Biewer Terrier or Biewer Yorkshire Terrier

[kathy785]

I think they should be called Biewer Terriers because:
1. AKC (YTCA) will not approve of the Yorkshire name. It will still be years before we are accepted, but might as well get use to it now.
2. DNA tests have proven they are not 100% yorkie. I know it is only about 80% accurate, so wouldn't 8 of the eleven tested here have come back as yorkie?
Germany is not now or has it ever tried to get FSS acceptance, so the name yorkshire is not taboo to the desired registry. The IBC only registers Biewers, so there are not the yorkie people to offend.

Sorry to the general YT population. The clubs did not get along before the whole taking the Yorkshire out of the name, and it doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. The name thing has only added fuel to the fire that was already there. I tell everyone that is looking into the Biewers to go to all three club sites and forums. They need to be completely comfortable with whatever club they decide to go with.

[Pruett]

I Know there are 2 different breeds, the Biewer Terrier, and the Yorkshire Terrier. Although we started out with a few dogs to see if the Biewer Terrier would test true Yorkshire Terrier, we quickly became involved in a major research study because of the results of the first tests. The scientists were so fascinated with the results we ended up having almost a 100 dogs tested to strengthen the findings. Shortly thereafter the BBCI submitted 3 dogs for coat color tests which substantiates the distinct difference between the Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Terrier even more. If you are going to be involved in scientific studies, you have to accepted the findings whether you like them or not.

I think Cindy and Jan made good points about the new breeders not knowing what their doing. Since so many of the Biewer Breeders have never bred anything before buying their dogs 3 or 4 years ago. These people now seem to know more about breeding than most people that have been breeding for decades. They need to listen more and talk less.

As far as health issues in our breed, you two must be privy to information that I am not aware of. I know of the L.S. lines that many people are breeding, is this what you are talking about? Or is it the horrible under bites I've heard about is some of the breeders offspring? We think it is important to share all issues concerning our breed.

[AprilLove]

Originally Posted by Pruett

I Know there are 2 different breeds, the Biewer Terrier, and the Yorkshire Terrier. Although we started out with a few dogs to see if the Biewer Terrier would test true Yorkshire Terrier, we quickly became involved in a major research study because of the results of the first tests. The scientists were so fascinated with the results we ended up having almost a 100 dogs tested to strengthen the findings. Shortly thereafter the BBCI submitted 3 dogs for coat color tests which substantiates the distinct difference between the Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Terrier even more. If you are going to be involved in scientific studies, you have to accepted the findings whether you like them or not.

I think Cindy and Jan made good points about the new breeders not knowing what their doing. Since so many of the Biewer Breeders have never bred anything before buying their dogs 3 or 4 years ago. These people now seem to know more about breeding than most people that have been breeding for decades. They need to listen more and talk less.

As far as health issues in our breed, you two must be privy to information that I am not aware of. I know of the L.S. lines that many people are breeding, is this what you are talking about? Or is it the horrible under bites I've heard about is some of the breeders offspring? We think it is important to share all issues concerning our breed.

Quantity does not always mean Quality. One person is always throwing the " I've been breeding longer than you nanabooboo" line around.
Experience does not just mean in years or time.. Experience is quality of work.
A puppymiller can be kicking out hundreds of pups a year for 15 years, does this make them better than the breeder who has just started in the last 4 years and maybe has not yet produced their first litter? Or maybe are careful to learn all they can before mating two potential breeders?? Or have only produced (carefully) one or two litters?


I think it is fair to say that many of the breeders involved in the Biewers, have all had the same amount of experience with breeding the Biewers as they were only imported in the last few years
For someone to say "I know" then that person needs to provide the facts that support that positive knowledge. "I KNOW" is a very bold statement. Talking down to people that have less time in breeding or any other endeavor, for that matter, is just disrespectful.

Edited to add: I am now guilty of going off topic as the others have, I apologize and I did answer the original topic "DO you consider either or" etc. in my first post on this thread

[sierrapups]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

you did not post a poll. there are guidelines listed to make a thread a poll and you did not follow them.

Sorry! This did NOT start out as a poll. I guess I called that after Livingdustmops brought up a poll on another forum. Please don't wring my neck again!

[Pruett]

I am not talking down to anyone, and yes I can back up my "I Know" statement.
I am big on reading and big on education, but there is still nothing like experience and when it comes to breeding, experience covers a lot not in books.
People that have just starting breeding, can learn a lot from people with experience if they listen. I was not putting anyone down for being new. We all started out new at one time or another.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

"I have to agree - I've seen too many bouncing around home to home because of numerous 'health or fault' reasons - mostly because of breeder misrepresentation and that's a shame for these dogs." Redvette, what are you talking about here--this is a Yorkie problem. I have't seen this with the Biewers.

I agree it's a big problem with yorkies too - for all dogs actually and I said that in my post - but with Biewers being so new - I've read where a few have been returned - resold - basically bounced around - if you go to the breeder review section you can see what I mean & I remember one that was rehomed/re-sold several times...can't remember his name -

but yes - yorkies do have this problem worse than ever now with all the people breeding or buying without not knowing what they're getting into.

I meant no disrespect to the ethical breeders out there - I know they're working very hard for these dogs.

[EnchantedToi]

When following some of the History of the Breed it has always been suggested that the same dogs in America that produced (parti) coloration yorkies ,came from the same kennel of the dogs that the Biewers bred. So we will assume that as previously stated the offspring produced were from two Yorkies out of this Kennel. As the pedigrees state.

Is it possible that another breed was introduced at the originating Streamglen kennel?
Or somewhere else along the line? Well of course it is possible. We all know that the pedigree is only as honest as the person writing it.

My personal preference in my own breeding program is only to refer to the term "yorkshire" when discussing the past history of the breed. But I do know that after more than 20 years the Biewer is Breeding true. I would love to see this breed flourish on its own as it has been doing since 2003.
When it comes down to the name, I will always appreciate the original German heritage of the Biewer. However, beyond that I believe it has had over 20 years to evolve and is continuing to breed true.
Unless of course you take into consideration that some are still advertising and breeding "splitters" for sale. If the Biewer is a breed of its own, why oh why are others still mixing breeds and breeding and advertising splitters!!!
( ok I'm getting off topic)deep breath.

If you look at many of the companion Toy Breeds many in the History will tell you what the breed was originally bred for. ie; ratting etc.With the Maltese it was bred for companionship nothing more. The Biewer is a
The Group Terrier to me personally, and with the research I have done.
Terriers are those bred to go to ground after vermin and other small game.

AKC Breeds by Group
Terrier Group

People familiar with this Group invariably comment on the distinctive terrier personality. These are feisty, energetic dogs whose sizes range from fairly small, as in the Norfolk, Cairn or West Highland White Terrier, to the grand Airedale Terrier. Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Their ancestors were bred to hunt and kill vermin. Many continue to project the attitude that they're always eager for a spirited argument. Most terriers have wiry coats that require special grooming known as stripping in order to maintain a characteristic appearance. In general, they make engaging pets, but require owners with the determination to match their dogs' lively characters.

Mr and Mrs Biewer bred this off colored dogs for companionship .
I myself have chosen to refer to the Breed as singularly Biewer.............. It may have come from an original breeding of two Yorkshire's originally, but after many years of breeding we know that these dogs are breeding true. So i refere to the dog as Biewer...this helps keep us distinct from The Yorkshire's and the Term Terrier do's not fit.........as the Biewers were never bred as gaming and vermin dogs.They were bred for companion and color.
So to answer the original posters question........... I have a Biewer!

Columbia Encyclopedia
Terrier, classification used by breeders and kennel clubs to designate dogs originally bred to start small game and vermin from their burrows or, in the case of several breeds in this group, to go to earth and kill their prey. Today these dogs are raised chiefly as pets. The following breeds are classified as terrirers by the American Kennel Club: airedale terrier, Australian terrier; Bedlington terrier; border terrier; bull terrier; cairn terrier; Dandie Dinmont terrier; fox terrier; Irish terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Lakeland terrier; Manchester terrier; schnauzer (miniature); Norwich terrier; Scottish terrier; Sealyham terrier; Skye terrier; Staffordshire terrier; Welsh terrier; and West Highland white terrier. See dog.

Main Entry:
ter·ri·er
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ē-ər, ˈte-rē-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English terryer, terrer, from Anglo-French (chen) terrer, literally, earth dog, from terre earth, from Latin terra
Date:
15th century
: any of various usually small energetic dogs originally used by hunters to dig for small game and engage the quarry underground or drive it out

thoughts and opinions of one person
Jan

[scrapindee]

It is unfortunate that when there is real information to be shared: genetics, liver shunt, bad bites, testing results, future studies, each group takes it behind closed doors. This hurts all breeders, regardless of breed.

I just read in one of the other sections about someone with a 3 month old 2.5# yorkie wanting to know how she can contact others for studding him--his breeder sounds like a broker, and his mother was only 2.9#. She has no clue why he should be bred--sounds like a good idea I guess.

The ARBA acceptance of the Biewer Terrier as its own breed is the 1st step in a long path. The results of over a 100 Biewers tested shows clearly there was some breed mixing in earlier generations. For those who keep insisting "pureity", the evidence is there or have you all tested your dogs somehow (not using Mars) and can prove there is no other breeds in these lines??

The Biewer Terrier, as a toy dog, will someday be in AKC. Maybe not in our life time, but they will.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by sierrapups

Sorry! This did NOT start out as a poll. I guess I called that after Livingdustmops brought up a poll on another forum. Please don't wring my neck again!

I haven't ever wrung your neck. In fact, I have never even seen your "neck' on here before. i simply made a comment.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

I haven't ever wrung your neck. In fact, I have never even seen your "neck' on here before. i simply made a comment.

excuse me, I take that back. i did read another of your controversial threads recently. i believe if i'm not mistaken some posts were deleted a,d etc. i was just pointing out that you keep saying 'this poll' when in fact, you didn't make a poll. But that doesn't matter. People have posted a lot of good info on here and hopefully it will help someone.

[BamaFan121s]

Wow...yet another thread about Biewers filled with nothing but bickering and arguing. Why oh why am I not surprised... God have mercy on the person that ever wants to actually learn something about these fabulous dogs! Sadly, trying to sort through the insults and arguments leaves a bad taste in your mouth before you even have a chance to get started--I gave up trying a while back.
Seems like there are so many passionate people trying to rush and stake their claim in being the 'pioneers' of the breed here in the US that there is something very important being overlooked in the equation--THE DOGS!

One thing the efforts are certainly creating is a bunch of people who cringe everytime they see the subject brought up! There are alot of people being turned off of Biewers because claws cannot be retracted long enough for a civil discussion to take place that might actually benefit others looking to learn about the dogs.

As for BiewerTalk--if my memory serves me correctly, the site was formed a while back due the requests of YT members who got tired of seeing arguments just like THIS ONE repeatedly hashed out here on YT! Take note and if it is something that started there or some other forum or it's BiewerTalk admin that is an issue (as indicated in this thread), do the rest of us a favor and keep it there--don't use YT as a venue to hash out personal issues!

[Pruett]

This thread ask a very simple question and who turned it in to a debate, but the very people complaining about the bashing and arguing.

Since we are talking about why the two are separate breeds and I found that the research that the BBCI was involved in was very helpful, I would also like to ask the BYTNC about all the research they are doing on the piebald gene and who they are working closely with? Thanks

[AngelMia]

Originally Posted by kathy785

I think they should be called Biewer Terriers because:
1. AKC (YTCA) will not approve of the Yorkshire name. It will still be years before we are accepted, but might as well get use to it now.
2. DNA tests have proven they are not 100% yorkie. I know it is only about 80% accurate, so wouldn't 8 of the eleven tested here have come back as yorkie?
Germany is not now or has it ever tried to get FSS acceptance, so the name yorkshire is not taboo to the desired registry. The IBC only registers Biewers, so there are not the yorkie people to offend.

Sorry to the general YT population. The clubs did not get along before the whole taking the Yorkshire out of the name, and it doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. The name thing has only added fuel to the fire that was already there. I tell everyone that is looking into the Biewers to go to all three club sites and forums. They need to be completely comfortable with whatever club they decide to go with.

Okay, this is my opinion and as I respect all others I hope you will respect mine.
All three clubs BBCI - BYTNC - BTCA has known for a very very long time that YTCA suggested to drop the name Yorkshire for the sake of having an opportunity to be recognized as a breed of it's own. Regardless of the Biewer's being originated from Yorkshires we need to move on.
I know many don't care if we are recognized by AKC, some will settle just showing in International Venues ect. others want to see this beautiful Breed in the AKC ring along with the toy group. Wouldn't that be exciting? Yes, we still have alot of work and not just ready, but one step at a time and we are working on many issues as we speak.
The original Standard set by Mr. Biewer states Biewer Yorkshire a la Pom pon.
YES, many peds and registrations include the word Terrier, how it got there no one knows! Mistake maybe? Look at the original standard that was set by Mr. Biewer and you will see it did not include Terrier.
Regardless of what it stated and what some of our peds say, I suggest again JMO!
They to be called Biewer a la Pom pon!
Drop the Yorkshire for the sake of complying with YTCA and drop the Terrier which some have an issue with and was never on the standard, though Yorkshire is but again let's move on.
Yorkshire will be there always, it's the Biewer's heritage and history. That is the way it will be written up history!
Let's look forward and keep it civil for the sake of this beautiful Breed The Biewer's!

[dogmomma]

boy, am I behind what is a briewer yorkie?

[GreenwoodBiewer]

I appreciate this discussion and hope it can remain a discussion.

My opinon is not so much "what" the dog is called.. there maybe valid reasons TO change the name someday, that is not the issue I have. If, after years of experience with this dog, the majority of the Biewer Community feels a need for discussions on the future path of the Biewers, great, I would welcome that day.

What concerns me is that one VERY small group of people have taken it on themselves TO try and change the name. The dogs have been in this country for a very VERY short time (around 5 years)... What gives any of us the right just to go off and decide that we can just go change a name and or a standard of a dog in such a short time?

There was NO discussion amongst the majority of the Biewer breeders/owners or other clubs (although as you can see discussions don't work that great) Just a very small handful of people deciding what they wanted to do. The chance that the rest of the Biewer world is just going to "fall in line" with this is an issue and unfortunately it gets in the way of people coming together to discuss and move forward.

In an ideal world, the German breeders and the owners/breeders/fanciers in this country (and others too of course) could hold a discussion and get input from ALL of those concerned. This is a lovely lovely breed and far to precious to be manipulated by just a few people.

The history of the Biewers is still being written and there are many who care deeply about how this story goes. JMO

-Diana