Differences between Biewer and Parti Yorkies?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

I wasn't going to post in this thread because it always starts and stops with the same things being said...the exact same false info about the parti's health. I can't speak for other parti owners/breeders but I can speak for me and my dogs. I currently own 3 parti colored Yorkies and did, until recently, have two carriers (one being Livi's baby and one being my male, Huck) and I also raised another parti carrier of Livi's last Summer. With that said, I have had 4 vets now tell me how INCREDIBLY sound and healthy that each and every one of those parti & carriers are!! The babies had more shots today and another exam...the vet bragged on them from this time and also told me that her and the other vet had talked about how extremely nice and sound they were at their last check-up.

I am tired of hearing how we do not know if the parti is healthy or not! I have now owned, with Livi's babies, a total of 6 partis and/or carriers and they are (as all of the vets have said) EXTREMELY healthy!! No, I cannot speak for all partis but I have 6 out of 6 that are perfect. I can't say that for the one traditonal colored Yorkie that I bought from a show breeder.

To say we don't know the safety of the parti gene is not the same as saying the parti gene has certain health risks. Scientists are studying the parti gene in other species, for example, the white lion, and there have been some links between the parti gene and deafness in some breeds, this is not the same as saying the parti gene is dangerous or has certain health risks. If you are aware of the concept of "safety first" you will understand why certain things are slow to change. No one is saying that the parti is any sicklier than any other dog, but certain illnesses do attach themselves to the recessive gene, and while in nature this is not necessarily a problem, because an animal with a serious genetic illness dies before it breeds, domesticated animals are often bred with serious illness, and the genes are passed on. There are some Biewer clubs that are doing rigorous testing in this area, and I admire them for that. I'm a not saying that every parti or biewer has a greater health risk; I'm only saying that the standard should not be changed frivolously, without much regard taken towards safety. I'm not in favor of changing any breed's standard to make the dog more beautiful to puppy buyers.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

To say we don't know the safety of the parti gene is not the same as saying the parti gene has certain health risks. Scientists are studying the parti gene in other species, for example, the white lion, and there have been some links between the parti gene and deafness in some breeds, this is not the same as saying the parti gene is dangerous or has certain health risks. If you are aware of the concept of "safety first" you will understand why certain things are slow to change. No one is saying that the parti is any sicklier than any other dog, but certain illnesses do attach themselves to the recessive gene, and while in nature this is not necessarily a problem, because an animal with a serious genetic illness dies before it breeds, domesticated animals are often bred with serious illness, and the genes are passed on. There are some Biewer clubs that are doing rigorous testing in this area, and I admire them for that. I'm a not saying that every parti or biewer has a greater health risk; I'm only saying that the standard should not be changed frivolously, without much regard taken towards safety. I'm not in favor of changing any breed's standard to make the dog more beautiful to puppy buyers.

Nancy, I'm sorry but your very last sentence has me on the floor laughing!! Seriously, should we then go back to how the Yorkie looked in the very beginning?! Are you really going to say that you feel like the Yorkie was bred down to a much smaller size and with a silky coat for any other reason than making it a more beautiful dog???! Come on, Nancy......

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

I wasn't going to post in this thread because it always starts and stops with the same things being said...the exact same false info about the parti's health. I can't speak for other parti owners/breeders but I can speak for me and my dogs. I currently own 3 parti colored Yorkies and did, until recently, have two carriers (one being Livi's baby and one being my male, Huck) and I also raised another parti carrier of Livi's last Summer. With that said, I have had 4 vets now tell me how INCREDIBLY sound and healthy that each and every one of those parti & carriers are!! The babies had more shots today and another exam...the vet bragged on them from this time and also told me that her and the other vet had talked about how extremely nice and sound they were at their last check-up.

I am tired of hearing how we do not know if the parti is healthy or not! I have now owned, with Livi's babies, a total of 6 partis and/or carriers and they are (as all of the vets have said) EXTREMELY healthy!! No, I cannot speak for all partis but I have 6 out of 6 that are perfect. I can't say that for the one traditonal colored Yorkie that I bought from a show breeder.

Touche!!

Also..let's not forget that it was also stated on this board (by the same person I believe) that parti breeders were inbreeding their dogs as well. That we were breeding our parti sires to their carrier daughters to produce the more expensive parti puppy quicker. Just another scare tatic in an attempt to persuade pet homes from wanting one IMO.

[yorkielady06]

Originally Posted by shamrocks

I have been reading this thread from the begging, and even though I do not have a dog in the fight( no pun intended) I love your passion for the Parti's ,well not just for the Parti's but for all Yorkie's. I love an underdog ( once again no pun intended) and I pray that the Parti will one day get its place in the sun.

Thank you very much. I too hope that someday they get to take their place in the sun. The colors are just striking in the sun too..

I register my dogs with the AKC. I breed ethically and health test all of my dogs. They live in my home and I stand behind each and every one of my babies. I have people who purchased babies from me 10 years ago come and visit at least yearly. Most of my babies are homed through word of mouth.I have had health issues and each time it spurs up I do spay and neuter and find suitable pet homes for free. I educate people on the breed and its health issues. My adults go to nursing homes to visit the elderly and to special education events in schools for handicapped children. I have placed pups for free with special needs kids and am proud of my dogs in the real public.
However, because I chose to accept and even breed a healthy particolored Yorkie I would not be allowed in certain parent clubs if I wanted to join. Same as my parti dog...healthy and tested to be healthy...but cannot be shown. Yet an unhealthy standard colored one can. That needs to change not only with Yorkies but ALL SHOW DOGS.
Time brings change and change is inevitable.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Nancy, I'm sorry but your very last sentence has me on the floor laughing!! Seriously, should we then go back to how the Yorkie looked in the very beginning?! Are you really going to say that you feel like the Yorkie was bred down to a much smaller size and with a silky coat for any other reason than making it a more beautiful dog???! Come on, Nancy......

Glad I could give you a good laugh, but I'm serious about this. I don't know how the Yorkie standard changed and evolved, but I certainly don't think the length of hair is related to any genetic problems, is it? It seems that short hair breeds share many of the same genetic problems as longer haired breeds. Also the term "beauty" is very arbitrary in the dog world, what some breeders have done with their breeds in the name of beauty is anything but.

My point is that there are about 5 different breeds have serious problems because of their standard, not just poor breeders, but because of how their "standard" has evolved. Now that some breed clubs have finally learned that changing the standard or how the ideal dog should look can cause serious problems, we should be very careful about changing the standard. Ten years down the line, we will know much more about safety, what's the rush? If you are breeding for the right reasons, why should it bother you? Think of it this way, many people love a tiny little button nose on a yorkie, should the standard change to include this? I believe a breeder would be wise to wait and see if there are any health concerns associated with a super short muzzle, but I have nothing against tiny button noses, or for that matter, the parti color. No matter which breed I have, I would support the mother club, unless there were known or suspected heath risks to their written standard.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

If you have read all my posts you'd know that health is of the utmost importance with me and then the standard. #1: I don't sell show dogs to anyone so therefore I have no worries about anyone producing something. I breed for show dogs for myself period. #2: Temperament is very important, don't want an aggressive dog nor very timid dog in my breeding program. Parti's are not going to be allowed in the standard anytime soon that I can pretty much say. Just like the Poodle standard they have a DQ as well stating no parti coloreds and that is also a DQ, so it's not only the yorkie breed that doesn't accept the Parti's.
Can't challenge or change the standard if you are not a member of the YTCA and the conceus within the YTCA it's not gonna happen
Donna

See the below link and read the below partial letter posted by EnchantedToi, written to her by Terri Shumsky. I don't know how true this may be but I'd like to think that non YTCA members may have a chance to change the standard in the future ...

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/2430393-post59.html

The AKC Rep, Florence Males, investigated the parti colors and she found that in the 70s AKC asked the parent club education chairman, Joan Gordon, if this was a possible color and Joan told them that she had come up with a tri color from breeding two normal color yorkies.
They have been registering them as Parti colors since then. I really don’t see anything wrong with it and they could always “show” them in a Variety class like other breeds do when the colors are consistent. Florence told me that if enough of them are bred that AKC would “tell” the parent club that they have to accept a “variety”.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

To say we don't know the safety of the parti gene is not the same as saying the parti gene has certain health risks. Scientists are studying the parti gene in other species, for example, the white lion, and there have been some links between the parti gene and deafness in some breeds, this is not the same as saying the parti gene is dangerous or has certain health risks. If you are aware of the concept of "safety first" you will understand why certain things are slow to change. No one is saying that the parti is any sicklier than any other dog, but certain illnesses do attach themselves to the recessive gene, and while in nature this is not necessarily a problem, because an animal with a serious genetic illness dies before it breeds, domesticated animals are often bred with serious illness, and the genes are passed on. There are some Biewer clubs that are doing rigorous testing in this area, and I admire them for that. I'm a not saying that every parti or biewer has a greater health risk; I'm only saying that the standard should not be changed frivolously, without much regard taken towards safety. I'm not in favor of changing any breed's standard to make the dog more beautiful to puppy buyers.

The white lion does not have a parti gene nor does the dalmation or a few other white breeds. The biewers have a piebald gene and the irish spotting gene.

There is not one Biewer club doing any more testing than any of the other two clubs are. Putting a spin on testing and their dogs are not Yorkies anymore is only that...a spin.

http: Piebald or Extreme Piebald Gene ? Deafness — Samoyed Club of America Education and Research Foundation (SCARF)
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/VetJDeaf2004.pdf
White lion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
White lions are not albino lions. Instead, the white color is caused by a recessive gene known as chinchilla or color inhibitor. They vary from blonde through to near white, however some can also be red. This coloration gives white lions a distinct disadvantage in nature because they are highly visible. This gives them away to their prey and makes them an attractive target for hunters. According to Linda Tucker, in "Mystery of the White Lions - Children of the Sun God" they are bred in camps in South Africa as trophies for canned hunts.
The chinchilla mutation, a recessive gene, gives white lions their unusual colors. A similar gene also produces white tigers. White lions can therefore be selectively bred for zoos and animal shows. Such breeding involves inbreeding of close relatives and can result in inbreeding depression (genetic defects, reduced fertility, and physical defects) although this has not yet been recorded in white lions in zoos it has in white tigers. According to Tucker, white lions in canned hunt camps have been found to have hind-limb paralysis and serious heart defects, indicating a severe level of inbreeding involved in mass-production although they are rare in the wild. People are concerned about the White Lions mating with regular lions.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

The white lion does not have a parti gene nor does the dalmation or a few other white breeds. The biewers have a piebald gene and the irish spotting gene.

If I recall correctly, the dalmation does have the extreme white piebald gene, it's black spotting is a result of a gene that causes "ticking".

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

LOL, yup.



Hah! Ever hear of Occam's Razor? I'm a big fan:

"Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor), is the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one."

I think you may be onto something here, MaryKay .

I like the post back on page 4,056....,
that describes the differences in a factual manner and has nothing to do with parent clubs, etc

I have to go find it... be back

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Simply put...the Biewer originated in Germany (not the UK) in the mid 80's. Over the years it was selectively bred, named after the founder, and a standard was set. The standard is similar to the YT, but calls for specific color placement (white paws, tip of the tail, symetrical coloring on the head and face, etc) and calls for a tail. It has been recognized as a separate breed by some organization and can be shown in some venues. (not AKC)

Partis are tri-colored Yorkies. They can be registered with AKC, but not shown in AKC, but can be in some other venues. There is no standard set for them that allows for the non-standard coloring, but typically, most Parti breeders follow the YT standard with that as the exception.

This is a very good start for a sticky in my opinion

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

If I recall correctly, the dalmation does have the extreme white piebald gene, it's black spotting is a result of a gene that causes "ticking".

You recall correctly...they are extreme piebald.

White dogs with several spots of color are usually piebald, but can be extreme piebald if the spots are few and small. A white dog with markings only on the head is extreme piebald.

In the breeding of white, full color is dominant over piebald. Piebald is dominant over extreme piebald. If your dog has a piebald parent, he's carrying piebald. If he has an extreme piebald parent, he's carrying extreme piebald. If both parents are full colored, it's still possible that he might be carrying either piebald or extreme piebald if there's a piebald or extreme piebald somewhere in his pedigree.

http://www.samoyedhealthfoundation.o...-2013-deafness

[Breezeaway]

What I would like to know is back to the original question" What is the difference between the Parti and the Biewer?"
I would like to know what people think is the difference and why they think they are different. Why do some think they are a separate breed? What do they think the Biewers are mixed with to make them a separate breed? Why shouldn't they be bred back to partis or yorkies if they are from Yorkshire Terriers? I have my own theory but wanted to hear others.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Why do some think they are a separate breed? What do they think the Biewers are mixed with to make them a separate breed? Why shouldn't they be bred back to partis or yorkies if they are from Yorkshire Terriers?

I actually don't think they are a different breed. I thought the history of them was that they originated from standard colored Yorkies. (I know some Biewer clubs feel otherwise.) Is is possible that some other breed was integrated somewhere, way back when? I suppose so. Will we ever know for certain? Mmmm...probably not. But they are recognized as a separate breed, not merely a variation, by the venues that allow them to be registered and shown, sooo....

[puppylove11]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

If you have read all my posts you'd know that health is of the utmost importance with me and then the standard. #1: I don't sell show dogs to anyone so therefore I have no worries about anyone producing something. I breed for show dogs for myself period. #2: Temperament is very important, don't want an aggressive dog nor very timid dog in my breeding program. Parti's are not going to be allowed in the standard anytime soon that I can pretty much say. Just like the Poodle standard they have a DQ as well stating no parti coloreds and that is also a DQ, so it's not only the yorkie breed that doesn't accept the Parti's.
Can't challenge or change the standard if you are not a member of the YTCA and the conceus within the YTCA it's not gonna happen.
Donna

Liked I have stated on other occasions, CLOSED MINED! The reason some other breeds have a variety showing is because they are NOT closed minded! Sooner or later the closed minded people of the ytca will have a wake-up call and realize they are not God. I do believe as long as there are reputable parti breeders with the breeds best interest at heart the ytca will get what they so deserve. Part of the job is already done. They are already recongized by akc rather the ytca likes it or not.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I actually don't think they are a different breed. I thought the history of them was that they originated from standard colored Yorkies. (I know some Biewer clubs feel otherwise.) Is is possible that some other breed was integrated somewhere, way back when? I suppose so. Will we ever know for certain? Mmmm...probably not. But they are recognized as a separate breed, not merely a variation, by the venues that allow them to be registered and shown, sooo....

Actually all the clubs agree they originated from standard colored Yorkies. The dogs came out of the Streamglen Kennels in England (top show breeders and the dogs were registered with the Kennel Club of the UK) to Mr. Biewer who also was considered a top Yorkie breeder in Germany. Some from Streamglen went to a top AKC show breeder in California (the pedigree's are all there for both the Germany dogs and the American dogs). All of this is documented here with pedigree's and stud books:

Welcome To Lowood Farm - Home

If people really want to educate themselves they will also read many of the old books that have been posted here on this thread...at the turn of the century YORKIE breeders were throwing all sorts of terriers into the mix. It is stated in these books.

I believe these are the same dogs based on the pedigree's that are listed on Debbie's website. To dispute pedigree's makes no sense to me because then you would have to dispute every AKC pedigree out there...along with some of the top Yorkie showbreeders of our times..It is all there if people would stop debating and start reading.

P.S. Many shortcuts were taken by people who either just wanted to sell dogs or who wanted to go into the showring so you end up with many non factual statements...i.e. different breed..