Beyond CM TO THOSE THAT DEFEND CM

[fran78]

while little yorkies may not need firmer training .what happens if you have a 10 stone rotty who is very dominant and aggressive and would hurt somebody ,do you think this owner has the time to do the slowly slowly approach or would cesars method work quicker and be just what the dog needs and wants to be balanced and know its true place

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I have come to the conclusion that you will not answer any question with a simple yes or no answer and then qualify that answer with an explanation. It is very difficult to understand your responses because you don't stay on topic. You were the one who started the thread and you were the one who indicated that Cesar somehow damaged your dog. It is reasonable that we would want to know the breed of dog we are talking about.

It is unfair to Cesar Milan, who is not here to defend himself, and it is very unfair to the entire YT membership. I say this to him If he was here or anywhere else.


Am I to assume that this is the only dog that you own and it's a Yorkie (i.e. your user ID YorkieMother).[COLOR="red"]You would be wrong about one dog[COLOR="red"] What is the problem with smoking or drinking? That doesn't make much sense. Trigger for her , makes no sense to me but to her she it does I understand that secondhand smoke is unhealthy, but dogs don't -- does she have a breathing problem? And why would this dog give a flying flip if someone had a beer?

Trigger not on a gun is a clinical term for what sets a dog off and we do not know why.. if only they spoke words.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by fran78

while little yorkies may not need firmer training .what happens if you have a 10 stone rotty who is very dominant and aggressive and would hurt somebody ,do you think this owner has the time to do the slowly slowly approach or would cesars method work quicker and be just what the dog needs and wants to be balanced and know its true place

How about a 130 pound guard breed. bent on biting someone. Yes we did and yes we do and yes he is doing better. Slow is best rammy can get you bit. Quick is wrong on a dog with is not wired right or chemically imbalacne and you do not know until it is to late. Better slow and watch for indicators.
Yes not breed specific yet again not needed a big dog is a big dog and breed prejudice need not be a part of this conversation. Works for all breeds for chis to pits to airdales to saints

JL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Trigger not on a gun is a clinical term for what sets a dog off and we do not know why.. if only they spoke words.

JL

Actually I KNOW what a trigger is and I know what a bridge is

I am curious, how old was this dog when you acquired her?

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

How about a 130 pound guard breed. bent on biting someone. Yes we did and yes we do and yes he is doing better. Slow is best rammy can get you bit. Quick is wrong on a dog with is not wired right or chemically imbalacne and you do not know until it is to late. Better slow and watch for indicators.
Yes not breed specific yet again not needed a big dog is a big dog and breed prejudice need not be a part of this conversation. Works for all breeds for chis to pits to airdales to saints

JL

A 130 lb. guard dog bent on biting someone is a prime example of a irresponsible dog owner. That situation is what gives certain breeds of dogs bad reputations.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Actually I KNOW what a trigger is and I know what a bridge is

I am curious, how old was this dog when you acquired her?

She came to me after one owner and with in the time it takes to rewire a brain so under three. She was still a puppy.
So you know dogs mature physically at one socially at two and mentally at three but when wiring is broke it broke. Oh and we had a relapse right at three that crushed the brain ok mad mush out of it mentally, so we rewired into four.
Bridge is that which you use to prolong a behavior so a keep going you got it right until the end and reward.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

A 130 lb. guard dog bent on biting someone is a prime example of a irresponsible dog owner. That situation is what gives certain breeds of dogs bad reputations.

NO there lays the biggest problem in all of this. It is too easy to slap the owners with the blame..
Ok hang on...yup you bet the owners need to soicalize and train and all the good things for dogs but what if it is gene pool.... I know you do not like me talking science but there is a study I am watching on tests being done that follow gentic fear marks and most aggression is fear in sevearl purebreed dogs lines..yes I offer my girl.
Lines of dogs have these markers running through them and if you do not know you can not do an end run around it until it is to late. So just like LP or LS or hip dysplaxi ok that is not splet right and spell check does not like it either. You have to breed it out...No way am I blaming breeders for that which is just starting to be understood. This is why understanding the science is so important. I also know you hate it when I say it but CM is old science he does not get the genetics or the chemical end he blames it on the owners...easy out.
It is far from easy.
JL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

She came to me after one owner and with in the time it takes to rewire a brain so under three. She was still a puppy.
So you know dogs mature physically at one socially at two and mentally at three but when wiring is broke it broke. Oh and we had a relapse right at three that crushed the brain ok mad mush out of it mentally, so we rewired into four.
Bridge is that which you use to prolong a behavior so a keep going you got it right until the end and reward.

JL

Please speak in plain English and in specifics. Exactly what happened to this dog before she came to you and what happened to to her that made her relapse.

If her brain was crushed and was mad mush, she'd be a dead doggie. Can you please just explain what happened to the dog and what Cesar Milan had to do with it?

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

NO there lays the biggest problem in all of this. It is too easy to slap the owners with the blame..
Ok hang on...yup you bet the owners need to soicalize and train and all the good things for dogs but what if it is gene pool.... I know you do not like me talking science but there is a study I am watching on tests being done that follow gentic fear marks and most aggression is fear in sevearl purebreed dogs lines..yes I offer my girl.
Lines of dogs have these markers running through them and if you do not know you can not do an end run around it until it is to late. So just like LP or LS or hip dysplaxi ok that is not splet right and spell check does not like it either. You have to breed it out...No way am I blaming breeders for that which is just starting to be understood. This is why understanding the science is so important.

JL

You STILL haven't answered one direct question.

You are couldn't be more wrong. Owners ARE to blame. They are solely responsible for their dogs. If they can't handle them then the dog deserves someone who can. Plain and simple -- owners are 100% responsible for their dogs and the actions of their dogs.

[chattiesmom]

The thread has gotten way off topic. Back to Cesar Milan and your dog. Exactly what did Cesar Milan do to affect this dog? Did he train the dog prior to you owning her? Did the owner mis-use some of his methods out of ignorance? Please let's stay right on topic -- which is Cesar.....

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Please speak in plain English and in specifics. Exactly what happened to this dog before she came to you and what happened to to her that made her relapse.

If her brain was crushed and was mad mush, she'd be a dead doggie. Can you please just explain what happened to the dog and what Cesar Milan had to do with it?

OK I do not know what happend to her before she came to me.....If only.
What happened to her she crashed so eyes rolled back in head brain shuts down fear takes over she loose any idea of where she is at. brain is mush.. gone she not home........ You tell me why. If we had it all figured out we be singing but it is over simply to blame me as a lazy owner or her as dominate when she and I are neither nor ever have been although she and I have been labeled both and proven many wrong.
This girl will drop at full run at a trigger on a down on a good day and it happened with practice not an alpha roll... you roll her she will fight till one of us is dead....

Now last part CM trains from rough. He slices and dices and wham bam thank you zap aloha roll make brains mush all done.
But if he tries that on a dog with a brain not wired right you get....dead.
He does not take time to consider is that what he does can and does cause harm...hello he was been cited.....He does not understand genetics or aggression or chemical aggression nor do you and advising anyone to use his method is only going to get someone bit and he has. When working with a dog that can and does bit you do not allow them the chance to rehearse that behavior you do everything possible to have it not happen.

He uses flooding..ohh I have tried that ...no a brain that does not run right should not be flooded...yuck....thing is you can not tell if a brain runs right until you try it so best bet is just not too. When we can do it different by desensitization.

I tried it for three heart beats in a seminar that was to help my girl...that did not last long as I stopped it. I say we paid the fall out was all that night....ever seen a dog in a night mare panic attack.. or joy oh bliss...not.She wakes up and does not clue in where she is you get bit.

JL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

OK I do not know what happend to her before she came to me.....If only.
What happened to her she crashed so eyes rolled back in head brain shuts down fear takes over she loose any idea of where she is at. brain is mush.. gone she not home........ You tell me why. If we had it all figured out we be singing but it is over simply to blame me as a lazy owner or her as dominate when she and I are neither nor ever have been although she and I have been labeled both and proven many wrong.
This girl will drop at full run at a trigger on a down on a good day and it happened with practice on an alpha roll... you roll her she will fight till one of us is dead....

Now last part CM trains from rough. He slices and dices and wham bam thank you zap aloha roll make brains mush all done.
But if he tries that on a dog with a brain not wired right you get....dead.
He does not take time to consider is that what he does can and does cause harm...hello he was been cited.....He does not understand genetics or aggression or chemical aggression nor do you and advising anyone to use his method is only going to get someone bit and he has. When working with a dog that can and does bit you do not allow them the chance to rehearse that behavior you do everything possible to have it not happen.

He uses flooding..ohh I have tried that ...no a brain that does not run right should not be flooded...yuck....thing is you can not tell if a brain runs right until you try it so best bet is just not too. When we can do it different by desensitization.

I tried it for three heart beats in a seminar that was to help my girl...that did not last long as I say the fall out all that night....ever seen ad dog in a night mare panic attack.. or joy oh bliss...not

JL

You CANNOT make a brain mushy -- I thought we were supposed to be scientific. So it sounds like you used the alpha roll in an inappropriate manner and your dog reacted negatively. You are unjustly blaming Cesar Milan and his methods. It sounds like you made a bad judgement call in training this dog and Cesar is a scape goat.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

You STILL haven't answered one direct question.

You are couldn't be more wrong. Owners ARE to blame. They are solely responsible for their dogs. If they can't handle them then the dog deserves someone who can. Plain and simple -- owners are 100% responsible for their dogs and the actions of their dogs.

No we as owners are not always at fault for our dogs action if it is the way they came out of the womb and the fact that you and Ceser do not understand this is why he is so dangerous.
This is bang on topic. just not what you want which is over simple wrongly applied science. You want an easy out Behaviour in animals is just as messed up as that in humans.
There are dogs that are bi polar just like humans it is the humans parents fault.. nope it genetics.


JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

You CANNOT make a brain mushy -- I thought we were supposed to be scientific. So it sounds like you used the alpha roll in an inappropriate manner and your dog reacted negatively. You are unjustly blaming Cesar Milan and his methods. It sounds like you made a bad judgement call in training this dog and Cesar is a scape goat.

She had a mental break down just like a human one. All we know is we had a triggering event what caused it is still not nor every will be fully understood. The pieces of the puzzle are smoke, alcohol and loud sound... after that we do not know. And no I do not drink or smoke so do not blame me.
Ceser is not a scape goat his methods are faulty and he did not invent them he just uses bad science and wrongly applies them.
No alpha roll ever happened in my house.

JL

[chattiesmom]

Ok, I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. You tried an alpha roll on a dog and it didn't work. You tried other ideas gleaned from Cesar and they didn't work for this particular dog.

That doesn't make all of his methods wrong for all dogs. It simply means that his methods didn't work for this particular dog.

One of the most valuable pieces of training information I gleaned was once again from a horse trainer who told me..... If it doesn't work try something else Don't keep doing the same thing.