Differences between Biewer and Parti Yorkies?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by puppylove11

Amen!!!!!!

You should concern yourself with the bad breeders in the ytca. It is a joke when color is more important to the health issues of a breed! Especially since "most" of the yorkshire terriers in the ring have enhanced coloring of some kind, lol. I just might have to share the secret color recipe for the parti carriers who will be showing.

I see you have been done wrong by some members and I'm truly sorry for your bad experience. Please don't judge all the members for a few bad apples.
Aren't you defeating your purpose on the color issue? LOL...again I'm so sorry you have had a bad experience I so hope that you can find peace.
As I've said before, health to me is of the utmost importance then comes the whole package...can't explain it any plainer than that

[Breezeaway]

The Partis' were from one of the top show breeders in England and one of the top show breeders in the U.S., those dogs were out of Champion dogs, champion bred and in my opinion they have every much of a right to show in AKC, if are show quality and not be ostracized because of white hair.
The pedigrees are the proof.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

The Partis' were from one of the top show breeders in England and one of the top show breeders in the U.S., those dogs were out of Champion dogs, champion bred and in my opinion they have every much of a right to show in AKC, if are show quality and not be ostracized because of white hair.
The pedigrees are the proof.

And so are the black and tan yorkies but it doesn't fit the breed standard for the show ring doesn't make them any less to love and be placed in a pet home just the color isn't for the show ring...it's the dark steel blue and tan...rules are in place for a reason and whether you like the reason or not, rules are rules, standard's are standards. I love a black and tan yorkie they have the most awesome structure for the most part but it's not what is called for the show ring doesn't make them any less a yorkie to love.

[Pinehaven]

Is there an automatic DQ rule for dogs who have a slight overbite, or a coat that isn't the ideal silk? How about the black and gold yorkies who have won champion titles, these dogs will never be steel blue and tan because they do not carry the gene that will dilute their coats to the standards desired blue color ... will these dogs be stripped of their titles? Why the automatic DQ for parti, chocolate and golden?

In a TNT Article by Carl Yochum, president of the YTCA, he states "The parti colored, chocolate and tan solid colored yorkies are nothing but designer dogs." News - Bulletin Board

The YTCA's website also calls Parti yorkies "Designer dogs" Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards)

But early history clearly writes, that off color has shown up in the breed since the beginning of the breed.

The YTCA's website article states:

A brief history of the development of the Yorkshire Terrier will show that the dog was developed in the 1800’s. In England, the Waterside Terrier was often crossed with the old English terrier, a silky coated black and tan or blue and tan terrier weighing around five pounds. When crafters from Scotland came into England, they brought several “Scotch“terriers, among them the Paisley and the Clydesdale. The Paisley was a small silky coated dog in various shades of blue. The Clydesdale was a blue and tan dog with the exact color pattern as the Yorkie of today. All of these original breeds were grizzle, tan, blue, blue and tan, or black and tan. No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed. The first Yorkshire Terriers were entered at shows as Broken Haired Scotch and Yorkshire Terriers. In the early days, dog classes were often divided by size, under five pounds and over five pounds; however, there was never a class for colors other than the blue and tan we see today.

The article states that No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed ... BUT

The Otter hound was used in the makeup of the Waterside terrier - Waterside terriers were used in the make up of the Yorkie according to the YTCA's Yorkie history page. Color's of the Otter hounds were not only grizzle and blue and tan but also piebald, chocolate and tan colored. Otterhound Colors

The YTCA article goes on to state that scotch terriers or broken haired scotch terriers were used in the make up of the yorkie but there are numerous early writings of blue, tan or white colored scotch terriers, see a few links here:

Kennel Club calendar & stud book - Google Books

British rural sports: comprising ... - Google Books

1861: Shows At Leeds, Birmingham, And Manchester. Continued

Books also mention white Yorkshire Terriers, here's one link:

A manual of toy dogs: how to breed ... - Google Books

Some of the first prize winning yorkshire terriers were blue and tan born Yorkies.
The American book of the dog: The ... - Google Books

Numerous early writings also state that the maltese were used in the make up of the yorkshire terrier. Maltese were used to enhance the texture and length of the yorkies coat ... Maltese display the maximum expression of the piebald gene ... they're just one big white spot!

In addition to the above writings, parti and other off colors have appeared in well known old time breeders and in well known show breeders lines, in addition to Nikkos, parti also has been seen in the Wildweir and Parquin kennel.

So I'm not sure how a group of people can say that something never happened or that these off colors are a result of being "designer (made) dogs" when early writings state that these off colors have been seen since the beginning? How can they say that No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed when history clearly shows that dogs who carried white and other off colors, were used in the make up of this breed?

People can pick and choose to believe what they want to believe; they can see what they want to see (or see what others only want them to see) but for me, I see recessive genes at work, and these genes have made their appearances in the breed since it's beginning. So now I ask, what makes a yorkie a yorkie ... is it it's blue and tan coat color or is it the dogs unbroken, documented bloodline and heritage?

Written standards are a wonderful guide for trying to achieve that "perfect" goal but standards should not be taken so literally that it discriminates and casts aside healthy dogs, solely because of their nonstandard coat color - these being the same non standard colors that have been documented in many early books about the breed.

Just something for all to think about ....

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Is there an automatic DQ rule for dogs who have a slight overbite, or a coat that isn't the ideal silk? How about the black and gold yorkies who have won champion titles, these dogs will never be steel blue and tan because they do not carry the gene that will dilute their coats to the standards desired blue color ... will these dogs be stripped of their titles? Why the automatic DQ for parti, chocolate and golden?

In a TNT Article by Carl Yochum, president of the YTCA, he states "The parti colored, chocolate and tan solid colored yorkies are nothing but designer dogs." News - Bulletin Board

The YTCA's website also calls Parti yorkies "Designer dogs" Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards)

But early history clearly writes, that off color has shown up in the breed since the beginning of the breed.

The YTCA's website article states:

A brief history of the development of the Yorkshire Terrier will show that the dog was developed in the 1800’s. In England, the Waterside Terrier was often crossed with the old English terrier, a silky coated black and tan or blue and tan terrier weighing around five pounds. When crafters from Scotland came into England, they brought several “Scotch“terriers, among them the Paisley and the Clydesdale. The Paisley was a small silky coated dog in various shades of blue. The Clydesdale was a blue and tan dog with the exact color pattern as the Yorkie of today. All of these original breeds were grizzle, tan, blue, blue and tan, or black and tan. No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed. The first Yorkshire Terriers were entered at shows as Broken Haired Scotch and Yorkshire Terriers. In the early days, dog classes were often divided by size, under five pounds and over five pounds; however, there was never a class for colors other than the blue and tan we see today.

The article states that No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed ... BUT

The Otter hound was used in the makeup of the Waterside terrier - Waterside terriers were used in the make up of the Yorkie according to the YTCA's Yorkie history page. Color's of the Otter hounds were not only grizzle and blue and tan but also piebald, chocolate and tan colored. Otterhound Colors

The YTCA article goes on to state that scotch terriers or broken haired scotch terriers were used in the make up of the yorkie but there are numerous early writings of blue, tan or white colored scotch terriers, see a few links here:

Kennel Club calendar & stud book - Google Books

British rural sports: comprising ... - Google Books

1861: Shows At Leeds, Birmingham, And Manchester. Continued

Books also mention white Yorkshire Terriers, here's one link:

A manual of toy dogs: how to breed ... - Google Books

Some of the first prize winning yorkshire terriers were blue and tan born Yorkies.
The American book of the dog: The ... - Google Books

Numerous early writings also state that the maltese were used in the make up of the yorkshire terrier. Maltese were used to enhance the texture and length of the yorkies coat ... Maltese display the maximum expression of the piebald gene ... they're just one big white spot!

In addition to the above writings, parti and other off colors have appeared in well known old time breeders and in well known show breeders lines, in addition to Nikkos, parti also has been seen in the Wildweir and Parquin kennel.

So I'm not sure how a group of people can say that something never happened or that these off colors are a result of being "designer (made) dogs" when early writings state that these off colors have been seen since the beginning? How can they say that No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed when history clearly shows that dogs who carried white and other off colors, were used in the make up of this breed?

People can pick and choose to believe what they want to believe; they can see what they want to see (or see what others only want them to see) but for me, I see recessive genes at work, and these genes have made their appearances in the breed since it's beginning. So now I ask, what makes a yorkie a yorkie ... is it it's blue and tan coat color or is it the dogs unbroken, documented bloodline and heritage?

Written standards are a wonderful guide for trying to achieve that "perfect" goal but standards should not be taken so literally that it discriminates and casts aside healthy dogs, solely because of their nonstandard coat color - these being the same non standard colors that have been documented in many early books about the breed.

Just something for all to think about ....

I will still show what the standard calls for as long as it's healthy. If I produce a healthy parti it will be placed in a pet home and again parents spayed and neutered. Of course it's a recessive gene if it's being produced, genetics is genetics.
Call me hard headed LOL but as long as the rule is in place it's to be followed. I try and not break any rules as that is what I was taught call me weird but I see things the way it's to be followed. Until the standard changes I will abide by it.

[Brooklynn]

I personally don't show a dog with a bad bite because it's not what the standard calls for, I don't show a black yorkie as it's not what the standard calls for, I don't show a light silver dog as it's not what the standard calls for...in fact I have a yorkie that is my first champion that was a nice dark steel blue when he finished but turned very light and is now neutered and never has been used for breeding because he isn't what the standard calls for and not exactly what I want in my breeding program but is healthy and from nice and well known lines. He's now a happy pet in my home being loved. I've started over a couple of times to insure I'm doing the right thing health wise and what the standard calls for.

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I can't speak for the YTCA as a whole but I can speak from my standpoint...I'm not afraid of the Parti's in the least. As long as it's a DQ and a color fault I will uphold the standard and defend it. All dogs are sweet, adorable and deserves a wonderful loving home. But when you deviate from a standard that is set for a particular breed it is one's responsiblity to hold it true and do their best to breed to the best representation of that particular breed whether it be yorkies or another breed.
When you knowingly take a parti carrier into the AKC show ring you are the one not holding true to the breed just for a title aka CH in front of it's name, just like someone taking in a cripple, one with health issues it's wrong and shouldn't be done but you have to live with yourself not me. I know at least when I am in the show ring with my yorkies I've done everything I can to uphold my standards and the yorkie standard and with health of the utmost importance and live with myself and sleep at night knowing I'm doing right

Donna

This breed has changed drastically since it's large boned, rat chasing days. Many breeders obviously deviated from the standard quite a few times over the years...to get where the yorkie is today. It certainly looks a lot different then what the founding fathers and mothers of the breed had in mind years and years ago. I bet some of them would be devestated to see the yorkie of today. But the fact is...change is inevitable...a true fact of life.

The parti's day will come. For now..they are AKC registered and much to your dismay...their carrier's can and will be shown. Once we have parti's the quality of today's show yorkie...and pedigree's filled with red...maybe the PTB in the YTCA will come around. If not..we will continue to show our dogs elsewhere until they do. Once they are being consistantly bred to a conformation that would rival a show quality Yorkie...someone in the YTCA will come around...it only takes a member or two to get the ball rolling. That is my hope anyway.

[kpstoybox]

[QUOTE=Brooklynn;3134772]I will still show what the standard calls for as long as it's healthy. If I produce a healthy parti it will be placed in a pet home and again parents spayed and neutered. Of course it's a recessive gene if it's being produced, genetics is genetics.
Call me hard headed LOL but as long as the rule is in place it's to be followed. I try and not break any rules as that is what I was taught call me weird but I see things the way it's to be followed. Until the standard changes I will abide by it.[/QUOTE]

But how does one go about changing something without fighting for it?

If we cull all the parti's and the carriers from the breeding pool...how will that bring change? It won't!
Can't you see we have no choice but to fight for change? Even if we keep losing..we keep bettering our dogs and keeping pushing for change. One day it may happen. I just hope I live to see it!

[puppylove11]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I personally don't show a dog with a bad bite because it's not what the standard calls for, I don't show a black yorkie as it's not what the standard calls for, I don't show a light silver dog as it's not what the standard calls for...in fact I have a yorkie that is my first champion that was a nice dark steel blue when he finished but turned very light and is now neutered and never has been used for breeding because he isn't what the standard calls for and not exactly what I want in my breeding program but is healthy and from nice and well known lines. He's now a happy pet in my home being loved. I've started over a couple of times to insure I'm doing the right thing health wise and what the standard calls for.

You know as well as I know there are many yorkshire terriers from top lines with off bites being shown and championed. They are not being DQ from the ring! There are modified coats being shown and championed as well. They are also not being DQ from the ring. There are dogs being shown in the ring with bad patellas and becoming champions. Do you honestly not see a problem with this picture?

I would rather breed a parti colored yorkie who is healthy to a standard colored silk coated yorkie from top lines with health issues!

[Brooklynn]

[quote=kpstoybox;3134824]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I will still show what the standard calls for as long as it's healthy. If I produce a healthy parti it will be placed in a pet home and again parents spayed and neutered. Of course it's a recessive gene if it's being produced, genetics is genetics.
Call me hard headed LOL but as long as the rule is in place it's to be followed. I try and not break any rules as that is what I was taught call me weird but I see things the way it's to be followed. Until the standard changes I will abide by it.[/QUOTE]

But how does one go about changing something without fighting for it?

If we cull all the parti's and the carriers from the breeding pool...how will that bring change? It won't!
Can't you see we have no choice but to fight for change? Even if we keep losing..we keep bettering our dogs and keeping pushing for change. One day it may happen. I just hope I live to see it!

I wish you wouldn't use the word "cull" maybe replace with take out because the word "cull" to me means kill and that is horrid in my eyes. The parti in the US hasn't been in the ring as long as I remember and used so I really don't see it changing in our life time. And to be honest, and being a God fearig person I believe no one will see it happen and sorry to bring religion in it but again my beliefs. I'm sorry but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. All I can say is good luck and I will continue to stand up for the current standard as I'm sure you'll continue to fight your fight.

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by puppylove11

You know as well as I know there are many yorkshire terriers from top lines with off bites being shown and championed. They are not being DQ from the ring! There are modified coats being shown and championed as well. They are also not being DQ from the ring. There are dogs being shown in the ring with bad patellas and becoming champions. Do you honestly not see a problem with this picture?

I would rather breed a parti colored yorkie who is healthy to a standard colored silk coated yorkie from top lines with health issues!

Of course I see it and again, I can't say how many times I've said I don't agree with it and fight against it as well....and the difference is there is not a DQ in place for those faults. There happens to be a DQ in place for the Parti AND the standard doesn't call for those colors. If there was a DQ in place for a bad bite there would be more DQ's in the ring I'm almost sure.
If you go and read a lot of my posts I have said there is a problem with those issues being brought in the ring and I am against that with passion as well. I get so frustrated myself when those types of dogs beat my dogs that doesn't have that problem!!! You're beating a dead horse there with me because I see it and complain about it too....
And Parti's don't have those types of issues???? And what makes you think if Parti's that were allowed to show wouldn't be brought in the ring with those problems as well? You can't say that wouldn't happen either. AGAIN, there is a bad apple in all areas of breeding whether it be in the standard yorkie or the Parti...

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I will still show what the standard calls for as long as it's healthy. If I produce a healthy parti it will be placed in a pet home and again parents spayed and neutered. Of course it's a recessive gene if it's being produced, genetics is genetics.
Call me hard headed LOL but as long as the rule is in place it's to be followed. I try and not break any rules as that is what I was taught call me weird but I see things the way it's to be followed. Until the standard changes I will abide by it.

I understand and appreciate your dedication to following the standards.

It's interesting that we always hear "if I produce a parti it will be placed in a pet home and it's parents spayed and neutered." What about the rest of both parent's lines? Will all past and current offspring from that sire and dam be spayed and neutered? How about the sires, dams, brothers and sisters of the parti carrying parents?

Since it may be hard to determine which of approximately 50% of these two line carry the recessive parti gene, will the breeder end both lines and start all over again with new unrelated lines? Spaying the parents of a parti dog, is only putting a band-aide on the situation because the gene is still in those 2 lines ... it will just take the right mating to bring the color out again and if that parti carrying stud was used often, there could be a lot of carrier puppies running around.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I understand and appreciate your dedication to following the standards.

It's interesting that we always hear "if I produce a parti it will be placed in a pet home and it's parents spayed and neutered." What about the rest of both parent's lines? Will all past and current offspring from that sire and dam be spayed and neutered? How about the sires, dams, brothers and sisters of the parti carrying parents?

Since it may be hard to determine which of approximately 50% of these two line carry the recessive parti gene, will the breeder end both lines and start all over again with new unrelated lines? Spaying the parents of a parti dog, is only putting a band-aide on the situation because the gene is still in those 2 lines ... it will just take the right mating to bring the color out again and if that parti carrying stud was used often, there could be a lot of carrier puppies running around.

I can only answer for myself but I wouldn't personally buy from those lines anymore and try and stay away from any breeder that doesn't do what I feel is in the best interest of the yorkie breed and standard.
Thank you for understanding my view point and being nice I try and practice what I preach and stay true to my convictions and on this subject with Parti's I will agree to disagree I hope you can appreciate and understand it

Donna

[bchgirl]

Personally I don't know why parti yorkies couldn't be shown as another variety of the breed. Plenty of other breeds have parti colors shown separately. For that matter, some breeds are even separated by coat type.

Where the gene came from is a moot point...it's here now and the dogs aren't going away.

I can only see benefits of allowing parti's to be evaluated in the ring.

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Personally I don't know why parti yorkies couldn't be shown as another variety of the breed. Plenty of other breeds have parti colors shown separately. For that matter, some breeds are even separated by coat type.

Where the gene came from is a moot point...it's here now and the dogs aren't going away.

I can only see benefits of allowing parti's to be evaluated in the ring.

This is it...bottom line, end of story.

Even if those of us who only want the best for the parti...quit breeding it today...those who breed for the sole purpose of money or those who claim they want just one litter (that's where most of today's pet yorkies come from) will keep the parti growing through the pet population anyway's. One quick look on puppyfind will back up this statement.

I would hazard a guess...that on average...there are at least 20 carriers to every parti born and registered with the AKC. As Debbie mentioned...she tried to get the YTCA to release this info, and they refused. How come? Because contrary to what some have said here...the YTCA is very worried over the parti's growing popularity and the movement to get them recognized.
How many times have we all read on this board...member after member stating their next yorkie will be a Biewer or a Parti. When prices come down even more so...and the pet homes can readily afford them...the parti population will explode whether we like it or not.

So I ask the YTCA members...what good is the DQ helping to better the yorkie breed as a whole? It's not..it's only a quick fix..a band aid to try and keep the parti from infiltrating the show lines. However, they forgot about the parti's greatest weapon...the carrier.

Eventually...they will have no choice but to address this situation in a correct manner and quit sweeping it under the rug with hastily and poorly written DQ's.