"I don't consider her a woman"

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

VERY strange! First I thought maybe they could have meant it as a compliment -- you know, just including you as "one of the guys" as I got similar comments when I was in the Navy. They were said with friendship. But since you said they have been doing this all along, I can't figure it. I agree with everyone here -- you are gorgeous and very feminine looking. My guess is you wound up with several who just enjoy finding a person's "BUTTON" and pushing it to the extreme. Hold your head high and know that you are both intelligent & beautiful. Those qualities will stay long after these cads have realized what idiots they have been.

At first that is what I thought too, until I realized that they would go out on the weekends and they would invite everyone in the class BUT me...very difficult to feel as "one of the guys" when I only get made fun of but never invited to go out and have fun, OR tell me when they're meeting up to work on homework assignments...I usually end up having to do everything by myself

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by linz06

To begin with, in college there was one guy who hated women in engineering, and he did a speech for a communications class, about how women should stick to being nurses and cheerleaders

When I was starting out in the work force I had to do materials testing. Concrete trucks would come to site and I'd test their concrete and if it wasn't up to spec, they'd have to be sent away, and drivers are NOT happy about that. A lot try to put in extra stuff to clean out their trucks, which throws off their batch. So if I failed their concrete, I got a lot of "STUPID GIRL" and tons of "She doesn't know what the **** she's doing" Same with testing soil density on construction sites. A few times they called a different company (who only employed males!) to come and test to check my results I was always right.

I also had many creepy old men call me "baby" instead of my name, which made me feel pretty violated My male coworkers started to get angry when they'd go out to some of my jobs when I was busy and the guys on site would say things like "You were way hotter the last time you were here" I mean, it's not like I could help it. I'm a girl, but I wore the same old dirty jeans, t-shirts, vests, and hard hats that all the guys had!

Now that I'm primarily based in the office, I don't deal with it as much except one old engineer who is just finally letting me start working on his projects. Before this, he'd go to every other possible (male) outlet before asking me for help.

I still find it hard to deal with though, I don't have a thick skin, and I don't think I ever will.

I know it's tough, but hopefully when you're done school you will not have to deal with them anymore

How were you able to cope with all of this?! I always think that I can handle anything and then the comments just get progressively worse/more surprising and more hurtful and I feel the same way I felt when I hurt the first comment.

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by boopster

I would have said "That's OK - because I don't consider you a man!" But then I have an unfortunate tendency to blurt out things like that when under pressure.

I looked at your picture, and you are a beautiful young woman, so don't let anyone make you think otherwise. Sounds like you are in a program with some men who are immature and threatened by you.

Other than gritting your teeth and living through this period, I don't know what you can do except work to outshine these jerks. There are sexual harrassment laws that apply to students. If your school is in the U.S., it is subject to Title IX of the education amendments of 1972, and they are subject to some nasty repercussions if they knowingly allow harassment to take place.

Sexual harassment does not require the expectation of sexual activity. It can be as "simple" as the creation of a hostile environment based on your gender. The comment and laughter in front of your program director should have been enough in my mind to require that she take steps to stop it and/or report it.

Your school is required to have a policy on sexual harassment and a procedure for reporting it. You will probably find that information in your student handbook. Retaliation against someone for reporting sexual harassment is illegal. Unfortunately, there are a lot of subtle ways of retaliating against someone that might not meet the standard of proof in court -- such as the silent treatment from your fellow students or extra scrutiny of your performance if evaluations are subjective. So as an outsider, I would recommend that you think long and hard about the possible outcome if you did complain.

Also - you might be tempted to have a private talk with a professor or your program director about these issues. If you do, you should know that they have a legal obligation to report any complaints or observed incidents even if you ask for confidentiality.

Having been on the receiving end of a hostile environment situation many years ago, I think I understand how you feel. I held my head up as high as I could, did the best work I could, and watched the people involved get fired one by one for other reasons. Because when someone pulls that kind of thing, their ethics and behavior have a tendency to be lacking in other areas as well.

Thank you for the information. The director did not overhear the comment that was made, otherwise she would have definitely said something about it. I wasn't even aware that what they were doing was sexual harassment, but considering they are constantly talking about my looks you are absolutely right...it certainly is sexual harassment. I really appreciate you warning me about speaking with a faculty member and the consequences. There is one professor that I'm extremely close to but I wouldn't want to put him in the position where he would have to report it (HE is a bit of a feminist lol). I guess I have a lot of thinking to do and just somehow deal with it...it's just that graduate school is difficult enough as it is, without the addition of so much animosity

[ErinsWhitney]

I know it's easier said than done, but I'd say don't even give them a second thought. You are gorgeous, and obviously very smart. It may be cliched but it sounds like the are totally intimidated. Some guys are just sexist pigs and there is no amount of education that will change them. They wont get far in their career with that attitude, it will most definitely catch up to them at some point. Keep your head up! They don't deserve the time you are putting into stressing about their opinion of you.

[rtsmichele]

Just looked at your picture . . . after reading your comment, I'm sorry, but I expected you to be homely or at least plain. God - you're gorgeous!!!! These guys are obviously feeling threatened by a beautiful woman with brains! I would try to ignore them. They're not worth feeling badly about. There ARE GOOD men out there.

[boopster]

Have you thought about trying the "divide and conquer" technique? Are a couple of them perhaps less annoying than the rest or on the fringes? You might try inviting them to study with you in a neutral/safe location.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

Thank you for the information. The director did not overhear the comment that was made, otherwise she would have definitely said something about it. I wasn't even aware that what they were doing was sexual harassment, but considering they are constantly talking about my looks you are absolutely right...it certainly is sexual harassment. I really appreciate you warning me about speaking with a faculty member and the consequences. There is one professor that I'm extremely close to but I wouldn't want to put him in the position where he would have to report it (HE is a bit of a feminist lol). I guess I have a lot of thinking to do and just somehow deal with it...it's just that graduate school is difficult enough as it is, without the addition of so much animosity

I'd be very careful about going down the sexual harassment path, true sexual harassment is really horrible, and they aren't only making fun of your looks. Remember, men are no more than little boys, I don't know if you've had brothers and learned that their sense of humor is different, but I think girls who grow up with boys have an easier time. They tease each other all the time, and put each other down all the time; they laugh it off though. This is really the way many men connect with each other, they don't compliment each other, they insult each other. I mean have you ever heard a man say to another man, "I really like those shoes your wearing today." My grown sons still tease each other and tease me about everything, I think I've heard compliments from time to time, to each other, "Cool shirt," but mainly it's teasing. My advice is to learn to laugh it off, and if you want to be accepted by them as an equal you will have to gain their acceptance by manning up! Learn to laugh at their dumb jokes if possible. Be careful not to destroy them, they have fragile egos, believe it or not. I really don't think they can take much teasing from a woman. Ask to be included in the study secessions, tell them you'll bring some cookies. Men eventually learn, that they like to be around woman more than they like to be around men. Give them time, and have pity on them, its not easy being a man either. After seeing your picture, I'll bet you intimidate them, you're very pretty.

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by boopster

Have you thought about trying the "divide and conquer" technique? Are a couple of them perhaps less annoying than the rest or on the fringes? You might try inviting them to study with you in a neutral/safe location.

Yes, actually when I am alone with any of them they are EXTREMELY NICE TO ME, when they are around each other, then one of them will make a comment and the other ones will laugh...they all make comments equally so it's not as if only one is making all the comments and the others laugh...it's almost as if they take turns at poking me...this is why the comments are almost always unexpected because I'll talk to each of them one on one and everything is fine, until it's a social setting and then the attacks start...I'm always taken aback by them.

[Maxman]

I'm a guy,and,for what it's worth,I think your pretty hot!So,I don't know what those guys are talking about.Your probably out of their league.Your beautiful.Smile,stop crying.

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'd be very careful about going down the sexual harassment path, true sexual harassment is really horrible, and they aren't only making fun of your looks. Remember, men are no more than little boys, I don't know if you've had brothers and learned that their sense of humor is different, but I think girls who grow up with boys have an easier time. They tease each other all the time, and put each other down all the time; they laugh it off though. This is really the way many men connect with each other, they don't compliment each other, they insult each other. I mean have you ever heard a man say to another man, "I really like those shoes your wearing today." My grown sons still tease each other and tease me about everything, I think I've heard compliments from time to time, to each other, "Cool shirt," but mainly it's teasing. My advice is to learn to laugh it off, and if you want to be accepted by them as an equal you will have to gain their acceptance by manning up! Learn to laugh at their dumb jokes if possible. Be careful not to destroy them, they have fragile egos, believe it or not. I really don't think they can take much teasing from a woman. Ask to be included in the study secessions, tell them you'll bring some cookies. Men eventually learn, that they like to be around woman more than they like to be around men. Give them time, and have pity on them, its not easy being a man either. After seeing your picture, I'll bet you intimidate them, you're very pretty.

Thank you Nancy. I wasn't planning on going down the sexual harassment path--it's definitely not something that I'm willing to put myself through. I only have one older brother and never really went through much teasing in that respect, but growing up I did always end up being "one of the boys" as I always got along better with boys than with girls. Somewhere along the lines that changed however, and I think I may have just become more sensitive than I once was due to my own insecurities. I think I have stepped on their egos as you've said because one time when one of them tried embarrassing me in public I embarrassed him right back...and I'm pretty sure after that was when I stopped being invited to group study sessions/social activities. After that, I stopped being sarcastic right back and really nothing has changed except that the comments have gotten pretty harsh and I'm still isolated. As I mentioned a little earlier, this is only in a group setting when all 4 of them are together. Whenever I talk to any of them one on one they are extremely nice to me, even complimentary...which is why I am extremely confused by the situation. I know I have to grow a thicker skin, but I guess I just feel lonely not only having to do schoolwork all the time, but then not even really having any friends here that I can talk to...either way what I'm trying to say is that yes at first I thought it was just them making me out to be one of the guys, but when I started being excluded from group work is when I thought that the way they were treating me was a result of something else...

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Maxman

I'm a guy,and,for what it's worth,I think your pretty hot!So,I don't know what those guys are talking about.Your probably out of their league.Your beautiful.Smile,stop crying.

Thank you, I appreciate it...even though I don't think that should have anything to do with it...I think everyone should treat each other with respect..

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

Thank you Nancy. I wasn't planning on going down the sexual harassment path--it's definitely not something that I'm willing to put myself through. I only have one older brother and never really went through much teasing in that respect, but growing up I did always end up being "one of the boys" as I always got along better with boys than with girls. Somewhere along the lines that changed however, and I think I may have just become more sensitive than I once was due to my own insecurities. I think I have stepped on their egos as you've said because one time when one of them tried embarrassing me in public I embarrassed him right back...and I'm pretty sure after that was when I stopped being invited to group study sessions/social activities. After that, I stopped being sarcastic right back and really nothing has changed except that the comments have gotten pretty harsh and I'm still isolated. As I mentioned a little earlier, this is only in a group setting when all 4 of them are together. Whenever I talk to any of them one on one they are extremely nice to me, even complimentary...which is why I am extremely confused by the situation. I know I have to grow a thicker skin, but I guess I just feel lonely not only having to do schoolwork all the time, but then not even really having any friends here that I can talk to...either way what I'm trying to say is that yes at first I thought it was just them making me out to be one of the guys, but when I started being excluded from group work is when I thought that the way they were treating me was a result of something else...

Yes this can backfire if you want to be accepted by them, they probably are scared. Next time they tease you could agree with them. If they comment on your clothes, or say you dress funny, you could agree and say, "Yeah, it's never been my strength, I need some tips". Agreeing with someone who's teasing you, takes the fun out of it, I mean they do like to see how you'll react. The other guys are laughing just because they want to be accepted by each other. I think women have no idea how fragile men are, have mercy on them! I went to school with David Letterman, that guy could tease.

[RachelandSadie]

i've been in your shoes love. all through school people especially boys told me i was ugly and stupid and made me feel like crap....take a look at my photo albums...i'm not ugly and i never was...AND neither are you. you are absolutely beautiful and those men are crazy not to see that too. I agree with Nancy that you don't want to make your life any harder than it already is around them so even though what they are doing is WRONG they are ruthless and will only consider you a tattle tale for it. i don't think you'll work up to acceptance, but if you just laugh it off it shows character and the ability to be comfortable with who you are even when they are trying to pick at you and bring you down. i've finally learned in life to make fun of myself long before anyone else can do it to me and finally i'm well liked by people around me. i'm always happy, always laughing, and ready to tell people that i'm crazy, a mess, that i look like a duck, or other stupid and silly comments about myself so that they don't have a chance to pick at me first.

good luck and i hope it gets better. if it doesn't just know that you are BEAUTIFUL...like SMOKING HOTT beautiful and don't let the jerks bring you down. they're intimidated that you are probably smarter and better in school then them and they have nothing else to do to make themselves feel like a man or better than you.

[yorkieusa]

Originally Posted by boopster

I would have said "That's OK - because I don't consider you a man!"

What a great response that would be to those jerks!

Rose, you are absolutely beautiful! Many men feel threatened by intelligent women. You have received some great advice already. There is a lot of difference in someone teasing you because they like you and people doing what they're doing. If there were other women in that class, I'm betting this wouldn't be happening.

[roseylovestosho]

Thank you so much to all of you for making me feel better...I have to work on not letting it get to me so much...I'm a pretty sensitive person and so at least today I just pretended like I didn't hear them and continued well on my way, but when I get home is when I crumble. I've learned to be strong enough to keep a brave face in public, but I want it to get to a point where it doesn't bother me in private either. I really appreciate everyone's support, I feel very encouraged...and I can always count on Teddy to put a smile on my face...when I got home today I just hugged him A LOT. Haha if he only knew how much better that made me feel!