis added by Dr. Center)[/QUOTE

Four months!!! How many breeders can keep their puppies at home for that long? Do anything to avoid that boring old pedigree research...

[Ladymom]

[quote=dudley1984;1844873]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

This is from page 22 of the handout Dr. Center uses at her seminars:


2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " (all emphasis added by Dr. Center)[/QUOTE

Four months!!! How many breeders can keep their puppies at home for that long? Do anything to avoid that boring old pedigree research...

While four months is ideal, if you reread it, Dr. Center recommends that the BAT be done before the puppy goes to her new home which would be a few weeks earlier.

[bchgirl]

[quote=dudley1984;1844873]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

This is from page 22 of the handout Dr. Center uses at her seminars:


2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " (all emphasis added by Dr. Center)[/QUOTE

Four months!!! How many breeders can keep their puppies at home for that long? Do anything to avoid that boring old pedigree research...

Perhaps you missed those two sentences......

[Ladymom]

[quote=bchgirl;1845344]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Perhaps you missed those two sentences......

Perhaps you missed the first sentence.

"The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds at 4 mths of age while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes."

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Perhaps you missed the first sentence.

"The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds at 4 mths of age while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes."

I think Bchgirl's response was meant for Dudley...the quotes were all messed up. I think it was in response to the "4 months? how many people keep them that long...". (could be wrong though)

[blitz]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Four months!!! How many breeders can keep their puppies at home for that long? Do anything to avoid that boring old pedigree research...

I can't see how that would be such a big problem. LS is a much bigger problem and if it is too inconvenient for breeders to keep their puppies until they are a little bit older, perhaps they should do less breeding. You know, quality over quantity and all that. I agree it is incovenient to have to do all this darn testing but I also think that doing everything possible to eradicate this disease is worth it.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

There is one very famous dog whose name is showing up with alarming frequency on shunt pedigrees. Who is it?

What is this a riddle? State your case.

[dudley1984]

You go on and on trying to sound so authoritative but you only harp on BAT. If you knew anything about bloodlines you would know about this particular famous show dog and prolific reproducer whose name keeps showing up on shunt pedigrees. He didn't have liver shunt and BAT would have told us nothing about his being a carrier. BAT is nice after you get a problem but doesn't help you much to avoid the problem. Pedigree research does. I'm disappointed with the lack of quality breeders posting here...

[bchgirl]

A little light reading from the University of Tennessee and Dr. Tobias. I have read this forward, backward, and upside down the past two months.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/calendar/

[Brooklynn]

I'm disappointed with the lack of quality breeders posting here...[/QUOTE]

I really hope you're not lumping me into your catagory.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

You go on and on trying to sound so authoritative but you only harp on BAT. If you knew anything about bloodlines you would know about this particular famous show dog and prolific reproducer whose name keeps showing up on shunt pedigrees. He didn't have liver shunt and BAT would have told us nothing about his being a carrier. BAT is nice after you get a problem but doesn't help you much to avoid the problem. Pedigree research does. I'm disappointed with the lack of quality breeders posting here...

Neutaring that sire after the first case of liver shunt would've helped.

Testing the puppies would have discovered the ones with LS...

[dudley1984]

Too late, though. The sire went on to overpopulate the world with shunt carriers, several generations worth. If you study pedigree you know to avoid breeding dogs that are descended from him... By the way, how do you deal with puppies with positive BATs?

[bjh]

Here is some interesting information from the following website:
http://www.yorkierescue.com/livershunt/research2.html

This is what Karen Tobias said:

Latest Update 2002
As many of you know, I have been completing a study funded by the AKC Canine Health Foundation regarding determination of genetic relationships among Yorkshire Terriers with single congenital portosystemic shunts. Our objectives were to determine whether coefficient of inbreeding was greater in Yorkies with portosystemic shunts (PSS) than Yorkies with normal bile acids (NBA) and to determine whether a common ancestor was present in the pedigrees of dogs with PSS. We excluded pedigrees of full siblings from our analyses so that a wide variety of breedings would be included. Pedigrees were entered into a data collecting system (“The Breeder’s Standard”; Man’s Best Friend Software, Version 5.0.632, 1999). Wright’s coefficient of inbreeding for up to 10 generations was calculated for each dog. Five and eight generation pedigrees were analyzed for common ancestors.

We found that the Wright’s coefficient of inbreeding for Yorkies with single congenital extrahepatic portosystemic shunts was twice as high as that of Yorkies with normal bile acids (0.054 +/- 0.094 and 0.028 +/- 0.042, respectively). This difference was not statistically significant, however; we would need to study the a greater number of pedigrees with PSS to see whether inbreeding was a factor in shunt development in Yorkies, as it is in Irish wolfhounds.

We evaluated the pedigrees for common ancestors and, in the PSS group, found one dog that was mentioned repeatedly in most the five and 8 generation pedigrees. However, this dog was also mentioned in most of the pedigrees of the normal Yorkies as well, and therefore cannot be implicated in the disease.

Bottom line: The news is good and bad. For those folks that are concerned about a certain dog or dogs in their lines, there is no proof that a single dog or line is the source of the disease. I'm sure that is a relief for many breeders. However, it would have been much easier to find out that a certain dog or line was responsible, as that would make the problem easier to avoid. Based on our results, the trait is likely to be polygeneic; thus, there is no easy answer as to how to avoid the disease. Veterinarians will likely continue to recommend that neither parent of a shunt dog be bred again or, at the very least, that test breedings of parent to offspring be performed to rule out carriers. Research is now underway at Ohio State University and Michigan to look for a genetic marker. If you know of anyone that has 2 affected dogs in the same line, please contact us or any of the involved Universities. Your information may provide the key to developing a test that will save future generations from this disease.

You are welcome to forward this information to other listservs and internet sites. I'm happy to answer any questions about the study or about shunts.

Karen Tobias DVM MS ACVS
University of Tennessee
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences
P.O. Box 1071
Knoxville TN 37901-1071

Does anyone know of any updates since then?

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by bjh

Here is some interesting information from the following website:


This is what Karen Tobias said:


Does anyone know of any updates since then?

That particular study began in 1999 and concluded in 2002. That's why the updates for that study end at 2002. There is alot more information contained in the link I posted from the university site.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Too late, though. The sire went on to overpopulate the world with shunt carriers, several generations worth. If you study pedigree you know to avoid breeding dogs that are descended from him... By the way, how do you deal with puppies with positive BATs?

In that case...too late and unfortunately I believe...THAT (not solely that one sire)...has lead to the problem with yorkshire terriers and liver shunt today. People are continuing to breed animals with liver shunts in their lines. They know it's an hereditory condition but NOT how it's passed and until that can be determined the only safe thing to do...is remove animals from a breeding program who have produced LS puppies.

If a puppy's BAT levels came back elevated...then a protein C test should be performed. That test would indicate whether having more intensive testing for LS should be performed....


I'm not a breeder I have no knowledge of whose lines have produced liver shunt puppies...I want to avoid purchasing one...the only way I feel safe would be purchasing a puppy who has been tested.