Tail docking

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

omg i haven't heard that one before.. HA there is NO feeling, no nerves in the umbilical cord.

Most of the time I am not even looking at my dog's hind end anyhow..teehee

I hadn't either. I usually am not looking at Maddie's hinny either, cept when she plops it own in my face in the mornings. ewww what a sight to wake up to...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Oh, I meant to make a suggestion for the breeders here who either dock their pups tails, or have the vet do it - why not make a video for uTube showing how it's done? If the pups show mild distress, you can also film them getting their nails cut or something else, and demonstrate that they don't seem bothered.

The only vids I've seen show the pups acting *very* distressed, and that weighed against assurances that it's not really painful, well, seeing is believing.

Did I miss these videos being posted you're mentioning in the 2nd paragraph, or do you mean these are videos you've seen along the way?

I guess now that this has turned into such a big discussion...I would like to see proof that it doesn't cause pain for the puppy.

Because if it does cause pain, then in my opinion a decision needs to be made - First) it needs to be determined if this is still indeed medically/hygienically/preventively needed and then Second) If the answer is yes, then anesthesia (local) *must* be used to manage this pain, in my opinion. We cannot perform a surgical procedure that clearly causes pain, without anesthetic, when anesthetic is readily available.

Is this a dumb question...even if it causes mild pain...why not just inject local lidocaine? I don't understand (esp. as a nurse)...I'm kind of confused there...

And I guess then Third) If it is determined to not be medically/hygienically/preventively needed, then I would hope this topic becomes a top priority, bc it would be a true priority, at that point, for the future of this breed, in my humble opinion.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Did I miss these videos being posted you're mentioning in the 2nd paragraph, or do you mean these are videos you've seen along the way?

I guess now that this has turned into such a big discussion...I would like to see proof that it doesn't cause pain for the puppy.

Because if it does cause pain, then in my opinion a decision needs to be made - First) it needs to be determined if this is still indeed medically/hygienically/preventively needed and then Second) If the answer is yes, then anesthesia (local) *must* be used to manage this pain, in my opinion. We cannot perform a surgical procedure that clearly causes pain, without anesthetic, when anesthetic is readily available.

Is this a dumb question...even if it causes mild pain...why not just inject local lidocaine? I don't understand (esp. as a nurse)...I'm kind of confused there...

And I guess then Third) If it is determined to not be medically/hygienically/preventively needed, then I would hope this topic becomes a top priority, bc it would be a true priority, at that point, for the future of this breed, in my humble opinion.

I understand your concern. Also, being an x-nurse.

I'm not a canine, but, I can only answer based on my experience. Do they whimper, yes, for a matter of seconds, not even a minute. So, in my opinion the discomfort I would liken to that of giving an injection. And I say this because mine scream louder when I give them their vaccinations.

On the lidocaine, vets do not recommend anything at this young age as it can cause more harm than good.

Now I've had to Sub-Q a 24 hour old pup. And the screaming was more heart wrenching then.....and I know this is no comparison, because it was a matter of attempting to save a pups life.

Oh! on the dew claws....I get no crying or whimpering. When I begin clipping nails....now that's another story.....mine scream before I even approach their feet.

This debate has been around forever, and there are pros and cons on each side. We just need to agree to disagree. Like Donna says, there are more important issues facing our breed than the tail docking debate. I for one wish to put my efforts on Shunt (as that is still very up in the air and until a DNA Marker is found, breeders are breeding blindly), PLE, LP, PRA......

Mary

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by yorkie mad

I think this is the most polite debate yet!
Well done everyone at last we are all listening to each other instead of bitching. Lots to learn from this thread.
I don't like oreo's.

I'm just glad someone finally had the courage to say it.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I understand your concern. Also, being an x-nurse.

I'm not a canine, but, I can only answer based on my experience. Do they whimper, yes, for a matter of seconds, not even a minute. So, in my opinion the discomfort I would liken to that of giving an injection. And I say this because mine scream louder when I give them their vaccinations.

On the lidocaine, vets do not recommend anything at this young age as it can cause more harm than good.

Now I've had to Sub-Q a 24 hour old pup. And the screaming was more heart wrenching then.....and I know this is no comparison, because it was a matter of attempting to save a pups life.

Oh! on the dew claws....I get no crying or whimpering. When I begin clipping nails....now that's another story.....mine scream before I even approach their feet.

This debate has been around forever, and there are pros and cons on each side. We just need to agree to disagree. Like Donna says, there are more important issues facing our breed than the tail docking debate. I for one wish to put my efforts on Shunt (as that is still very up in the air and until a DNA Marker is found, breeders are breeding blindly), PLE, LP, PRA......

Mary

Very helpful, Mary . We don't have to agree to disagree yet...bc I haven't disagreed w/ anyone officially !

The 'whimpering only for a few seconds' is helpful, bc I have given a shot/vax to a dog before (twice) and OMG, it scares the crap out of me. I thought it would be no biggie, I was wrong. It was just a subQ shot both times, and it's a real eye opener, in terms of their response. They were not happy.

So, if a pup's response to tail-docking is indeed similar to a vaccination response, that at least gives me something I can personally compare it to, as I've seen this/performed this (injection) in person.

I apologize if this issue doesn't seem important, it's never my intention to make a mountain out a mole hill. It does feel important though, I guess? And I don't mean to imply that LS isn't just as important or perhaps more important, I just also think that this is a important too .

I so appreciate your opinion.

[Nancy1999]

I don't think it is done for purely cosmetic reasons because if that were true, there would be no exceptions for working breeds. It's done because a tail breakage in later life is extremely painful. For the sake of argument though, lets compare it to the piecing of baby girls ears, now this is done purely for the cosmetic reasons. It is painful, and the baby has no say-so in the procedure. While I've heard of puppies continuing to nurse through the procedure of cropping, I'm sure the pain involved with ear piecing is more intense. Now some of you probably think we should outlaw this as well, it's causing the girls pain, but is it really "cruel". I think that's where the argument lies, is this procedure "cruel" or merely painful. It's over quickly, although with baby girls they have to do it twice, however, I'm not sure you could call it cruel. Although, I would not inflict this pain on my baby girl, I do not believe I have the right to make laws to prevent others from doing it, if I thought it were indeed cruel, than I would be ok with making the law, but I really feel strongly about not making a law for everything we think is "wrong."

As far as causing pain for the dogs, if we stopped doing everything that caused them pain, we'd probably have to stop breeding them. Don't mama's experience lots of pain during birth? Again, is this cruel?

[Brooklynn]

I think I mentioned to Wylie's mom and used her quote to say it's been handled in a very adult manner a couple of pages back

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Very helpful, Mary . We don't have to agree to disagree yet...bc I haven't disagreed w/ anyone officially !

The 'whimpering only for a few seconds' is helpful, bc I have given a shot/vax to a dog before (twice) and OMG, it scares the crap out of me. I thought it would be no biggie, I was wrong. It was just a subQ shot both times, and it's a real eye opener, in terms of their response. They were not happy.

So, if a pup's response to tail-docking is indeed similar to a vaccination response, that at least gives me something I can personally compare it to, as I've seen this/performed this (injection) in person.

I apologize if this issue doesn't seem important, it's never my intention to make a mountain out a mole hill. It does feel important though, I guess? And I don't mean to imply that LS isn't just as important or perhaps more important, I just also think that this is a important too .

I so appreciate your opinion.

I understood completely what you were saying and was only attempting to answer your questions from my point of view and somewhat put some perspective into the conversation.

I hate docking tails, giving injections, etc. I hate whelping a litter, now that's pain that I can relate too and I cry when my girls are in labor.

But, on the statement of agreeing to diagree....I only meant that this subject can be debated over and over again and the outcome is still the same.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

For the sake of argument though, lets compare it to the piecing of baby girls ears, now this is done purely for the cosmetic reasons. It is painful, and the baby has no say-so in the procedure. While I've heard of puppies continuing to nurse through the procedure of cropping, I'm sure the pain involved with ear piecing is more intense. Now some of you probably think we should outlaw this as well, it's causing the girls pain, but is it really "cruel". I think that's where the argument lies, is this procedure "cruel" or merely painful. It's over quickly, although with baby girls they have to do it twice, however, I'm not sure you could call it cruel. Although, I would not inflict this pain on my baby girl, I do not believe I have the right to make laws to prevent others from doing it, if I thought it were indeed cruel, than I would be ok with making the law, but I really feel strongly about not making a law for everything we think is "wrong."

I don't really agree with piercing young girls ears either until they have a say in it. A lot of little girls want pierced ears. My little cousin was 3 years old when she voiced wanting it done, so they let her. She was in pain but she at least had a say in what was being done to her.

I don't think taildocking or ear piercing a young baby is cruel. I just think it's pointless.

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I'm not a canine, but, I can only answer based on my experience. Do they whimper, yes, for a matter of seconds, not even a minute. So, in my opinion the discomfort I would liken to that of giving an injection. And I say this because mine scream louder when I give them their vaccinations.

But vaccinations in children and canines alike are necessary (at least most people would agree! Over-vaccination is something that's happening but of course, that's a seperate issue). But a pup getting an injection to protect it from diseases different from docking a tail in my opinion because it's not needed.

[WinstonMom]

My vet does the tail docking for me (I don't like doing it). I am sure there is some pain involved but how can any of us ever judge how much when we have not personally had these procedure done. I have never had a pup be bothered by it once it was finished and my vet quit handling them. I am sure that puppies have a survival mechanism hard-wired in them to scream for their mama whenever they feel uncomfortable or threatened. Human babies scream as well, when they are examined by doctors. They are uncovered, cold and feel vulnerable.
My pups scream an awful lot more when they get their microchips implanted and I don't blame them a bit, I would scream too if someone tried to stick that needle in me.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I understood completely what you were saying and was only attempting to answer your questions from my point of view and somewhat put some perspective into the conversation.

I hate docking tails, giving injections, etc. I hate whelping a litter, now that's pain that I can relate too and I cry when my girls are in labor.

But, on the statement of agreeing to diagree....I only meant that this subject can be debated over and over again and the outcome is still the same.

Well said Mary!

I agree the outcome will be the same....I like what Nancy said...I don't believe it's cruel as when my puppies tails are done the pain they have is the same pain they have when I've given shots ect...
I remember labor pains but never went through natural child birth but had a c section so I can relate to what a bitch is going through with labor pains and a c-section and we choose to breed that whelping does cause pain and trust me docking a tail is so minor to compared what labor pains and birthing can be....
Those are pains I know some can really relate too.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Britster

I

But vaccinations in children and canines alike are necessary (at least most people would agree! Over-vaccination is something that's happening but of course, that's a seperate issue). But a pup getting an injection to protect it from diseases different from docking a tail in my opinion because it's not needed.

Ahh! But that is a misnomer......just because you vaccinate a pup....doesn't mean they won't contract parvo.....and I do know of several pups that have contracted it from the vaccination. As for rabies vaccines, I know of yorkies that have died from it.

As for earpiercing on an infant vs an older child. Had my girls done as an infant by the pediatrician......no pain, no screaming, she was asleep and it didn't wake her.

[Wylie's Mom]

By the way, I just want to mention that I have zero interest, at this point, in "banning" tail docking or making a law about it.

At this point, I want to understand more about it for yorkies, and gather information, which is what I hope this thread is about.

If it ever came to evolving for the *yorkie*, I actually would hope it would come from the YTCA, not the law. Because if there was a benefit to *not* docking, I would think members of the YTCA would see that, embrace it, and then work to change it, if it was truly in the best interest of the breed.

I mean really, if we are so backwards that we actually need to create a LAW to stop something that involves body parts...then we are in real trouble. That's why I'm gathering a lot of info...I just can't really fathom that people would do this just....for looks, alone.

I don't buy that bc I know some of these breeders, and that's not where there integrity lives.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Britster

I don't really agree with piercing young girls ears either until they have a say in it. A lot of little girls want pierced ears. My little cousin was 3 years old when she voiced wanting it done, so they let her. She was in pain but she at least had a say in what was being done to her.

I don't think taildocking or ear piercing a young baby is cruel. I just think it's pointless.



But vaccinations in children and canines alike are necessary (at least most people would agree! Over-vaccination is something that's happening but of course, that's a seperate issue). But a pup getting an injection to protect it from diseases different from docking a tail in my opinion because it's not needed.

Well a docked tail "IS" required to show in the conformation ring in the USA so yes in a show breeders arena it is needed..BUT with that said I wouldn't do it IF I KNEW it would cause my dogs great pain and life long suffering which it's been proven for many years that's not the case
I still think that other life threatening issues are way more important...but if one choose not to dock honestly I don't mind but just know it's not suppose to be in the show ring because it's not what the standard calls for and please don't get upset if I would tell you it's not following the rules of the standard

Donna

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

By the way, I just want to mention that I have zero interest, at this point, in "banning" tail docking or making a law about it.

At this point, I want to understand more about it for yorkies, and gather information, which is what I hope this thread is about.

If it ever came to evolving for the *yorkie*, I actually would hope it would come from the YTCA, not the law. Because if there was a benefit to *not* docking, I would think members of the YTCA would see that, embrace it, and then work to change it, if it was truly in the best interest of the breed.

I mean really, if we are so backwards that we actually need to create a LAW to stop something that involves body parts...then we are in real trouble. That's why I'm gathering a lot of info...I just can't really fathom that people would do this just....for looks, alone.

I don't buy that bc I know some of these breeders, and that's not where there integrity lives.

Great post!