Cesar debate thread

[Nancy1999]

Well, I'm totally against spanking, mainly because when it's done, the parent is angry, and it can excalate. A parent should never punish in anger, but wait tell emotions are controled. I also don't think we should ever hit someone, except in self defense. You are teaching a child it's ok to hit someone when you spank them. I do not see how this has anything to do with Cesar, he strongly advocates not hitting animals. How we each define abuse, is subjective, some people think crate training is abusive.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well, I'm totally against spanking, mainly because when it's done, the parent is angry, and it can excalate. A parent should never punish in anger, but wait tell emotions are controled. I also don't think we should ever hit someone, except in self defense. You are teaching a child it's ok to hit someone when you spank them. I do not see how this has anything to do with Cesar, he strongly advocates not hitting animals. How we each define abuse, is subjective, some people think crate training is abusive.

Yes, that's very true. The number one thing Cesar always teaches is to be calm so when parents are spanking, they're not going to be calm. He never punishes out of anger - he just disciplines calmly.

I think it got brought up because people are claiming that Cesar hits and kicks his dogs and I was just trying to show the difference, because I don't believe that he abuses animals, but some say he does. As for the spanking, I guess my main point is that it never psychologically damaged any of my relatives who were spanked as kids; however, I don't think I could ever get myself to spank my own child.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I deal with mischiefious puppies, Not vicious adult dogs.

So there is a huge difference. I never feel threatened by my dogs, if I did, I would not be breeding them.

I have and that is why I have studied many of the different methods out there because I have dogs that bite first and ask questions later...this is what abuse will do to a Yorkie. If I did the things he does to my biters I would be destroying these dogs. I know it for a fact...I do not believe in flooding, I don't believe in choke collars, prong collars etc because dogs are dogs no matter the size and I don't think you can have different standards based on the size of the dog. I don't believe in the Alpha role because I don't believe in that theory because they have proven it is bunk.

If you worked with a fear aggressive dog you would understand why what he did to that Akita was what I consider abuse. I consider it abuse to chain a dog in the backyard (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep a dog locked up in a kennel only large enough to move around in (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep pumping out puppies year after year (state laws don't)..I could go on with the list of things that I believe are abuse ..

[Britster]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I have and that is why I have studied many of the different methods out there because I have dogs that bite first and ask questions later...this is what abuse will do to a Yorkie. If I did the things he does to my biters I would be destroying these dogs. I know it for a fact...I do not believe in flooding, I don't believe in choke collars, prong collars etc because dogs are dogs no matter the size and I don't think you can have different standards based on the size of the dog. I don't believe in the Alpha role because I don't believe in that theory because they have proven it is bunk.

If you worked with a fear aggressive dog you would understand why what he did to that Akita was what I consider abuse. I consider it abuse to chain a dog in the backyard (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep a dog locked up in a kennel only large enough to move around in (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep pumping out puppies year after year (state laws don't)..I could go on with the list of things that I believe are abuse ..

I consider all those things abusive, too.

What did he do wrong with the Akita?

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I have and that is why I have studied many of the different methods out there because I have dogs that bite first and ask questions later...this is what abuse will do to a Yorkie. If I did the things he does to my biters I would be destroying these dogs. I know it for a fact...I do not believe in flooding, I don't believe in choke collars, prong collars etc because dogs are dogs no matter the size and I don't think you can have different standards based on the size of the dog. I don't believe in the Alpha role because I don't believe in that theory because they have proven it is bunk.

If you worked with a fear aggressive dog you would understand why what he did to that Akita was what I consider abuse. I consider it abuse to chain a dog in the backyard (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep a dog locked up in a kennel only large enough to move around in (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep pumping out puppies year after year (state laws don't)..I could go on with the list of things that I believe are abuse ..

Cindy

Take a very deep long breath and look at what is being said...
See aggression ??? what do we do in the face of aggression???

Best way to solve this is to do that.
You can not teach in a space that is not open to learning and one that can not see abuse in its face for fear it maybe wrong.
We can chatter at them all day but they are not willing to read and see the evidence for what it is.
See fear again and aggression.
So let them as the law allows to own thier cretures great and small and let them do as they wish.

Our best recource is to pray either they get one as bad as we have and learn cause they must or pray they never do.
Oh this does mean I will stop talking about Ceaser and his abusive ways but I am not allowing anyone to beat on me in such a manner to long.
I not burning out there are to many dogs that still need and owners that still need my care.
My advice Cindy is burn out is not worth them.


JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Cindy

Take a very deep long breath and look at what is being said...
See aggression ??? what do we do in the face of aggression???

Best way to solve this is to do that.
You can not teach in a space that is not open to learning and one that can not see abuse in its face for fear it maybe wrong.
Wecan chatter at them all day but they arenot willing to read and see the evidence. So let them as the law allows to own thier cretures great and small and let them do as they wish.

Our best recource is to pray either they get one as bad as we have andlearn cause they must or pray they never do.
Oh this does mean Iwill stop talking about Ceaser and his abusive ways but I am not allowing anyone to beat on me issuch a manner to long.
I not burning out there are to many dogs that still need and owners that still need my care.


JL

I could say the same thing. You're not very much willing to read what we Cesar supporters have to say, either. So, follow your own advice.

I've stated many times I enjoy both Victoria and Cesar's techniques and learn from both shows. But, the reason I'm here is to defend Cesar which may make me look more one-sided than I truly am. I'm kind of trying to play Devil's advocate here and just look at the other side, just as you are. You're not very open to learning yourself.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Britster

I consider all those things abusive, too.

What did he do wrong with the Akita?

dog training gone bad

Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | National Geographic Channel


Many of you may be aware of a National Geographic television show featuring a charismatic individual who helps dog owners. I recently came across this video on the website and I urge you to watch it (preferably without the sound so as not to be distracted by his talking) and keep your eye on the dog. Here is what you will see:



Within the first 5 seconds, the handler kicks the dog in the abdomen. When the dog turns toward him he is jerked off his feet. A struggle ensues where the handler gets bitten several times and the dog is seen to be struggling for air. Finally he gets the dog onto the ground and the dogs tongue is blue and the dog is gasping for breath. When he finally gets the dog up it appears that there might be urine on the ground and that the dog voided his bladder in distress.



What you have witnessed is not dog training but abuse. Not only does the dog suffer, but clients are at risk if they attempt these interventions themselves. These are not appropriate measures and compromise the welfare of the dog and the safety of people. His explanations are false and not based on science as we know it. We as veterinarians must make our voices heard and let National Geographic and most importantly our clients know that these types of interventions are wrong and not in the best interest of dogs or people.



As a veterinary behaviorist I have dealt with behavior problems in companion animals for over 25 years and would never confront a dog this way. Not only would it be dangerous for me and the family, it would be harmful for the dog. My goal is diagnose the problem, and design humane treatment plans that help the family change the behavior of their dog so that they can safely live together. I hope all veterinarians can agree that this is the best approach.



I would love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, go to the link and scroll down the page to “contact us” and click on that. Let National Geographic know what you think.



Thank you for your time





Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB

[chachi]

I just watched the video and I didnt see him kick the dog in the stomach and I didnt see anything I would call abuse. Im gonna watch it again

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yes, that's very true. The number one thing Cesar always teaches is to be calm so when parents are spanking, they're not going to be calm. He never punishes out of anger - he just disciplines calmly.

I think it got brought up because people are claiming that Cesar hits and kicks his dogs and I was just trying to show the difference, because I don't believe that he abuses animals, but some say he does. As for the spanking, I guess my main point is that it never psychologically damaged any of my relatives who were spanked as kids; however, I don't think I could ever get myself to spank my own child.

Very true. He teaches that an angry person is an unstable person and you can not be pack leader if you are unstable.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by chachi

I just watched the video and I didnt see him kick the dog in the stomach and I didnt see anything I would call abuse. Im gonna watch it again

Right away he kicks the dog and then he cuts off the air supply for this dog...I would fight also if someone was choking off of my air supply. The dog can not even swollow.....this video makes me very angry....If I did this with one of my rescue's I deserve to be bitten.

Would you allow this to happen to your dogs?

P.S. I was wrong it was not an Akita but a huskey.

[YorkieMother]

Yeah kickings not abuse nor is choking it is just a dog.
Said shaking head and tongue in cheek.
As long as it behaves all is fair.
JL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by chachi

I just watched the video and I didnt see him kick the dog in the stomach and I didnt see anything I would call abuse. Im gonna watch it again

Exactly my perspective. What I did see is Cesar bumping the dog in the stomach to get his attention back on him. This very volatile dog was zoning in on the other dog being walked and Cesar simply bumped him with his foot. I would equate it to me tapping someone on the shoulder who was in an intense conversation.

The gross exaggerations by animal rights people do more harm than justice. It is like Peter crying Wolf - so when there really ARE cases of abuse way too many people just write it off as more of their blowing smoke.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I have and that is why I have studied many of the different methods out there because I have dogs that bite first and ask questions later...this is what abuse will do to a Yorkie. If I did the things he does to my biters I would be destroying these dogs. I know it for a fact...I do not believe in flooding, I don't believe in choke collars, prong collars etc because dogs are dogs no matter the size and I don't think you can have different standards based on the size of the dog. I don't believe in the Alpha role because I don't believe in that theory because they have proven it is bunk.

If you worked with a fear aggressive dog you would understand why what he did to that Akita was what I consider abuse. I consider it abuse to chain a dog in the backyard (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep a dog locked up in a kennel only large enough to move around in (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep pumping out puppies year after year (state laws don't)..I could go on with the list of things that I believe are abuse ..

Yorkiemother is claiming that Cesar is guilty of physical injurous abuse. That is what we are discussing.

I suppose anytime you do something that a dog is not happy with could be considered abuse. Some people consider eating in front of a dog and not sharing the food to be abusive.

And they h ave not proven anything of the sort. They just have their own theory. Nothing has been proven.

When ever there is a group of animals or people living together, there is going to be a leader. In the case of dogs, the leader eats first, the leader leads the pack. Where ever he/she goes, they go, by choice. If an unstable dog enters the pack, the leader will take care of him/her. he/she will either conform or be run off or killed.

They could not live together if there were not rules and a leader to enforce the rules.

The problem arrises when a pup has been removed fom his mother at 5 to 6 weeks of age before he has been taught proper dog behavior and language. They are taken into homes where they are cuddled and pampered until they mess on the floor and then theyh are kicked and chained outside. If they are fortunate, someone feeds and waters them regularly.

They do not understand human ways ecause nothing makes sense to them. hey do not understand or exhibit normal dog body language because they have never learned it. It must be awfully difficult to work with those dogs because they do not exhibit normal dog behavior, not do they know how rto read the trainers body language.

No matter how many aggressive dogs you have worked with, I doubt that it is anywhere near the number that Cesar has.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

dog training gone bad

Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | National Geographic Channel


Many of you may be aware of a National Geographic television show featuring a charismatic individual who helps dog owners. I recently came across this video on the website and I urge you to watch it (preferably without the sound so as not to be distracted by his talking) and keep your eye on the dog. Here is what you will see:



Within the first 5 seconds, the handler kicks the dog in the abdomen. When the dog turns toward him he is jerked off his feet. A struggle ensues where the handler gets bitten several times and the dog is seen to be struggling for air. Finally he gets the dog onto the ground and the dogs tongue is blue and the dog is gasping for breath. When he finally gets the dog up it appears that there might be urine on the ground and that the dog voided his bladder in distress.



What you have witnessed is not dog training but abuse. Not only does the dog suffer, but clients are at risk if they attempt these interventions themselves. These are not appropriate measures and compromise the welfare of the dog and the safety of people. His explanations are false and not based on science as we know it. We as veterinarians must make our voices heard and let National Geographic and most importantly our clients know that these types of interventions are wrong and not in the best interest of dogs or people.



As a veterinary behaviorist I have dealt with behavior problems in companion animals for over 25 years and would never confront a dog this way. Not only would it be dangerous for me and the family, it would be harmful for the dog. My goal is diagnose the problem, and design humane treatment plans that help the family change the behavior of their dog so that they can safely live together. I hope all veterinarians can agree that this is the best approach.



I would love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, go to the link and scroll down the page to “contact us” and click on that. Let National Geographic know what you think.



Thank you for your time





Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB

Are you talking about the same Akita I'm talking about? There was an episode featuring Roscoe, a fearful Akita, and I thought Cesar handled it wonderfully. That's what I thought you were talking about since it was mentioned earlier in the thread. That dog shown in the video is a Husky, not an Akita. I was wondering your opinion on the Akita you referred to.

As for the video you posted, I watched it first with no sound, and then with sound. What the author failed to mention was that the Husky first looked at the other dog, which could have triggered a possible attack, and at the moment that the Husky turned it's attention to the other dog, that's when Cesar nudged him with his foot in the dogs side to re-direct his attention elsewhere. Then of course, the dog flipped out on Cesar, which is expected, really. Cesar had to hold the leash up high as he was doing in order to not get injured himself worse. He wasn't purposely suffocating the dog, he was just getting it under control until he finally got the dog calm and in a surrender state. I also did not see any urine. Once he got the dog laying down, the dog looked totally calm and relaxed. However, I really do not like to judge one clip without seeing the episode in it's entirety.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Exactly my perspective. What I did see is Cesar bumping the dog in the stomach to get his attention back on him. This very volatile dog was zoning in on the other dog being walked and Cesar simply bumped him with his foot. I would equate it to me tapping someone on the shoulder who was in an intense conversation.

The gross exaggerations by animal rights people do more harm than justice. It is like Peter crying Wolf - so when there really ARE cases of abuse way too many people just write it off as more of their blowing smoke.

You all posted while I was typing my message, lol.