what do you think of a chocolate yorkie?

[La Princesa]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

What's the difference between gold and tan? It seems kindof dumb to me to disqualify black and gold colors from the standards as there doesn't seem to be much difference between black and blue (the dark steel blue, not silver) and gold and tan. A black and gold yorkie looks to be just as much of a yorkie as a blue and tan one does. Now chocolates, all golds, and partis do not automatically look like yorkies to me.

there is a huge difference between gold and Tan. My Kamikaze is tan and has some gold because of where it is, it reminds me of pee pee stans when compared to the tan he has. Since i have one that has gold coloring I can tell you the difference is huge

[Pinehaven]

[QUOTE=yorkiekist;1348448]Has anyone ever studied yorkie genetics? The true yorkie does not carry the piebald gene. The only way they could have gotten it was through mix breeding.(probably maltese or shih-tzu) This, no doubt, happen generations ago and would be extremely difficult to trace. [QUOTE]

Since no one has ever DNA'd the unpapered, terrier type dogs who were used to begin this breed, how can you say that the true yorkie doesn't carry the piebald gene? What makes a true yorkie true? God did not create the Yorkshire terrier, man did, by using countless numbers of dogs - dogs without pedigrees, or traceable heritage. These founding dogs had certain characteristics that their owners wanted to reproduce and improve on. I'm sure some people were more conscious about what they let their dogs breed to but I'm guessing that many of the founding dogs had the run of the land and "fell in love" with whom ever they wished.

So, if you can walk into a dog shelter and tell me the exact genetic makeup of all the unpapered dogs in that kennel, well, do you think you could also give me the winning number for the next multi million dollar lotto or tell me when we will have world peace? ;-)

[QUOTE] There was a show breeder that got piebald puppies and after thinking about it, determined there was a mix in the pedigree and had the dogs spayed and neutered. Its funny that 99.9 percent of the show breeders do not come up with color faults, and its mostly the back yard breeders that do. [QUOTE]

If the majority of the show breeders feel the way the show breeders in this thread do, than it's more likely that 99% of the show breeders won't admit when they come up with color faults.

[QUOTE] To the person who has Nikko everywhere in the pedigree: Did you personally get the dog from Gloria Lipman? I have never heard of Nikko producing odd colored puppies. I have never heard a bad thing about that kennel. [QUOTE]

I purchased my guy through Summit Yorkies, they are one of the two california parti breeders who had numerous litters and generations of dogs, DNA'd in order for AKC to allow the parti color to be registered. Summit Yorkies had the first AKC Registered parti yorkie (from this Nikko line). My boy was promoted by Summit Yorkies when he was about 10 weeks old, he flew out to VA at 12 weeks. Looking at the copy of the registration application that I made before sending off to AKC, Breeder and Litter owners were Starla Harris and Gloria Lipman using a Mt. Israel Rd, Escondido, CA mailing address. Both ladies signed the paperwork and transfered the dog directly to me.

Though Nikkos kennels doesn't have any parti colored yorkies pictured on their website (and I don't know if she owns a parti) there are a number of photos of pups with big white chests (parti carriers).

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Has anyone ever studied yorkie genetics? The true yorkie does not carry the piebald gene. The only way they could have gotten it was through mix breeding.(probably maltese or shih-tzu) This, no doubt, happen generations ago and would be extremely difficult to trace. There was a show breeder that got piebald puppies and after thinking about it, determined there was a mix in the pedigree and had the dogs spayed and neutered. Its funny that 99.9 percent of the show breeders do not come up with color faults, and its mostly the back yard breeders that do. To the person who has Nikko everywhere in the pedigree: Did you personally get the dog from Gloria Lipman? I have never heard of Nikko producing odd colored puppies. I have never heard a bad thing about that kennel. Ever hear about unethical breeders switching AKC papers before AKC Limited registration came out? That was a common occurance. And then there are the byb's with 2 or more different breeds. Oops, the male Maltese bred the Yorkie. I will register them all as Yorkies. No one will know and they will all be sold with AKC papers and breeding rights. This was a common occurence not that many years ago. And I wonder where that piebald gene came from 10 years later??? And you wonder why the show breeders wont sell puppies unless they are on AKC Limited/spay/neuter contracts. The show breedes are the ones that put their blood, sweat and tears into every litter. They were the ones footing the bill for research to battle genetic problems. The show breeders are the ones giving 100%, 24/7, 365 days per year. They are always reading and up-dating their knowlege with the only goal of betterment for the breed. The back yard breeders are only riding on the show breeders coat tails.
Boy, did I ever open a can of worms!!! Lynn

I believe that most of us have studied the yorkie genetics. How do you know that there wasn't a piebald gene in the original yorkie makeup? There is no way to know that. True they think it possibly came from a maltese, but the yorkie was made from so many different breeds who is to say that one of those dogs did not carry the gene.

Records were spotty way back then, many of the people who bred them couldn't even read or write.

I am not sure on this but I believe that the first known parti was born to Gloria Lipmann herself. It is no secret that they came from her line.

Before the partis were accepted by the AKC, they were DNA's extensively and it was proven to their satisfaction that they did indeed come from the parents that they were said to have come freom and that those parents were purebred registered yhorkshire terriers. The line that I urchased fro are descendents of Ch Rolls Royce Ashley. He sired the firdst registered parti color Nikko's Mickey Spillane.

Now if he had not come from the Nikko line, I doubt that they would have allowed the Nikko name to be used.

It is untrue that it is mostly backyard breeders that came up with the original parti coloreds. Small hobby breeders and Byb breeders are the ones who are breeding them now, but some of the original parti coloreds came from Champion lines.

I am sure that there are many parti coloreds out there that were produced through mixed breeding, which is why one has to be extra careful when they buy them. You have to know the breeder, but that is true with traditional colored yorkies also.

I've done my home work, I know what I am talking about or I would not have taken a stand. I don't argue unless I know I am right.

It is true that the show breeders but a lot of time and money into their dogs, and I am not taking that away from them, I am only asking that they respect my right to do the same thing with my partis in an effort to further develop the dogs as a breed of their own.

My hope is to see the beautiful silky flowing coat in black and white and tan. Not all non show breeders are disreputable and irresponsible, and if they allowed us to show our dogs, then maybe we would.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

The mixing makes the most sense to me so far as the parti-yorkies. I've always thought they looked like they had a yorkie face with shih tzu coloring. In fact, when I was describing them to someone I said they remind me of a shih tzu.

So far as the blondes and chocolates, I can see that happening as it's really just a mild variation in the yorkie's true colors. The chocolate is a dilution.

But anyway, without a lot of knowledge on the matter, I've always suspected the partis started with some kind of mix a really long long time ago.

They yorkie breed itself is just a hodge podge mix so there is no way of knowing which dog carried the gene because there is no way of knowing which dogs were used to make up the breed.

When they first started the breed, they were not after the long silky coat with a blue coat and tan face, and not all of them had that. they just wanted a small dog.

It was only after the aristocrats got ahold of them and started breeding for specific traits that those traits were developed. that is one of the reasons why there are so many different sizes and coat textures. They are a hodge podge of genes and any gene can be thrown at any time.

The standard has been changed several times over the years to accomodate the desire of the people.

[JeanieK]

Pinehaven: Since no one has ever DNA'd the unpapered, terrier type dogs who were used to begin this breed, how can you say that the true yorkie doesn't carry the piebald gene? What makes a true yorkie true? God did not create the Yorkshire terrier, man did, by using countless numbers of dogs - dogs without pedigrees, or traceable heritage. These founding dogs had certain characteristics that their owners wanted to reproduce and improve on. I'm sure some people were more conscious about what they let their dogs breed to but I'm guessing that many of the founding dogs had the run of the land and "fell in love" with whom ever they wished.

I'd like to elaborate a little bit more on this, and suggest that it is possible that not every yorkie was made up of the same mix of dogs.

One guy mixed a few dogs together and got a smaller dog, another guy did the same thing but with different dogs. Eventually they started breeding their dogs together and producing the yorkie breed. So it is possible that not every original line had the same makeup of dogs.

[JeanieK]

Here is the way that I think and hope it will go.

After there are enough interested people, the parti breeders will start to show or compare their dogs amoung themselves. A club will be formed.

Through the comparing, it will be determined which color pattern and coat textures etc are the most desired amd standards will be set.

When it is firmly established, standards have been set and the desired traits become more predictable, and a name has been selected for the breed they will begin to petition AKC for the right to show these dogs under their new name.

I have no idea what it takes, but I'm guessing if enough people and enough money is behind it, AKC will allow it.

It is rather amusing that the YTCA feels that they can exclude these dogs because they are the wrong color, while at the same time denying that they are yorkies.

If they aren't yorkies then they should be able to be developed into a breed of their own.

In the beginning these dogs were shown along with Scotch Terriers, then, because their hair split in the middle, they were distinguished from other Scotch Terriers as "broken Haired Scotch Terriers" . Then, because the breed was so improved in Yorkshire, a reporter suggested that they be called Yorkshire Terriers, and the name stuck.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Here is the way that I think and hope it will go.

After there are enough interested people, the parti breeders will start to show or compare their dogs amoung themselves. A club will be formed.

Through the comparing, it will be determined which color pattern and coat textures etc are the most desired amd standards will be set.

When it is firmly established, standards have been set and the desired traits become more predictable, and a name has been selected for the breed they will begin to petition AKC for the right to show these dogs under their new name.

I have no idea what it takes, but I'm guessing if enough people and enough money is behind it, AKC will allow it.

It is rather amusing that the YTCA feels that they can exclude these dogs because they are the wrong color, while at the same time denying that they are yorkies.

If they aren't yorkies then they should be able to be developed into a breed of their own.

In the beginning these dogs were shown along with Scotch Terriers, then, because their hair split in the middle, they were distinguished from other Scotch Terriers as "broken Haired Scotch Terriers" . Then, because the breed was so improved in Yorkshire, a reporter suggested that they be called Yorkshire Terriers, and the name stuck.

It might serve you well to contact the AKC, just for interest sake to find out what is all required to have a new breed recognized. There is no such thing as 'petitioning' AKC or Canadian Kennel Club for that matter here in Canada. There are certain criteria that must be met, records over many years that must be kept and once everything is in place, a submission by the new breed club to the AKC along with the appropriate fee. Here in Canada a new breed submission is also voted on by the members in good standing of the Canadian Kennel Club before it is recognized. These are members of ALL breeds not just the ones for the new breed.
Or if you know someone who is a fancier of a breed recently recognized, ask them what they went through. The Toy Fox Terrier comes to mind as that breed was recognized only last year in Canada and a few years ago in AKC.
Then you might understand what a parent Club for any breed is and what their role is.
You can't walk into an operating theater and tell a surgeon how to do his/her job. You can't stand on the outside of the registered purebred world and tell us how to do it. Get involved and learn.

[Lorraine]

[QUOTE=Pinehaven;1348590][QUOTE=yorkiekist;1348448]Has anyone ever studied yorkie genetics? The true yorkie does not carry the piebald gene. The only way they could have gotten it was through mix breeding.(probably maltese or shih-tzu) This, no doubt, happen generations ago and would be extremely difficult to trace. [QUOTE]

Since no one has ever DNA'd the unpapered, terrier type dogs who were used to begin this breed, how can you say that the true yorkie doesn't carry the piebald gene? What makes a true yorkie true? God did not create the Yorkshire terrier, man did, by using countless numbers of dogs - dogs without pedigrees, or traceable heritage. These founding dogs had certain characteristics that their owners wanted to reproduce and improve on. I'm sure some people were more conscious about what they let their dogs breed to but I'm guessing that many of the founding dogs had the run of the land and "fell in love" with whom ever they wished.

So, if you can walk into a dog shelter and tell me the exact genetic makeup of all the unpapered dogs in that kennel, well, do you think you could also give me the winning number for the next multi million dollar lotto or tell me when we will have world peace? ;-)

[QUOTE] There was a show breeder that got piebald puppies and after thinking about it, determined there was a mix in the pedigree and had the dogs spayed and neutered. Its funny that 99.9 percent of the show breeders do not come up with color faults, and its mostly the back yard breeders that do. [QUOTE]

If the majority of the show breeders feel the way the show breeders in this thread do, than it's more likely that 99% of the show breeders won't admit when they come up with color faults.

[QUOTE] To the person who has Nikko everywhere in the pedigree: Did you personally get the dog from Gloria Lipman? I have never heard of Nikko producing odd colored puppies. I have never heard a bad thing about that kennel.

I purchased my guy through Summit Yorkies, they are one of the two california parti breeders who had numerous litters and generations of dogs, DNA'd in order for AKC to allow the parti color to be registered. Summit Yorkies had the first AKC Registered parti yorkie (from this Nikko line). My boy was promoted by Summit Yorkies when he was about 10 weeks old, he flew out to VA at 12 weeks. Looking at the copy of the registration application that I made before sending off to AKC, Breeder and Litter owners were Starla Harris and Gloria Lipman using a Mt. Israel Rd, Escondido, CA mailing address. Both ladies signed the paperwork and transfered the dog directly to me.

Though Nikkos kennels doesn't have any parti colored yorkies pictured on their website (and I don't know if she owns a parti) there are a number of photos of pups with big white chests (parti carriers).

A breeder cannot admit to something that did not happen. I still have never had and never known any of my show breeder friends that have had a parti colour of any sort.
Dna's currently only will tell you who the parents aren't if there was an oops. It won't tell you if there was an oops further back to where the Dna samples were taken.

[Lorraine]

Genetics of the YOrkie. I posted this once it was ignored I'll try it again.
http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I am not sure on this but I believe that the first known parti was born to Gloria Lipmann herself. It is no secret that they came from her line.

The parti color has been popping up in our breed for many, many years - since the early days of the breed. Some were public knowledge but many others were kept hush, hush.

According to Alex Gesmundo of Summit Yorkies, she bred the first fully AKC registered and recognized “Parti-Color Yorkshire Terrier."

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

It might serve you well to contact the AKC, just for interest sake to find out what is all required to have a new breed recognized. There is no such thing as 'petitioning' AKC or Canadian Kennel Club for that matter here in Canada. There are certain criteria that must be met, records over many years that must be kept and once everything is in place, a submission by the new breed club to the AKC along with the appropriate fee. Here in Canada a new breed submission is also voted on by the members in good standing of the Canadian Kennel Club before it is recognized. These are members of ALL breeds not just the ones for the new breed.
Or if you know someone who is a fancier of a breed recently recognized, ask them what they went through. The Toy Fox Terrier comes to mind as that breed was recognized only last year in Canada and a few years ago in AKC.
Then you might understand what a parent Club for any breed is and what their role is.
You can't walk into an operating theater and tell a surgeon how to do his/her job. You can't stand on the outside of the registered purebred world and tell us how to do it. Get involved and learn.

If and When the time comes that parti breeders are ready to take that step, I am sure we will learn all that we need to know. When it becomes necessary those who are behind it will get involved and learn

No one is trying to tell anyone how to do anything. Well except for you trying to tell me how to do things.

I just said this is what I hope for in regards to the parti colored yorkies.

As for the parent club, if they claim that the parti coloreds aren't even yorkies, how can the YTCA be their parent club.

Where there is a will, there is a way. I am sure many things have taken place within the AKC that naysayers have said would/could never happen.

I know that there is a lot involved, but nothing is impossible.

Why do you personally have a problem with that. or with me for that matter? Why do you even care if they are developed into a breed of their own? they are beautiful wonderful little dogs, that there appears to be a whole lot of interest in, so why should they be left to fade into obscurity?

They pose no threat to the traditional yorkies and they are no threat to you personally. So what is your problem?

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

A breeder cannot admit to something that did not happen. I still have never had and never known any of my show breeder friends that have had a parti colour of any sort.
Dna's currently only will tell you who the parents aren't if there was an oops. It won't tell you if there was an oops further back to where the Dna samples were taken.

Lorraine, what breeder are you referring to, that isn't admitting to something that did not happen?

Never say never ... you never heard that the Nikkos lines produced parti, so if that show breeder produced parti (and you were unaware) why do you feel that there aren't more (that you're unaware of).

Just because a yorkie is Blue and tan and has 10 generations of champions,
doesn't mean there there are no "oops" in their bloodlines ... just means that the "oops" hasn't displayed itself yet.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Genetics of the YOrkie. I posted this once it was ignored I'll try it again.
http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html

Just because someone posts something on the internet, does not make it gospel. No one knows for sure exdfactly which dogs were used to make up the dogs that were used to creat the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Most of thoe early founders were unregistered mixed breeds.

There is no way possible that anyone could know for certain tht there was not a piebald gene in the mix.

Back in the early 1860's the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were both shown in the same class as broken haired scottish terriers. it wasn't until 1864 that the Maltese were given a class of there own.

keeping that in mind, it is very possible, and more likely than not, that the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were bred together as Broken haired Scottish Terriers.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Lorraine, what breeder are you referring to, that isn't admitting to something that did not happen?

Never say never ... you never heard that the Nikkos lines produced parti, so if that show breeder produced parti (and you were unaware) why do you feel that there aren't more (that you're unaware of).

Just because a yorkie is Blue and tan and has 10 generations of champions,
doesn't mean there there are no "oops" in their bloodlines ... just means that the "oops" hasn't displayed itself yet.

Or that no one is owning up to it. In the past show breeders were closely scrutinized, and if their Champion dog threw an off colored gene, they wuld have killed the pup and denied it's existence rather than to have the word get out.

I ssume that todays breeders would not kill the pup, but they would surely keep it a secret if they felt that it meant they had to neuter their champion dog.

Not all of them would do the responible thing and have the dog neutered. they would just be sure not to ever mate those two dogs again.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Just because someone posts something on the internet, does not make it gospel. No one knows for sure exdfactly which dogs were used to make up the dogs that were used to creat the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Most of thoe early founders were unregistered mixed breeds.

There is no way possible that anyone could know for certain tht there was not a piebald gene in the mix.

Back in the early 1860's the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were both shown in the same class as broken haired scottish terriers. it wasn't until 1864 that the Maltese were given a class of there own.

keeping that in mind, it is very possible, and more likely than not, that the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were bred together as Broken haired Scottish Terriers.

So I guess that pretty much invalidates everything the parti colour/Biewer breeders are claiming if all the info on the Internet cannot be trusted.
As the info on that page is from an actual genetisist I would think it gives it some validity.
Again, you don't understand how a purebred gets that status. The development and recognition of the YOrkshire terrier went through the same hoops as any other purebred to be recognized.
Many of the current purebreds were developed from mixed breeds the Yorkie was not the only one that came about through that path. BUt that was one heck of a long path they came through with meticulous records of true fanciers, once they sought recognition and for the result to breed true. These were not ever marketed as rare whatever.
Fact still remains, I don't know of any reputable show breeders that know there lines from 30+ years producing a parti colour. One of their dogs might have done so as you mention the Nikko line but again, bred to what?
Which again is why show breeders NOW are very selective of whom they will deal with because if they do breed or sell to someone that produces something not good, that show breeder will get the blame regardless of what is behind the non show breeder stock. Show breeders have kind of closed the barn doors after the horses got out but I don't believe this was such a problem until the huge dollars could be made off of small breed dogs including designer breeds and 'rare' colours and not just involving Yorkies, it is happening in many breeds.