Is this a rape or not??

[chachi]

Originally Posted by gemy

Cha chi. REally not in a situation she couldn't say no. She lived in ICELAND. Probably 5-10 minute drive in any direction into wilderness. What is Iceland's pop maybe 360-400,000?

Have you ever been in the wilderness? Let's see Iceland in winter at -30 to 40 degree below zero, frostbite in 5minutes, hypothermia in 10 minutes.

This boy/man picks her up for coffee and instead of taking her to the Icleandic equivalent of star bucks, drives off (not too far) to the country

So what is she to do? Take me home? Awh come on now sweetie, no worries, let's just see the Northern Lights.

Does she REALLY have the option to say STOP let me out here? Sure if she wants to die in the cold.

So yeah I can see how she was in a situation that she would put her life in danger by saying NO

How do you know she was not in a more populated area. Im sorry the OP didnt give us that kind of info so you have to give advice based on the info given not making assumptions. I let my Husband read this and he said the pendelum has swung so far that a guy doesnt know what to do in a dating situation because they can so easily be accused of something. This thread says it loud and clear to me. I challenge all of you to let your Husband read this and get their perspective

[McheleM]

Originally Posted by gemy

Cha chi. REally not in a situation she couldn't say no. She lived in ICELAND. Probably 5-10 minute drive in any direction into wilderness. What is Iceland's pop maybe 360-400,000?

Population: 311,058


Rape statistics
Country 2008 2009
Iceland 87 68

[gemy]

Originally Posted by chachi

It is what I would tell my daughter because men have rights too and no man should be expected to read a womens mind that she didnt want to have sex yet actively participated in it which told him she did want it. Its like someone said if she were afraid of him why did she leave the coffee shop with him. Im sorry but as the OP has explained the story it was not rape.

Chachi first we "know a bit about Fido" the gal with the dog with LP. And according to her one and only post on this thread, they NEVER got to a coffee shop at all. He picked her up to go to a coffee shop, which apparently according to the post nev er materalized.

Fido's first language is not English. So I imagine she is trying to understand and translate all these posts. She reached out to us to try to figure out how to help her friend So why not do that ?

[chachi]

Actually I thought I was trying to help her I gave her my opinion based on the info that was given. But obviously some think theirs are the only opinions that should be heard. Im done with this thread so you will have to find someone else to argue with bye

[McheleM]

In an American court, the first thing a judge and attorney would ask is "did you say no?". "did you ask him to stop?". "did you try to fight him off?"

Yes, in a technical sense the girl was raped. She was scared and allowed something to happen that she didn't really want. However, because of her fear and her failure to say no, the man can honestly say "I didn't know she didn't want to". We know nothing about the people in question. We don't know their backgrounds or who they really are. Perhaps this woman makes a habit of not saying no. Perhaps the man makes a habit of preying on women who wont say no. Or perhaps this woman really wanted to and when things got out of hand didnt know how to handle things? Perhaps this man took her failure to say no as a sign that she really wanted to. Since we don't know either of them and none of us were there with them, it's really hard to say.
I know I've done things before and then regretted it later. I could have said no, but didn't. I don't feel I was raped. I just made a bad decision.

I don't believe women who dress scantily or provocative deserve to be raped, nor do I believe that all women "want it". I do believe that there are men in this world who do what they want and use fear to get women to give in. I also believe that women should speak up. Whether it be a loud and resounding NO, or a "I'm not going to allow this person to get away with this" I also believe that not all men are horrible creatures who use force and fear to get what they want. There are good men out there and often, they get lumped in with the bad guys. There are also bad women out there, who make it harder for the good women to be heard.

If the woman truly feels she was raped, be it date rape, acquaintance rape or whatever term we put to it, she needs to report it.

[dawn27]

Originally Posted by McheleM

In an American court, the first thing a judge and attorney would ask is "did you say no?". "did you ask him to stop?". "did you try to fight him off?"

Yes, in a technical sense the girl was raped. She was scared and allowed something to happen that she didn't really want. However, because of her fear and her failure to say no, the man can honestly say "I didn't know she didn't want to". We know nothing about the people in question. We don't know their backgrounds or who they really are. Perhaps this woman makes a habit of not saying no. Perhaps the man makes a habit of preying on women who wont say no. Or perhaps this woman really wanted to and when things got out of hand didnt know how to handle things? Perhaps this man took her failure to say no as a sign that she really wanted to. Since we don't know either of them and none of us were there with them, it's really hard to say.
I know I've done things before and then regretted it later. I could have said no, but didn't. I don't feel I was raped. I just made a bad decision.

I don't believe women who dress scantily or provocative deserve to be raped, nor do I believe that all women "want it". I do believe that there are men in this world who do what they want and use fear to get women to give in. I also believe that women should speak up. Whether it be a loud and resounding NO, or a "I'm not going to allow this person to get away with this" I also believe that not all men are horrible creatures who use force and fear to get what they want. There are good men out there and often, they get lumped in with the bad guys. There are also bad women out there, who make it harder for the good women to be heard.

If the woman truly feels she was raped, be it date rape, acquaintance rape or whatever term we put to it, she needs to report it.

Well said !!

I'm not sure why the OP has not come back to this thread. I would hope that she and her friend have at least read the opinions of everyone here. I hope that she is able to figure out for herself what actually took place and can take the appropriate steps. Whether it be to report this man or to do something, anything to be more prepared and to never allow herself to be in this type of situation again.

But speaking form experience... you just never know!

[RachelandSadie]

have to put my two cents in here. this is a strange one for me to happen to come back to YT and talk again for the first time in ages, but here goes:

As a woman who was date raped once before, I understand how your friend must have felt and what she went through. My situation was that I went to a friend's house to watch a movie with him and decided to spend the night there because of an ice storm. I wanted to kiss him and cuddle with him and allowed that to happen. Then he tried to take it further and place hands where I didn't want them. I said NO several times but he kept trying and at that point I felt very scared that maybe I didn't know this man as well as I had thought. I got scared that if I tried to leave he would hurt me even though he may not have. I let him touch me and even touched back because I was afraid if I showed him I was scared or didn't want to he would force me and it was easier to be somewhat in control than being hurt and forced. So that's what happened to me. It was horrible, terrifying, and I did leave in the morning feeling dirty and violated. I never wanted to speak to him again and didn't after that even when he tried to contact me again. He said as I left that he knew if a girl said NO and he kept trying she'd always give in. That's how I knew he was a serial date rapist. He doesn't force necessarily, but he goes past their NO and that's rape, he's making girls do things after they say NO and that's still rape. NO I have never reported him, and yes I have been in therapy for this. I don't report because I don't even remember his full name now, we never had intercourse, and because I don't want anyone that knows me to find out other than my husband who knows about it. I actually left his company that night for this other guy and what a stupid choice that was.

So in closing yes date rape is certainly rape even if the NO isn't as loud and out there as it should be, scaring someone into sexual acts is a bad thing PERIOD.

[Mom to Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by McheleM

In an American court, the first thing a judge and attorney would ask is "did you say no?". "did you ask him to stop?". "did you try to fight him off?"

Yes, in a technical sense the girl was raped. She was scared and allowed something to happen that she didn't really want. However, because of her fear and her failure to say no, the man can honestly say "I didn't know she didn't want to". We know nothing about the people in question. We don't know their backgrounds or who they really are. Perhaps this woman makes a habit of not saying no. Perhaps the man makes a habit of preying on women who wont say no. Or perhaps this woman really wanted to and when things got out of hand didnt know how to handle things? Perhaps this man took her failure to say no as a sign that she really wanted to. Since we don't know either of them and none of us were there with them, it's really hard to say.
I know I've done things before and then regretted it later. I could have said no, but didn't. I don't feel I was raped. I just made a bad decision.

I don't believe women who dress scantily or provocative deserve to be raped, nor do I believe that all women "want it". I do believe that there are men in this world who do what they want and use fear to get women to give in. I also believe that women should speak up. Whether it be a loud and resounding NO, or a "I'm not going to allow this person to get away with this" I also believe that not all men are horrible creatures who use force and fear to get what they want. There are good men out there and often, they get lumped in with the bad guys. There are also bad women out there, who make it harder for the good women to be heard.

If the woman truly feels she was raped, be it date rape, acquaintance rape or whatever term we put to it, she needs to report it.

My opinion:

this brings back to mind about Mike Tyson and the case of the young woman who accused him of rape. All that I remember of this particular case is that she went up to his room, removed an personal item...to me, what did she think was going to happen next? I certainly, DO NOT excuse what happened, but at what point is the woman responsible for any of the situation?

Please do not get me wrong, when a woman says "no", it should mean no. If a woman pushes the limit then she should also be accountable. I do not understand how a sober, conscious, capable person could openly go into a situation and then feel that they were treated wrongly.

No, a man should stop immediately when a woman says no, however if a woman is giving mixed signals--be it that they get themselves into a situation, do not say no, or just want to play by their own rules, how much of the responsibilty should the woman bear for the situation?

[chachi]

Originally Posted by Mom to Hot Rod

My opinion:

this brings back to mind about Mike Tyson and the case of the young woman who accused him of rape. All that I remember of this particular case is that she went up to his room, removed an personal item...to me, what did she think was going to happen next? I certainly, DO NOT excuse what happened, but at what point is the woman responsible for any of the situation?

Please do not get me wrong, when a woman says "no", it should mean no. If a woman pushes the limit then she should also be accountable. I do not understand how a sober, conscious, capable person could openly go into a situation and then feel that they were treated wrongly.

No, a man should stop immediately when a woman says no, however if a woman is giving mixed signals--be it that they get themselves into a situation, do not say no, or just want to play by their own rules, how much of the responsibilty should the woman bear for the situation?

exactly

[yorkietalkjilly]

I don't believe that every woman that dresses scantily for a social occasion or goes to a man's hotel room with him is asking for rape but she is taking a chance, given the world we live in today. Therefore, she has to bear some of the responsibility for her actions when interacting with men in how she dresses and what she does just in case she runs into or attracts the attention of the wrong type of man. We can't just dress or do whatever we would like and hope that nothing goes wrong - not in this world today.

Women that dress scantily to go out for the evening or go out with utter strangers have got to get with the reality of the world we live now! There are some real mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, testosterone-packed monsters out there(read the crime stories in the newspaper and magazines for a while and see) who live in a world of pornography, drugs and violence and have a most-distorted picture of women in general. And most of the women they see in that world dress scantily or less and really are "asking for it" for money. Plus, apparently a lot of young men drink a lot and take a lot of drugs, including steroids and testosterone, which lessens or destroys inhibitions, increases aggression and risk-taking, which males comes by naturally anyway. Should it be that way? Should women have to live and dress thinking about their safety and well-being all of the time? NO!!!!!! But it is thatway! I think that a woman has to realize that when she lives in a society today where a whole lot of men are far less than the ideal, due to steroids, alcohol and drugs, changing social roles and mores(have you seen or read how men treat women in many of today's movies, books and on television?!?!), and with 24/7 pornography, she has to do everything she can to try to stay safe and try not to attract the attention of the type of man she wants nothing to do with. So I don't believe a woman is responsibility-free to just do whatever she wants when out in the world today and then act shocked when something terrible happens to her.

This has nothing to do with the OP's original post about her friend and is addressing only the issue of whether or not a woman should be able to dress or go anywhere with a man and expect and have the right to be safe as was addressed in some later posts. I've seen women on TV rail on this subject endlessly about their rights to do whatever they want whenever they want and nobody should hold them one bit responsible for some male's response to that. They get red in the face and pound home the point of their rights. Well, of course, in a perfect world, women should - I'm the first to say we should have a right to total safety - but that is just not reality and the sooner more women realize what can happen with some of the scary/crazed men out there, the safer they will be.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I don't believe that every woman that dresses scantily for a social occasion or goes to a man's hotel room with him is asking for rape but she is taking a chance, given the world we live in today. Therefore, she has to bear some of the responsibility for her actions when interacting with men in how she dresses and what she does just in case she runs into or attracts the attention of the wrong type of man. We can't just dress or do whatever we would like and hope that nothing goes wrong - not in this world today.

Women that dress scantily to go out for the evening or go out with utter strangers have got to get with the reality of the world we live now! There are some real mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, testosterone-packed monsters out there(read the crime stories in the newspaper and magazines for a while and see) who live in a world of pornography, drugs and violence and have a most-distorted picture of women in general. And most of the women they see in that world dress scantily or less and really are "asking for it" for money. Plus, apparently a lot of young men drink a lot and take a lot of drugs, including steroids and testosterone, which lessens or destroys inhibitions, increases aggression and risk-taking, which males comes by naturally anyway. Should it be that way? Should women have to live and dress thinking about their safety and well-being all of the time? NO!!!!!! But it is thatway! I think that a woman has to realize that when she lives in a society today where a whole lot of men are far less than the ideal, due to steroids, alcohol and drugs, changing social roles and mores(have you seen or read how men treat women in many of today's movies, books and on television?!?!), and with 24/7 pornography, she has to do everything she can to try to stay safe and try not to attract the attention of the type of man she wants nothing to do with. So I don't believe a woman is responsibility-free to just do whatever she wants when out in the world today and then act shocked when something terrible happens to her.

This has nothing to do with the OP's original post about her friend and is addressing only the issue of whether or not a woman should be able to dress or go anywhere with a man and expect and have the right to be safe as was addressed in some later posts. I've seen women on TV rail on this subject endlessly about their rights to do whatever they want whenever they want and nobody should hold them one bit responsible for some male's response to that. They get red in the face and pound home the point of their rights. Well, of course, in a perfect world, women should - I'm the first to say we should have a right to total safety - but that is just not reality and the sooner more women realize what can happen with some of the scary/crazed men out there, the safer they will be.

I agree you have to be realistic to what society is today and yes there are Men out there up to no good so why intice them. It is also a matter of having some self respect and self worth. And that comes from the inside not the outside.

[McheleM]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree you have to be realistic to what society is today and yes there are Men out there up to no good so why intice them. It is also a matter of having some self respect and self worth. And that comes from the inside not the outside.

I agree. When women's dresses were down to their ankles, rape stats were way lower!!!

Of course when 15 year olds were allowed to get married and took over the family farm, teen pregnancy rates were way lower too!


I'm sorry but if you are going to a bedroom with a man, don't be upset when he wants to play on the bed. That's like taking a toddler to the park and telling him he can't play on the swings. As a woman, you have to be responsible for your actions-wearing a skirt where your true hair color is showing doesn't exactly say "coffee and bagels".

[McheleM]

Originally Posted by McheleM

I agree. When women's dresses were down to their ankles, rape stats were way lower!!!

Of course when 15 year olds were allowed to get married and took over the family farm, teen pregnancy rates were way lower too!


I'm sorry but if you are going to a bedroom with a man, don't be upset when he wants to play on the bed. That's like taking a toddler to the park and telling him he can't play on the swings. As a woman, you have to be responsible for your actions-wearing a skirt where your true hair color is showing doesn't exactly say "coffee and bagels".

of course, that doesn't mean she deserves to be raped, but I can see in our society, where guys would think differently.



It wouldn't let me edit....

[chachi]

Originally Posted by McheleM

I agree. When women's dresses were down to their ankles, rape stats were way lower!!!

Of course when 15 year olds were allowed to get married and took over the family farm, teen pregnancy rates were way lower too!


I'm sorry but if you are going to a bedroom with a man, don't be upset when he wants to play on the bed. That's like taking a toddler to the park and telling him he can't play on the swings. As a woman, you have to be responsible for your actions-wearing a skirt where your true hair color is showing doesn't exactly say "coffee and bagels".

Yep they didnt call those the good ole days for nothing. That was when someones word actually meant something too

[Mom to Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree you have to be realistic to what society is today and yes there are Men out there up to no good so why intice them. It is also a matter of having some self respect and self worth. And that comes from the inside not the outside.

As for the original question of this thread, would I call what happened rape? Probably not. Did she deserve what happened to her? Absolutely not if she did not want it to. But did she do anything that would indicate to the man that she did not want him to do what he did?

I have never found myself in this position but I could think of one thing that would give him a solid idea that I did not want his advances...a swift kick in the groin. And I'd like to think that I would not find myself driven out to a remote area with someone I did not want to be there with.