Parti and Beiwer

[Dixies Mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I would be worried about the brown ticking, the ticking comes from a different gene. Ticking is not normal when the hair is a different color. In the partis and the biewers they will have black spots on the skin but hair is always white.

That is why I was wondering if there was a perfered lab doing testing. At this point I would like to know her genetic make up.

The white on her tail has black pigment.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Dixies Mom

That is why I was wondering if there was a perfered lab doing testing. At this point I would like to know her genetic make up.

The white on her tail has black pigment.

In biewers you see black ticking. It occurs in the white on their backs...as the dog matures...the white sometimes becomes streaked. I have never seen a biewer with brown ticking.

As far as her tail...what I've noticed. If the tail is all white...it stays completely white. If it's half white/half black...it does usually streak.

The tip of Jubilee's tail is white...beneath that it is streaked.

Hth

[Shellygirlky]

Has any one done research on the lineage of both the parti yorkie and the Beiwer? For example only......If you trace the Nikko line and the Biewer line further back would they have relatives in common? Thanks to who ever answered the DNA question. I have been wondering if a Biewer were tested would it say all Yorkshire Terrier and now I know. Now this is just my opinion, technically a Biewer is registered as a sperate breed but in reality it is no different than let's say a CKC Yorkie. If you breed CKC to AKC the offspring can't be registered as AKC but that doesn't make it any less a Yorkie. Basically "A rose by any other name yada, yada, yada".

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

They cannot register them as Yorkshire terriers because they dont have the correct papers from VDH when they so called split and tried to make them a separate breed. If you had researched as you have said to have done you would know why.

I DO know why, but you keep evading the facts.

They don't have the proper papers because when they split, they were no longer registered under yorkshire terriers, they were registered as Biewer Yorkshire Terrier a la Pom Pom. They allowed them to create a separate breed. Unlike the AKC where you cannot creat a separte brewed on color alone.

The AKC recognizes the other yorkies that come over from Europe, just not the Biewers.

So as I said, genetically they are the same dog, but they are treated differently, when it comes to registering, because they split from the yorkshire terriers, and became a separate breed.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

Has any one done research on the lineage of both the parti yorkie and the Beiwer? For example only......If you trace the Nikko line and the Biewer line further back would they have relatives in common? Thanks to who ever answered the DNA question. I have been wondering if a Biewer were tested would it say all Yorkshire Terrier and now I know. Now this is just my opinion, technically a Biewer is registered as a sperate breed but in reality it is no different than let's say a CKC Yorkie. If you breed CKC to AKC the offspring can't be registered as AKC but that doesn't make it any less a Yorkie. Basically "A rose by any other name yada, yada, yada".

yes, they all trace back to the same pair of dogs that were owned by the Biewer family.

And you are right. there is no difference genetically. Only when it comes to the AKC.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

Has any one done research on the lineage of both the parti yorkie and the Beiwer? For example only......If you trace the Nikko line and the Biewer line further back would they have relatives in common? Thanks to who ever answered the DNA question. I have been wondering if a Biewer were tested would it say all Yorkshire Terrier and now I know. Now this is just my opinion, technically a Biewer is registered as a sperate breed but in reality it is no different than let's say a CKC Yorkie. If you breed CKC to AKC the offspring can't be registered as AKC but that doesn't make it any less a Yorkie. Basically "A rose by any other name yada, yada, yada".

Biewer and parti pedigrees have a common ancestor from Streamglen Kennel.

And hmmm, no it is not a CKC yorkie.

It is a GERMAN breed and the german registries are not recognized by AKC. THAT is the reason the breed is not recognized.

[bchgirl]

I think what everyone seems to over look is the GENETICS of the dog. There are two ways a "new" breed is created. 1. A combination of 3 breeds...which takes years and years to set phenotype and genotype or 2. Lots and lots of inbreeding. Phenotype is the physical appearance you can see. Genotype is the genetics which may or may not be present in appearance.

Mr Biewer set the phenotype of the dogs. The breed is quite capable of resembling one phenotype and the results genetically similar to their parents.


This process takes literally years....so no it wasn't poof...it's a new breed. The dogs have been around for 26 years. You set the types, keep stud books, dna parents and accomplish a gene pool which produces litters consistent with type and genetics.

Genetics isn't opinion. It's fact and the information readily assessable.

They all were not bred back to yorkshire terriers. My pedigrees do not have any black/tan dogs in them for 7 generations. That 7th generation is one of the foundation dogs.

Breeding to a parti yorkshire terrier...or a standard colored yorkie is doing nothing but diluting the biewer gene. JMHO.

[Shellygirlky]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Biewer and parti pedigrees have a common ancestor from Streamglen Kennel.

And hmmm, no it is not a CKC yorkie.

It is a GERMAN breed and the german registries are not recognized by AKC. THAT is the reason the breed is not recognized.

Sorry if I worded that wrong. I wasn't implying that a Biewer was CKC, just using it as an example. If you have puppies from an AKC and CKC pairing they can't be registered AKC even though they are still 100% yorkie or AKC to Biewer can't be registered AKC though they are also 100% yorkie.

[Toby'sMama]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I DO know why, but you keep evading the facts.

They don't have the proper papers because when they split, they were no longer registered under yorkshire terriers, they were registered as Biewer Yorkshire Terrier a la Pom Pom. They allowed them to create a separate breed. Unlike the AKC where you cannot creat a separte brewed on color alone.

The AKC recognizes the other yorkies that come over from Europe, just not the Biewers.

So as I said, genetically they are the same dog, but they are treated differently, when it comes to registering, because they split from the yorkshire terriers, and became a separate breed.

Geez... Wrong... they are registered as "Biewer Yorkshire Terrier"... the reason why AKC doesn't recognize them is because they are not recognized by a German registry that is recognized by the AKC. Not because they are a separate breed. Maybe you should just stick with the Parti's. Much simpler to understand.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Shellygirlky

Has any one done research on the lineage of both the parti yorkie and the Beiwer? For example only......If you trace the Nikko line and the Biewer line further back would they have relatives in common? Thanks to who ever answered the DNA question. I have been wondering if a Biewer were tested would it say all Yorkshire Terrier and now I know. Now this is just my opinion, technically a Biewer is registered as a sperate breed but in reality it is no different than let's say a CKC Yorkie. If you breed CKC to AKC the offspring can't be registered as AKC but that doesn't make it any less a Yorkie. Basically "A rose by any other name yada, yada, yada".

Yes the true Biewer is a Yorkshire terrier.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I think what everyone seems to over look is the GENETICS of the dog. There are two ways a "new" breed is created. 1. A combination of 3 breeds...which takes years and years to set phenotype and genotype or 2. Lots and lots of inbreeding. Phenotype is the physical appearance you can see. Genotype is the genetics which may or may not be present in appearance.

Mr Biewer set the phenotype of the dogs. The breed is quite capable of resembling one phenotype and the results genetically similar to their parents.


This process takes literally years....so no it wasn't poof...it's a new breed. The dogs have been around for 26 years. You set the types, keep stud books, dna parents and accomplish a gene pool which produces litters consistent with type and genetics.

Genetics isn't opinion. It's fact and the information readily assessable.

They all were not bred back to yorkshire terriers. My pedigrees do not have any black/tan dogs in them for 7 generations. That 7th generation is one of the foundation dogs.

Breeding to a parti yorkshire terrier...or a standard colored yorkie is doing nothing but diluting the biewer gene. JMHO.

No 1 Mr Biewer never bred any other breed his dogs came from pure traditional colored yorkies,
The one thing you have to remember is you may dilute the Biewer gene by breeding to a yorkshire Terrier but if you don't you are asking for trouble, There are not nearly enough biewers to close the books..............you will see in time. You cannot close books so quicky on a breed as the Biewer Terrier has done.
It takes years and years and years to have enough dogs to close books.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Toby'sMama

Geez... Wrong... they are registered as "Biewer Yorkshire Terrier"... the reason why AKC doesn't recognize them is because they are not recognized by a German registry that is recognized by the AKC. Not because they are a separate breed. Maybe you should just stick with the Parti's. Much simpler to understand.

Yes Biewer yorkshire terrier, NOT yorkshire Terrier. Not much to understand, same dog, different registries.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I think what everyone seems to over look is the GENETICS of the dog. There are two ways a "new" breed is created. 1. A combination of 3 breeds...which takes years and years to set phenotype and genotype or 2. Lots and lots of inbreeding. Phenotype is the physical appearance you can see. Genotype is the genetics which may or may not be present in appearance.

Mr Biewer set the phenotype of the dogs. The breed is quite capable of resembling one phenotype and the results genetically similar to their parents.


This process takes literally years....so no it wasn't poof...it's a new breed. The dogs have been around for 26 years. You set the types, keep stud books, dna parents and accomplish a gene pool which produces litters consistent with type and genetics.

Genetics isn't opinion. It's fact and the information readily assessable.

They all were not bred back to yorkshire terriers. My pedigrees do not have any black/tan dogs in them for 7 generations. That 7th generation is one of the foundation dogs.

Breeding to a parti yorkshire terrier...or a standard colored yorkie is doing nothing but diluting the biewer gene. JMHO.

Deb,

You are correct, not all German breeders breed back to yorkies, you are also correct that breeding to a parti yorkie or a standard colored yorkie is diluting the biewer gene.. that is the whole idea.. to bring in some health to the genes of the Biewers as (in my opinion) they were to closely inbred without the proper steps taken to remove the unwanted "issues" from the breed.. the Parti's were also very inbred, but it was done by people that knew what they were doing and they removed the dogs from the breeding populations that had genetic problems and did not just keep breeding them just to get the color. Where Mr. Biewer focused on setting a specific LOOK, I believe the Parti's concentrated more on health first.. now they are working on the outer appearance.

In the world of dogs.. 26 years is nothing.. does the AKC accept a dog as a new breed just because it is bred "true" for that amount of time??? Would they consider the Biewer a Breed of it's own?? I have yet to hear anyone show me HOW just time alone and just breeding color back to color and setting type can make a new breed. I understand how you would want that to be the case, but I just don't see that it is. If you bred Parti's just with Parti's long enough.. are you saying THEY would also be a seperate breed???

Diana

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Deb,

You are correct, not all German breeders breed back to yorkies, you are also correct that breeding to a parti yorkie or a standard colored yorkie is diluting the biewer gene.. that is the whole idea.. to bring in some health to the genes of the Biewers as (in my opinion) they were to closely inbred without the proper steps taken to remove the unwanted "issues" from the breed.. the Parti's were also very inbred, but it was done by people that knew what they were doing and they removed the dogs from the breeding populations that had genetic problems and did not just keep breeding them just to get the color. Where Mr. Biewer focused on setting a specific LOOK, I believe the Parti's concentrated more on health first.. now they are working on the outer appearance.

In the world of dogs.. 26 years is nothing.. does the AKC accept a dog as a new breed just because it is bred "true" for that amount of time??? Would they consider the Biewer a Breed of it's own?? I have yet to hear anyone show me HOW just time alone and just breeding color back to color and setting type can make a new breed. I understand how you would want that to be the case, but I just don't see that it is. If you bred Parti's just with Parti's long enough.. are you saying THEY would also be a seperate breed???

Diana

For proof on how this can happen...look no further then the Basenji. The Basenji Club of America has had to petition the AKC to re-open the stud book TWICE...so they could breed back to the African dogs not registered..just to save the breed from extinction from the massive inbreeding done in England and the States.

This will soon be a big problem for the Biewer as well. But IMO...it already is.

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Yes Biewer yorkshire terrier, NOT yorkshire Terrier. Not much to understand, same dog, different registries.

Jeanie..I understand what you are saying from an AKC yorkie breeder's perspective. However, since the IBC stud book is still open...it is not considered "mixing" when we breed our AKC yorkies with our Biewers to produce Biewer pups. No...these same pups cannot be registered with the AKC. But not because they are not a yorkie. Mr. Biewer could have had his "parti yorkie" registered with the VDH (Germany's equivilant to the AKC). But he was upset he couldn't show...just like we can't show with the AKC. So...he renamed his tri yorkie and went to another playing field to register and show his tri yorkie. That does not change the fact that they are still just a tri yorkie.

So..how is that considered mixing when they breed true when bred together...and the resulting pups can be registered in Germany and with a few clubs in the States?