Parti and Beiwer

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Deb,

You are correct, not all German breeders breed back to yorkies, you are also correct that breeding to a parti yorkie or a standard colored yorkie is diluting the biewer gene.. that is the whole idea.. to bring in some health to the genes of the Biewers as (in my opinion) they were to closely inbred without the proper steps taken to remove the unwanted "issues" from the breed.. the Parti's were also very inbred, but it was done by people that knew what they were doing and they removed the dogs from the breeding populations that had genetic problems and did not just keep breeding them just to get the color. Where Mr. Biewer focused on setting a specific LOOK, I believe the Parti's concentrated more on health first.. now they are working on the outer appearance.

In the world of dogs.. 26 years is nothing.. does the AKC accept a dog as a new breed just because it is bred "true" for that amount of time??? Would they consider the Biewer a Breed of it's own?? I have yet to hear anyone show me HOW just time alone and just breeding color back to color and setting type can make a new breed. I understand how you would want that to be the case, but I just don't see that it is. If you bred Parti's just with Parti's long enough.. are you saying THEY would also be a seperate breed???

Diana

You would have to check with the registry to see what they require for starting a new breed. Each registry probably has it's own set of criteria. Evidently the German registries are not as strict, and that, perhaps, is why the AKC does not recognize them.

Otherwise one could start a new breed and get it registered in Germany and then just transfer it to the AKC.

I guess you can start a new breed anyway you want to, but getting a registery to accept it is a different story.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

yes, they all trace back to the same pair of dogs that were owned by the Biewer family.

And you are right. there is no difference genetically. Only when it comes to the AKC.

The Nikkos line of Partis and the Biewers do have a common ancestor from Streamglen Kennels. But the partis do not trace back to the Biewer Family.
Mr biewer bought 2 dogs from Streamglen, Streamglen Richard and Streamglen Flora. It took him 4 generations of breeding before his tri color showed up.
Same with the Nikkos Partis, both traced back to Streamglen Shaun.
From my understanding Mr biewer did not make them a separate breed , he registered them as a variation of the yorkshire terrier. The separate breed stuff came about after they reached the states.

[Shellygirlky]

I like this thread. It's a good healthy debate and I'm learning so much.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Deb,

You are correct, not all German breeders breed back to yorkies, you are also correct that breeding to a parti yorkie or a standard colored yorkie is diluting the biewer gene.. that is the whole idea.. to bring in some health to the genes of the Biewers as (in my opinion) they were to closely inbred without the proper steps taken to remove the unwanted "issues" from the breed.. the Parti's were also very inbred, but it was done by people that knew what they were doing and they removed the dogs from the breeding populations that had genetic problems and did not just keep breeding them just to get the color. Where Mr. Biewer focused on setting a specific LOOK, I believe the Parti's concentrated more on health first.. now they are working on the outer appearance.

In the world of dogs.. 26 years is nothing.. does the AKC accept a dog as a new breed just because it is bred "true" for that amount of time??? Would they consider the Biewer a Breed of it's own?? I have yet to hear anyone show me HOW just time alone and just breeding color back to color and setting type can make a new breed. I understand how you would want that to be the case, but I just don't see that it is. If you bred Parti's just with Parti's long enough.. are you saying THEY would also be a seperate breed???

Diana

Well so say experts with far more knowledge and education regarding genetics than I. You wanna read articles by Carmen Battalia or Jerold Bell to name two.

I do know that inbreeding sets type. Simply because it causes some genes to become homozygous...meaning the same...unlike heterozygous genes which carry differences. So dogs with homozygous genes reproduce themselves because the genes have been "fixed".

There are loads of articles on line regarding inbreeding, genes...some are much easier to understand that others...some I've read several times to understand. lol.

The coefficient of inbreeding in a group of 1000 biewers hovers at around
18%. This is the same COE for standard poodles...some are as high as 25%.

I have seen great strides in structure of the biewers being produced today than several years ago.

I have always been puzzled by the premise of breeding back to a yorkie for health reasons. A)the genetic issues are exactly the same in the two breeds and B)if there are health issues...what benefit do you get when you've bred back to the same dog who health was in question.

As far as the gene pool being considered too small. I own two dogs who do not have any related ancestors until their 5th gen (1 dog)....so there are unrelated dogs out there...

Thanks for saying I'm correct lots of times.... lol.

[bchgirl]

I actually believe biewers will be accepted into the AKC FSS program some day.

But I also believe it will be much like the cotons. Multiple breed clubs listed w/ none appointed "parent" and then there will still be others who still classify their dogs as a "rare" breed.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

OOOh, no problem at all Deb.. you're "right" a whole whole bunch!

I understand your questions about "how is it benifiting the health by breeding back to the same breed that obviously has the same health issues'.. my answer to how I believe it is advantages is that 1) I know the health of the traditional yorkie I have been breeding back to! This is the most important ingredient.. if it was just any old yorkie off the street, breeding back to it would not nearly as appealing. I know the history, I know what he produces, I know what went into him, his parents, his character, the breeder..everything I can know.. I do not have those advantages with the dogs I brought from Germany.. I know that for example.. if his line would have had any issue in the past, they would have been dealt with by either selectivly breeding who goes in and who doesn't or by removing a problem dog from the program. I am not certain how these things are handled with the dogs imported from Germany.. the foundation of what we use in our programs.. 2) I am not looking at breeding back to a yorkie to magically cure all issues.. what I am looking at it doing is, for my lines, adding in one new line, a healthy, vibrant line.. into my Biewer lines.. opening them up just a bit by expanding what there is to work with.

I am certainly not saying we should not ever breed Biewer to Biewer... what I am saying, is for ME... I am going to add one generation of a new line into all of my Biewer lines.. keep back the best, and then start breeding those dogs Biewer to Biewer. Whatever it takes... If I have to do it again, and breed in another generation.. I guess I'd have to decide that when the time comes.

I have spayed/neutered all but one of the dogs I have imported from Germany.. I will keep starting over until I am ASSURED as best as I can be, that what I am breeding is healthy and the kind of dog I want to be proud to say represents the Biewer. I for one am just not at the point where I can look at a pedigree and be content with what I see on there.. maybe some can. I only wish I was younger because this is going to be a very long process, in my opinion.. and those that believe they are already there are only fooling themselves. (again, my opinion only). I really wish it was the case, it would be far easier on us all.

Diana

[bchgirl]

Thanks for the reply. I understand the concept of what you're trying to achieve...but your foundation dogs still remain the very dogs whose background you questioned. That is what I don't understand. Those genes didn't suddenly go away. I'm not arguing...I'm just trying to understand.

If the breed were so plagued with health concerns...it wouldn't be here 25 years later.

Honestly I don't know that either of us will live long enough to say....eureka, Diana...you were right or vise versa. In these threads, I generally provide "factual" information...I don't usually volunteer my "opinion"...but I am always interested in learning something.

PS mark your calendar for FL in Feb. We'll have a drink....or two.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Now Deb.. I can't wait until February for that drink!! Aren't you going to Arizonia in October.. I MAYBE able to wait that long ..

Diana

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Now Deb.. I can't wait until February for that drink!! Aren't you going to Arizonia in October.. I MAYBE able to wait that long ..

Diana

No to October.

I'm always thristy though.

[JeanieK]

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3250568-post11.html

I read this in another thread. I found it interesting, evidently this person believes that the Biewer IS a breed, and does have a standard, and is not just a color.

So I'm quite confused.

[Shellygirlky]

This is all so fascinating to me. If I may, I'd like to ask one of those questions that probably every one except me knows the answer to. When you breed a yorkie to a biewer to improve your line, I am assuming that the offspring can still be registered as a biewer. Is this correct? What club are they registered with and does the yorkie have to be registered with that club also?

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

This is all so fascinating to me. If I may, I'd like to ask one of those questions that probably every one except me knows the answer to. When you breed a yorkie to a biewer to improve your line, I am assuming that the offspring can still be registered as a biewer. Is this correct? What club are they registered with and does the yorkie have to be registered with that club also?

Yes, as long as the Yorkie is registered either in Germany with one of the accepted clubs or in the states by AKC, the resulting puppies IF/WHEN THEY GET THE BIEWER COLORING.. are registered as Biewers.

Both parents would need to have the recessive gene however before the puppies would be born with white on them, so, it takes either finding a spectacular quality yorkie that already carries the Parti gene or breeding the pair, retaining one of the pups that carry the gene, waiting 1.5 years before you can breed that puppy.. then breeding it to a dog that has the gene.. you MAY get some pups out of that litter that have the correct coloring to be classified as a Biewer.

As I have stated before, it is a long process. The AKC yorkie does not have to be registered with the same registry. THe dogs are not registered with a club, but with a registry seperate from the club.. just like AKC is a registry and registers Yorkies, while the Club (YTCA) is something seperate.

Diana

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

No to October.

I'm always thristy though.

What a shame.. maybe you'll have to make the trip to Minnesota in November than??? We always have a great time! We can talk and talk and talk.. AND take care of that thirst of yours!!

Diana

[Shellygirlky]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Yes, as long as the Yorkie is registered either in Germany with one of the accepted clubs or in the states by AKC, the resulting puppies IF/WHEN THEY GET THE BIEWER COLORING.. are registered as Biewers.

Both parents would need to have the recessive gene however before the puppies would be born with white on them, so, it takes either finding a spectacular quality yorkie that already carries the Parti gene or breeding the pair, retaining one of the pups that carry the gene, waiting 1.5 years before you can breed that puppy.. then breeding it to a dog that has the gene.. you MAY get some pups out of that litter that have the correct coloring to be classified as a Biewer.

As I have stated before, it is a long process. The AKC yorkie does not have to be registered with the same registry. THe dogs are not registered with a club, but with a registry seperate from the club.. just like AKC is a registry and registers Yorkies, while the Club (YTCA) is something seperate.

Diana

Thank you. That cleared up a lot of things I have been wondering about. Now I have more time to be confused over other things. The more I learn the more I want to know.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by miljoy

Wow thank you, I knew they were new in this country and very expensive, I wonder if this is the newest breed of dog. They sure are Stunning.

Sharlamay yorkies in South Africa has AKC Parti yorkies.