Parti and Beiwer

[BonBon]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

Thank you. That cleared up a lot of things I have been wondering about. Now I have more time to be confused over other things. The more I learn the more I want to know.

I'm sorry - I had to laugh at this. It's EXACTLY how I feel. I love learning as much as I can, and I try to follow all the threads like this one, but it always seems to bring up new questions in my mind.

Thanks to everyone for another informative discussion.

Bonny

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

Thank you. That cleared up a lot of things I have been wondering about. Now I have more time to be confused over other things. The more I learn the more I want to know.

LOL.. Welcome to our world.. there are always more questions than answers.

Diana

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Well so say experts with far more knowledge and education regarding genetics than I. You wanna read articles by Carmen Battalia or Jerold Bell to name two.

I do know that inbreeding sets type. Simply because it causes some genes to become homozygous...meaning the same...unlike heterozygous genes which carry differences. So dogs with homozygous genes reproduce themselves because the genes have been "fixed".

There are loads of articles on line regarding inbreeding, genes...some are much easier to understand that others...some I've read several times to understand. lol.

The coefficient of inbreeding in a group of 1000 biewers hovers at around
18%. This is the same COE for standard poodles...some are as high as 25%.

I have seen great strides in structure of the biewers being produced today than several years ago.

I have always been puzzled by the premise of breeding back to a yorkie for health reasons. A)the genetic issues are exactly the same in the two breeds and B)if there are health issues...what benefit do you get when you've bred back to the same dog who health was in question.

As far as the gene pool being considered too small. I own two dogs who do not have any related ancestors until their 5th gen (1 dog)....so there are unrelated dogs out there...

Thanks for saying I'm correct lots of times.... lol.

The level of inbreeding is usually measured using a formula called Wright’s Coefficient of Inbreeding.

It calculates the probability that genes may have been inherited from both sides of an individual’s pedigree. It is far
too complex to do by hand over more than two or three generations, but some of the better pedigree software will
calculate coefficient of inbreeding (COI) for you. The usual 3-5 generation pedigree won't give sufficient information
for a useful calculation. The best indicator for calculating inbreeding COI is 10 generations. (Going back 10
generations represents 1024 ancestors)

Modern breeders should know the COI of each of their dogs and determine what the COI will be on planned litters.

Standard Poodles average around 18%. (This is roughly equivalent to all of them being half-brothers and sisters.
Some of the tops stud dogs in the Show World average over 25% or more!) This is unacceptable!!!

Any mammal whose COI is over 6 % is inbred.

[Breezeaway]

Who do you consider the foundation dogs? Who did the Coi Calculations for you on 1000 Biewers?

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I actually believe biewers will be accepted into the AKC FSS program some day.

But I also believe it will be much like the cotons. Multiple breed clubs listed w/ none appointed "parent" and then there will still be others who still classify their dogs as a "rare" breed.

Do the multiple coton breed clubs all have the same standard? I'm curious, bc if not, I wonder which club's standard they judge by? And, if the Cotons have several breed club represented in AKC, why could Yorkies not also be represented by more than one breed club?

Also, curious as to how AKC could allow Biewers to show? If they are considered Yorkshire terriers, as parti color yorkies are, I don't see how AKC can accept the Biewers as a different breed, even if an approved German registry accepts them.

I think the Biewer and Parti Yorkies are a unique situation for AKC, and personally don't see how AKC, the Biewer and Parti breeders can come to an agreement that will make everyone happy.....it's a shame.

[KJLive]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

No 1 Mr Biewer never bred any other breed his dogs came from pure traditional colored yorkies,
The one thing you have to remember is you may dilute the Biewer gene by breeding to a yorkshire Terrier but if you don't you are asking for trouble, There are not nearly enough biewers to close the books..............you will see in time. You cannot close books so quicky on a breed as the Biewer Terrier has done.
It takes years and years and years to have enough dogs to close books.

Well I don't, in any stretch of the imagination, know "genes" and the breeding of the Biewers to the depth that you two do. However, I did sit in on a very good seminar this past February where Dr. Jerold Bell (Vet and genetics specialist) did an independent study of the Biewer breed. I do remember that he clearly stated that there was no need or reason any longer to breed the Biewer back to the Yorkshire Terrier. That he felt the breed was brought far enough forward that is wasn't necesarry to do so for breeding out health issues.

Now I realize Dr. Bell isn't "God" but he sure as sugar has a lot of knowledge and genetic research criteria behind his name. And I respect his findings.

Some of you on this thread were at that very same seminar. For that reason if I have posted anything incorrectly, please feel free to say so. The last thing I want to do is put out incorrect information.

For those who are interested, the seminar was recorded and tapes are for sale. You can PM me for the link if you'd like to purchase one.

And you both better save a seat at the "adult beverage" table for me!

[Breezeaway]

Is the independent study of the Biewers on the tape? Who gave Dr Bell all the info for the study of the Biewers?
What info exactly was given to him?

[KJLive]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Is the independent study of the Biewers on the tape? Who gave Dr Bell all the info for the study of the Biewers?
What info exactly was given to him?

Yes, it was a genetics seminar on the breed. Many things were discussed (health, breeding, Dr. Sharon Centers current research on LS, etc.) The seminar was more directed towards the breeder than the pet owner like myself. Therefore, I'm sure many who attended took far better notes than I did. I truly believe I was probably the only "pet owner" in a room full of breeders.

Back to your question...I seem to recall he did a lot of his own research to collect his data needed, but I WILL find out for you as this is a valid question.

On behalf of not having this answer on the tip of my tongue, I have to say that I do know Dr. Bell is very highly respected within the genetics community, as a Veterinarian, and as a breeder himself. I don't believe he would risk his reputation for the sake of 4,500 dogs. But that's JMH(humble)O.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

The level of inbreeding is usually measured using a formula called Wright’s Coefficient of Inbreeding.

It calculates the probability that genes may have been inherited from both sides of an individual’s pedigree. It is far
too complex to do by hand over more than two or three generations, but some of the better pedigree software will
calculate coefficient of inbreeding (COI) for you. The usual 3-5 generation pedigree won't give sufficient information
for a useful calculation. The best indicator for calculating inbreeding COI is 10 generations. (Going back 10
generations represents 1024 ancestors)

Modern breeders should know the COI of each of their dogs and determine what the COI will be on planned litters.

Standard Poodles average around 18%. (This is roughly equivalent to all of them being half-brothers and sisters.
Some of the tops stud dogs in the Show World average over 25% or more!) This is unacceptable!!!

Any mammal whose COI is over 6 % is inbred.

That is very interesting. I think I will leave the inbreeding to the experts.

[KJLive]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Is the independent study of the Biewers on the tape? Who gave Dr Bell all the info for the study of the Biewers?
What info exactly was given to him?

I checked on this for you and here is what Dr. Bell was given. Dr. Bell was given every name of every dog listed on pedigrees within the BBIR Registry.

These names were given in a blind analysis (he was only given dogs names. He took that information and compiled it himself) of the pedigree database, and analysis of influential dogs and bitches. It was those results that he used in the seminar to discuss various things like genetic diversity of the breed and controlling genetic diseases with a breed.

If you google Jerold Bell and pedigree analysis you will see a ton of hits. His degree is from Cornell and he specializes in genetics.

Here's the link for the DVD if you are interested in buying it. http://biewerbca.com/id15.html


Even for the pet owner like myself, I found the seminar very interesting.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Who do you consider the foundation dogs? Who did the Coi Calculations for you on 1000 Biewers?

I assume this question is directed toward me? Mr. Biewer's foundation dogs would be Fru Fru and Darling Friedheck. And yes, I do know this pair were traditionally colored yorkshire terriers. He never bred his tri colored dogs back to standard colored yorkies.

I need to clarify something...there are 1000 dogs in the registry, but Dr. Bell was given the name of every dog listed on those pedigrees which are 10 generation.

Just a side note...but do you know that the Lowchen breed was brought back from extinction using only 2 dogs...

[KJLive]

[QUOTE=bchgirl;3252386]
I need to clarify something...there are 1000 dogs in the registry, but Dr. Bell was given the name of every dog listed on those pedigrees which are 10 generation.

Thanks for stating that more clearly for me. I appreciate you keeping my facts straight because I really don't want to give incorrect information.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I assume this question is directed toward me? Mr. Biewer's foundation dogs would be Fru Fru and Darling Friedheck. And yes, I do know this pair were traditionally colored yorkshire terriers. He never bred his tri colored dogs back to standard colored yorkies.

I need to clarify something...there are 1000 dogs in the registry, but Dr. Bell was given the name of every dog listed on those pedigrees which are 10 generation.

Just a side note...but do you know that the Lowchen breed was brought back from extinction using only 2 dogs...

Mr Biewer did breed his traditional colors to his tri colors, One for instance is he bred Darling/traditional to Grand pom pon which was a tri color female, which resulted in Schneerose.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Do the multiple coton breed clubs all have the same standard? I'm curious, bc if not, I wonder which club's standard they judge by? And, if the Cotons have several breed club represented in AKC, why could Yorkies not also be represented by more than one breed club?

Also, curious as to how AKC could allow Biewers to show? If they are considered Yorkshire terriers, as parti color yorkies are, I don't see how AKC can accept the Biewers as a different breed, even if an approved German registry accepts them.

I think the Biewer and Parti Yorkies are a unique situation for AKC, and personally don't see how AKC, the Biewer and Parti breeders can come to an agreement that will make everyone happy.....it's a shame.

There is one standard for the cotons. The coton is in AKC's FSS program...not an officially recognized breed. A parent club hasn't been appointed as the YTCA was appointed the parent club of yorkshire terriers.

Biewers are already being shown, granted not in AKC and it is as a breed of it's own.

There have been some AKC fun matches which allowed our dogs to enter also. No points are earned but it's good exposure for the breed.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Mr Biewer did breed his traditional colors to his tri colors, One for instance is he bred Darling/traditional to Grand pom pon which was a tri color female, which resulted in Schneerose.

You know I had to go look that up, don't ya? lol. No pics but I see the color noted on the peds. Yep, you're right, although Mrs. Biewer says this was not done. I stand corrected.