Bile Acid Testing

[blitz]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

You go on and on trying to sound so authoritative but you only harp on BAT. If you knew anything about bloodlines you would know about this particular famous show dog and prolific reproducer whose name keeps showing up on shunt pedigrees. He didn't have liver shunt and BAT would have told us nothing about his being a carrier. BAT is nice after you get a problem but doesn't help you much to avoid the problem. Pedigree research does. I'm disappointed with the lack of quality breeders posting here...

Thank you for saying I sound authorative lol. I am not even trying I'm merely exploring this issue.

I know exactly what dog you are referring to but honestly, I don't think it is right to name him so I won't. Was just wondering if I could get you to do it. We can't possibly know what BATing would have told us about this dog

[Woogie Man]

From what I've read (limited though it may be), it seems that liver shunt, by its very nature, would present outward manifestations. The elevated ammonia levels display themselves in behaviors such as head pressing, walking in circles, lethargy, excessive drooling, vomiting,diahrrea , seizures, disorientation, lack of weight gain in puppies and a general lack of vigor (I'm sure I omitted some symptoms). With all these outward clues, why do most feel it necessary to test every single dog, even those asymptomatic ones? Is it more a peace of mind issue or are there valid medical reasons? With the numbers stated here of liver shunt in Yorkies (36 times the incidence of all breeds combined), it seems that no bloodline is 'safe' and that the problem is within the entire breed or else the numbers are skewed by increased awareness and testing among Yorkie owners. Also, I haven't seen where it has been concluded that liver shunt is an inherited trait (though it is only common sense to not breed a 'sickly' dog) so doesn't testing healthy breeding dogs lead to a false sense of security? I'm not trying to re-start a debate, only posing some questions based on the info I have.

[dudley1984]

for getting the bigger picture...

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

From what I've read (limited though it may be), it seems that liver shunt, by its very nature, would present outward manifestations. The elevated ammonia levels display themselves in behaviors such as head pressing, walking in circles, lethargy, excessive drooling, vomiting,diahrrea , seizures, disorientation, lack of weight gain in puppies and a general lack of vigor (I'm sure I omitted some symptoms). With all these outward clues, why do most feel it necessary to test every single dog, even those asymptomatic ones? Is it more a peace of mind issue or are there valid medical reasons? With the numbers stated here of liver shunt in Yorkies (36 times the incidence of all breeds combined), it seems that no bloodline is 'safe' and that the problem is within the entire breed or else the numbers are skewed by increased awareness and testing among Yorkie owners. Also, I haven't seen where it has been concluded that liver shunt is an inherited trait (though it is only common sense to not breed a 'sickly' dog) so doesn't testing healthy breeding dogs lead to a false sense of security? I'm not trying to re-start a debate, only posing some questions based on the info I have.

Those are symptoms of liver shunt but microvascular dysplasia (small shunting throughout the liver) can be asymptomatic and these dogs shouldn't be bred. So, it is very common for there to be no symptoms with MVD. And, one dog I know of wasn't diagnosed with a liver shunt until age 8, so they don't always show symptoms right away.

I think most Yorkie bloodlines are affected, so there is no way to be completely sure that you aren't breeding a carrier of LS but you have a better chance if the parent doesn't have it.

Yes, you do have to study bloodlines and that is very important but what if a breeding dog had asymptomatic MVD and passed this on to their puppies because the breeder didn't bile acid test? It could have been prevented but wasn't which isn't fair to the new owners.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

From what I've read (limited though it may be), it seems that liver shunt, by its very nature, would present outward manifestations. The elevated ammonia levels display themselves in behaviors such as head pressing, walking in circles, lethargy, excessive drooling, vomiting,diahrrea , seizures, disorientation, lack of weight gain in puppies and a general lack of vigor (I'm sure I omitted some symptoms). With all these outward clues, why do most feel it necessary to test every single dog, even those asymptomatic ones? Is it more a peace of mind issue or are there valid medical reasons? With the numbers stated here of liver shunt in Yorkies (36 times the incidence of all breeds combined), it seems that no bloodline is 'safe' and that the problem is within the entire breed or else the numbers are skewed by increased awareness and testing among Yorkie owners. Also, I haven't seen where it has been concluded that liver shunt is an inherited trait (though it is only common sense to not breed a 'sickly' dog) so doesn't testing healthy breeding dogs lead to a false sense of security? I'm not trying to re-start a debate, only posing some questions based on the info I have.

While I agree with some of what you are saying but shunts and MVD are different and I do it for peace of mind and studying pedigrees but I do have one question...how do you know the dog is healthy without testing it first? Can't just look at a dog and say it's healthy without the testing whether it be for LS or other issues

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[blitz]

[QUOTE=Woogie Man;1846130]From what I've read (limited though it may be), it seems that liver shunt, by its very nature, would present outward manifestations. The elevated ammonia levels display themselves in behaviors such as head pressing, walking in circles, lethargy, excessive drooling, vomiting,diahrrea , seizures, disorientation, lack of weight gain in puppies and a general lack of vigor (I'm sure I omitted some symptoms). With all these outward clues, why do most feel it necessary to test every single dog, even those asymptomatic ones? Is it more a peace of mind issue or are there valid medical reasons?

Look up MVD. There are often no clinical signs and the dog can live it's entire life needing no intervention. An MVD dog should defininately not be bred though and the only way to identify them if they have no symptoms is through BAT.

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for the 'kind' replies. As I said before, I'm no expert and don't wish to debate . I guess you can never 'know' anything before testing but in the case of liver shunt it seems that there would be outward signs before a dog is old enough to breed. As far as MVD goes, isn't that a heart valve problem? I have read that MVD may not show outward signs until late in life so I would be more concerned about that as far as testing goes. I've read that MVD is prevalent in King Charles Spaniels and some have recommended not breeding a stud (of that breed) until 5 years old. As far as liver shunts go, be they internal or external to the liver, they are defined by degrees of severity while MVD is a progressive disease that will get worse as the dog ages. Thanks again for your input and keep those 'kind' posts coming.

[Woogie Man]

I should point out that the 'MVD' I was referring to is Mitral Valve Disease, a heart condition, not microvascular dysplasia. As I said before, I'm no expert but am trying to expand my knowledge as my Yorkies are everything to me. Thanks to all for your input. I learn more here than from my vet. I just recently switched vets (1 year ago) because of concerns I had over my prior vet's vaccination protocol, and she was a Yorkie breeder herself. It seems to me that we all have to be informed and pro-active with our dogs' health. Veterinary care is a fast evolving science and it seems now that most everything is not as it was just a few years ago. YorkieTalk is a great resource for all concerned Yorkie owners and breeders and, while I don't agree with everything posted on the various forums, it certainly opens my eyes to do my own research. Thanks to you all.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Thanks for the 'kind' replies. As I said before, I'm no expert and don't wish to debate . I guess you can never 'know' anything before testing but in the case of liver shunt it seems that there would be outward signs before a dog is old enough to breed. As far as MVD goes, isn't that a heart valve problem? I have read that MVD may not show outward signs until late in life so I would be more concerned about that as far as testing goes. I've read that MVD is prevalent in King Charles Spaniels and some have recommended not breeding a stud (of that breed) until 5 years old. As far as liver shunts go, be they internal or external to the liver, they are defined by degrees of severity while MVD is a progressive disease that will get worse as the dog ages. Thanks again for your input and keep those 'kind' posts coming.

If you are breeding Yorkies, you really need to study this disease. What you stated here is untrue. There were some good links in this thread and also some good excerpts from Dr. Center's works. You're funny about the "kindness" thing. I'm more from the "blunt" family. Can't help it, it's in my jeans

[Woogie Man]

Not trying to be funny with the kindness thing. I've read some threads here and have seen the short jump from blunt to rude all too often. The information I got was from veterinary sources on the web. I've googled 'canine liver shunt' and 'canine MVD' and read from what seemed to be the best resources. This certainly doesn't qualify me as an expert but the info I've read is consistent from various sources so I would like you to explain how what I stated is 'untrue'. Regardless, I plan to study this condition more even though I've never had any of these issues with my dogs or their pups. Honestly, neither of the vets I've used nor any breeders I know have ever sounded the alarm so loudly about liver shunts as here. While familiar with what a liver shunt was, I had no real knowledge about them so I guess more study is in order. One question. Does anyone know of any studies comparing the incidence of liver shunt in line-bred dogs as opposed to open-pedigreed dogs? (kind replies only, please )

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Not trying to be funny with the kindness thing. I've read some threads here and have seen the short jump from blunt to rude all too often. The information I got was from veterinary sources on the web. I've googled 'canine liver shunt' and 'canine MVD' and read from what seemed to be the best resources. This certainly doesn't qualify me as an expert but the info I've read is consistent from various sources so I would like you to explain how what I stated is 'untrue'. Regardless, I plan to study this condition more even though I've never had any of these issues with my dogs or their pups. Honestly, neither of the vets I've used nor any breeders I know have ever sounded the alarm so loudly about liver shunts as here. While familiar with what a liver shunt was, I had no real knowledge about them so I guess more study is in order. One question. Does anyone know of any studies comparing the incidence of liver shunt in line-bred dogs as opposed to open-pedigreed dogs? (kind replies only, please )

MVD referenced in this thread isn't referring to mitral valve disease. Here it is referring to a liver disease. Yes may dogs with mvd show clinical signs when they are older...that doesn't mean they did not have the condition...it means they were asymptomatic.

I know of no studies in regards to in line breeding vs open pedigreed breeding...although it would seem to me...it still depends on whether the lines being breed ever produced liver shunt or mvd puppies.

The disease has been determined to be hereditary but just how has not been determined.

More light reading LOL
http://www.yorkieangelpatrol.com/mvd.htm

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for the link, bchgirl (light reading...right ). Yes, it was my mistake confusing mitral valve disease with microvascular dysplasia (both abbreviated MVD). Blame it on my ignorance, which I'm trying to correct . In an effort to further educate myself, can someone explain what is meant by 'researching ' pedigrees? Is there a source available that gives info on health issues with certain bloodlines? How can one be certain of the health of dogs 3 or more generations in the past in any given pedigree? I have 7 generation pedigrees on several of my dogs; how do I proceed from there?

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=Woogie Man;1848844]Thanks for the link, bchgirl (light reading...right ). Yes, it was my mistake confusing mitral valve disease with microvascular dysplasia (both abbreviated MVD).

You pretty much have to read every book and article you can on your breed,and the internet has a ton of information. Join a club and go to shows. Get to know the exhibitors, especially the older ones who've been at it a few decades. They know so much... If you have an active YTCA chapter near you, find a sponsor...I should follow my own advice a little better...Do an internet search on the names on your pedigrees, see if you can get some background. Again, find good show people and have them review you pedigrees. They'll quickly fill you in on who is in there...

[blitz]

Why can't we discuss pedigrees on here?

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by blitz

Why can't we discuss pedigrees on here?

I suppose it could be done if one wanted to post a request for info about a particular dog or line. For example, I'd love information about Reveille...