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Old 01-22-2006, 08:02 AM   #46
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Actually Ch. Shakespeare's Cheatin Heart is Kort's Sire, and I think they liked that sire so much that they bred his son. Otherwise I agree, after doing more research I'm not sure why that would be done. All she could talk about was how beautiful Kort's puppies were. He has a DNA# on his papers, I have found out just means that the sire was used more than the "allowed" number of times in a certain time period so they had to DNA test the litters. Not a bad thing in itself but it can point to larger scale breeding.

I did not let her know about the co-breeder, I just looked that up the other day. (I assumed since I purchased the dog from Susan the other breeder was not an issue, guess I was wrong again.) I have been doing some more follow up research just for my own knowledge and since I did not see the parents I was concerned about a broker/puppy mill, which of course is everyone's fear. I'm confident that he did not come from a mill, however I do feel that he may not have gotten the personal attention that I originally thought he did.

The overbite is funny! Because when we went to the vet last week the first thing she said when she opened his mouth was "nice teeth!" so I guess he doesn't have one. Dogs with overbites are so cute, does her little tongue stick out sometimes?

I don't know that Loki is truly agressive either, but bossy is definately the right word. It's such a struggle not to give in because he's so darn cute. But we don't let him get away with it. He just tries and tries to get us to do what he wants and then gives up and THEN we get up and play with him or whatever. He's on what the trainer calls the no free lunch program. He has to work for everything. Sit, leash on, sit, leash off, tricks for treats, etc. I'm happy when he barks at someone outside, but he'll just start barking his head off when he wants someone to stand in the kitchen and watch him eat. Or he will "ask" to go outside then start barking at you when you put his leash on, like "That's NOT what I wanted!!". If he were a toddler he'd be on the ground crying, screaming, kicking and throwing a fit.

The reason that he gets into trouble with dogs is that he is not polite. I don't think that's agression either, but again a short temper. He doesnt go in looking to pick a fight. There are dog/dog social rules and he breaks them every time. He sniffs other dog, other dog sniffs him and he freaks out! It's like he never learned the rules. I think that's where the 10-12 week socialization (or lack of) comes though. He's just very immature.

When you got Kia did you get to see the parents?

Re: the guarantee. I was specifically told when we bought him that it was a return the puppy for a new one guarantee. Now, EVERYONE gets attached to their puppy even if it gets sick 3 days later. But for something like LP that shows up now a year later, I mean besides the fact that he is our CHILD I have put so much into training & socialization. No WAY would I trade him in and start over. Most people would never consider that. So even though there is a guarantee, I never put much faith in it to begin with and I supposed others shouldn't either. I just don't want this to happen again. It's nice to hear from breeders who do take that guarantee seriously. Thanks for that.

Honestly, going through all of this makes me want to become a breeder some day so that I can make the choices and try to prevent some of these things from happening. It's not something I'd do any time soon, maybe in 10 or 20 years if I found the right people to help me do it right, but I can't imagine anything more rewarding than helping to improve the breed I love so much.
Hi, Erin.

When I got Kia from Susan, I didn't realize she was breeding on such a large scale. No, I did not get to see Kia's sire and dam that day. I did see her sire in the show ring, a few years earlier. I didn't realize it was her practice not to show the sire and dam.

I think I would be inclined to let Susan know that the co-breeder is on the USDA list. She may, or may not know about it. If you don't feel comfortable in calling her, just copy the list and mail it to her.

Sometimes other breeders are deceptive.

(Heres' an example. {Just to clarify, Sydney did not come from Stardust.}The owner of my Sydney's sire, and the owner of Sydney's dam, were doing some breeding. One day I was at the sire owners house and she said, "Sydneys mom is here today for breeding". I went over to the crate and said, "That is NOT Sydneys mom". It turned out, that the owner of Sydney's Dam was lying and saying the breeding didn't take, then, taking advantage of a free repeat breeding and using a different female. When the owner of Sydney's sire, confronted this other breeder, the woman said, "You gave me the wrong dog back when I had her groomed." If that was the case, why did she take the wrong dog?!)

No, her tongue doesn't hang out. The over-bite is expensive. She needs an annual dental because her teeth don't line up when she chews, and she has to eat very tiny kibble. But, she's got the most darling little face ever!

Re: the guarantee. When I got Kia, Susan told me that if there were any medical issues in the 1st year, she would either take her back and replace her, (to which I replied, "I'd never be able to give her up") and she said then we'd work it out where she would pay part of the medical bills. She did say that she would want to know about any genetic issues at any time.

So, this is why I am so surprised that she was not concerned about Loki's L.P.

Sheila
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Yorkieville200
Hi, Erin.

When I got Kia from Susan, I didn't realize she was breeding on such a large scale. No, I did not get to see Kia's sire and dam that day. I did see her sire in the show ring, a few years earlier. I didn't realize it was her practice not to show the sire and dam.

I think I would be inclined to let Susan know that the co-breeder is on the USDA list. She may, or may not know about it. If you don't feel comfortable in calling her, just copy the list and mail it to her.

Sometimes other breeders are deceptive.

(Heres' an example. {Just to clarify, Sydney did not come from Stardust.}The owner of my Sydney's sire, and the owner of Sydney's dam, were doing some breeding. One day I was at the sire owners house and she said, "Sydneys mom is here today for breeding". I went over to the crate and said, "That is NOT Sydneys mom". It turned out, that the owner of Sydney's Dam was lying and saying the breeding didn't take, then, taking advantage of a free repeat breeding and using a different female. When the owner of Sydney's sire, confronted this other breeder, the woman said, "You gave me the wrong dog back when I had her groomed." If that was the case, why did she take the wrong dog?!)

No, her tongue doesn't hang out. The over-bite is expensive. She needs an annual dental because her teeth don't line up when she chews, and she has to eat very tiny kibble. But, she's got the most darling little face ever!

Re: the guarantee. When I got Kia, Susan told me that if there were any medical issues in the 1st year, she would either take her back and replace her, (to which I replied, "I'd never be able to give her up") and she said then we'd work it out where she would pay part of the medical bills. She did say that she would want to know about any genetic issues at any time.

So, this is why I am so surprised that she was not concerned about Loki's L.P.

Sheila
I think I will let her know. I know she doesn't have internet access and maybe she doesn't know?

I'm sorry about Kia's overbite. It's amazing how we can overlook things and just deal with them because we love them so much. But, I don't think the breeders should assume that we will. Whether or not that is the case here I think there is a responsibility to do their best not to let these things happen in the first place and to be upfront about them when they do. Susan was definately concerned when I said "Luxating Patella" but then when I said it was Grade 2 she was insistent that it was no big deal and all Yorkies have bad knees. I said that it IS a big deal. Then she started insisting that he injured it somehow, even though the vet said it's genetic. She didn't seem interested in discussing it further so I told her I would let her know if it gets worse. I just hope it doesn't.
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:22 AM   #48
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In my humble opinion - both LP AND Overbites are serious and not to be taken lightly - While most dogs who have mild cases can live perfectly normal lives ....I have a cocker spaniel that has such a severe underbite she had to be hand fed as a puppy. She literally could not grasp a piece of food.

and even now at 10 years old - she rarely eats out of their food dish....
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:52 AM   #49
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I think I will let her know. I know she doesn't have internet access and maybe she doesn't know?

I'm sorry about Kia's overbite. It's amazing how we can overlook things and just deal with them because we love them so much. But, I don't think the breeders should assume that we will. Whether or not that is the case here I think there is a responsibility to do their best not to let these things happen in the first place and to be upfront about them when they do. Susan was definately concerned when I said "Luxating Patella" but then when I said it was Grade 2 she was insistent that it was no big deal and all Yorkies have bad knees. I said that it IS a big deal. Then she started insisting that he injured it somehow, even though the vet said it's genetic. She didn't seem interested in discussing it further so I told her I would let her know if it gets worse. I just hope it doesn't.
Thanks, Erin. Kia's over-bite is a concern for me, because it scares me to death each year when my vet sedates her to clean her teeth. He is extremely careful with her, but still...I worry because if I lost her, it would devastate me. She is my constant companion. I really wanted another little 4# 'er with her baby face, but after the way Susan has handled the L.P. with your Loki, I cannot afford the risk.

I have to tell you, from talking to other breeders, I don't believe "All Yorkies have bad knees". There are so many wonderful breeders, right here, on this forum, striving to produce the healthiest Yorkies.

Since Susan doesn't have Internet access, I would send her the list. You never know, it might open her eyes to something.

I'm sorry about Loki, and I hope his L.P. won't get worse. But I am glad you posted about him, because people need to be careful.

Sheila
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:57 AM   #50
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In my humble opinion - both LP AND Overbites are serious and not to be taken lightly - While most dogs who have mild cases can live perfectly normal lives ....I have a cocker spaniel that has such a severe underbite she had to be hand fed as a puppy. She literally could not grasp a piece of food.

and even now at 10 years old - she rarely eats out of their food dish....
Your opinion is very important. I agree, severe over-bites and under-bites are serious. And L.P. can cripple a dog. It is certainly changing Erin's Loki's life. Poor little guy can't run and play like a normal 14 mos. old Yorkie.

I'm sorry to hear that your Cocker spaniel has such a severe under-bite. Really unfair for her.

Sheila
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Old 01-22-2006, 09:20 AM   #51
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Thank you Sheila .... It's much easier now ...but when she was a baby I had to literally sit and feed her everyday by hand...and now she's THAT spoiled that I still do. She deserves it - they wanted to put her down because of the underbite..... I ran out of that place with her so fast - she was destined to be with me

and even worse when these poor dogs have such severe LP that they need surgery - I would be so upset if I purchased a puppy and spent thousands of dollars....then found out my yorkie had LP...it DOES affect the quality of their life for sure....not to mention...we all hate seeing them in pain and LP can be very painful for dogs...

I have a friend who's yorkie had surgery on both legs and can't imagine what that was like for both of them....then add the cost on top of it

it's sad that this common problem can't be wiped out and be a thing of the past
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Old 01-22-2006, 09:21 AM   #52
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I think I will let her know. I know she doesn't have internet access and maybe she doesn't know?

I'm sorry about Kia's overbite. It's amazing how we can overlook things and just deal with them because we love them so much. But, I don't think the breeders should assume that we will. Whether or not that is the case here I think there is a responsibility to do their best not to let these things happen in the first place and to be upfront about them when they do. Susan was definately concerned when I said "Luxating Patella" but then when I said it was Grade 2 she was insistent that it was no big deal and all Yorkies have bad knees. I said that it IS a big deal. Then she started insisting that he injured it somehow, even though the vet said it's genetic. She didn't seem interested in discussing it further so I told her I would let her know if it gets worse. I just hope it doesn't.

IMO....the "soundness" of the pup comes first and foremost....then you add all the "bells and whistles, i.e. nice coat, etc. A pup that possesses an even bite means he digests his food properly, and a compact body and straight topline, means his joints are in alignment. These are not qualities that are only for the priviledged Show Quality dog. This is all common sense....we need to take more responsibility when we purchase our pups. You know...in the "Horseshow World", it would be unheard of to ONLY trust the person selling you the horse. An unbiased outside vet or trusted professional would always come with to evaluate the horse. Why this is not done in the dogworld...I have no idea . For most people, this is a huge financial and emotional investment, whether for Show or Pet.


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Old 01-22-2006, 09:30 AM   #53
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IMO....the "soundness" of the pup comes first and foremost....then you add all the "bells and whistles, i.e. nice coat, etc. A pup that possesses an even bite means he digests his food properly, and a compact body and straight topline, means his joints are in alignment. These are not qualities that are only for the priviledged Show Quality dog. This is all common sense....we need to take more responsibility when we purchase our pups. You know...in the "Horseshow World", it would be unheard of to ONLY trust the person selling you the horse. An unbiased outside vet or trusted professional would always come with to evaluate the horse. Why this is not done in the dogworld...I have no idea . For most people, this is a huge financial and emotional investment, whether for Show or Pet.


Francie
Great post, Francie.

Actually, though, Susan, requires that you take your puppy to the vet within 48 hours. However, things such as L.P. and and over-bite do not show up that soon in many cases. My Kia had a perfect bite at 12 weeks.

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Old 01-22-2006, 10:05 AM   #54
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Great post, Francie.

Actually, though, Susan, requires that you take your puppy to the vet within 48 hours. However, things such as L.P. and and over-bite do not show up that soon in many cases. My Kia had a perfect bite at 12 weeks.

Sheila
Kia had a Perfect bite? There must be some way a vet can take a look at the alignment of the bite at a young age..x'rays maybe? What is the point of the 48-hour Vet visit...for viruses?

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Old 01-22-2006, 10:56 AM   #55
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Thank you Sheila .... It's much easier now ...but when she was a baby I had to literally sit and feed her everyday by hand...and now she's THAT spoiled that I still do. She deserves it - they wanted to put her down because of the underbite..... I ran out of that place with her so fast - she was destined to be with me

and even worse when these poor dogs have such severe LP that they need surgery - I would be so upset if I purchased a puppy and spent thousands of dollars....then found out my yorkie had LP...it DOES affect the quality of their life for sure....not to mention...we all hate seeing them in pain and LP can be very painful for dogs...

I have a friend who's yorkie had surgery on both legs and can't imagine what that was like for both of them....then add the cost on top of it

it's sad that this common problem can't be wiped out and be a thing of the past

Villette,

I really believe from reading so many of your posts, that you are truly one of the kindest, most compassionate members of this forum.

God Bless you for taking that precious baby out of that place!!!!

I do believe, that there are many good breeders, trying very hard to improve the health of the breed. So, hopefully, due to their efforts, things such as L.P. and bad bites, will be a thing of the past.

Sheila
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Old 01-22-2006, 11:01 AM   #56
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Kia had a Perfect bite? There must be some way a vet can take a look at the alignment of the bite at a young age..x'rays maybe? What is the point of the 48-hour Vet visit...for viruses?

Francie
Hi, Francie.

Yes, Kia had a perfect bite at 12 weeks, but any dogs bite can change as they grow up. Hers however, is very prominent. When she lays on her little back in my lap, I can see a good quarter inch of the roof of her mouth, (with her mouth closed.)

The purpose of the 48 hour vet visit is to check for serious health problems, and I have to say, Kia passed my vets inspection with flying colors.

And as I've said before, other than the over-bite, she's very healthy, and the sweetest little angel in the world. (Albeit, a "bosssy" one. LOL)

Sheila
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Old 01-22-2006, 12:36 PM   #57
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Thank you again Sheila and I think you're very right - we have lots of really super Breeders here on this site and I Wish their breeding practices were copied all over the country.....

I know no breeder can be perfect ...but many of the breeders right here do their best to try to be and I don't envy them what they do... I AM in awe of it though

and Yorkieville200...You have a good point about not seeing a "bad" bite until they're older - adult teeth can come in crooked or cause a bad bite....Kia sounds like a little sweetie
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Old 01-22-2006, 01:08 PM   #58
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Thank you again Sheila and I think you're very right - we have lots of really super Breeders here on this site and I Wish their breeding practices were copied all over the country.....

I know no breeder can be perfect ...but many of the breeders right here do their best to try to be and I don't envy them what they do... I AM in awe of it though

and Yorkieville200...You have a good point about not seeing a "bad" bite until they're older - adult teeth can come in crooked or cause a bad bite....Kia sounds like a little sweetie
You are most welcome, Villette.

I agree with you, no breeder can be perfect, and no dog can be perfect, (please don't tell my girls I said that!), so, I guess that's why I'm not upset with Susan that Kia has a bad bite. I adore her and she's perfect to me!!! And most importantly, she is so-o-o- healthy!

I don't envy the breeders either. The owner of Sydney's sire tried to convince me to breed years ago, but it's not for me. I could never give up a puppy, so, I'd end up with a houseful. mg:
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Old 01-22-2006, 01:36 PM   #59
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Hi, Francie.

Yes, Kia had a perfect bite at 12 weeks, but any dogs bite can change as they grow up. Hers however, is very prominent. When she lays on her little back in my lap, I can see a good quarter inch of the roof of her mouth, (with her mouth closed.)

The purpose of the 48 hour vet visit is to check for serious health problems, and I have to say, Kia passed my vets inspection with flying colors.

And as I've said before, other than the over-bite, she's very healthy, and the sweetest little angel in the world. (Albeit, a "bosssy" one. LOL)

Sheila


Well...if Kia is healthy...that is ALL that matters.. LOL at "Bossy"..(psst..they wouldn't be the same if they weren't..shhhh)


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Old 01-23-2006, 04:07 AM   #60
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Well...if Kia is healthy...that is ALL that matters.. LOL at "Bossy"..(psst..they wouldn't be the same if they weren't..shhhh)


Francie

I love that feisty part of her personality! Makes me laugh every day.
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