Bile Acid Testing

[Brooklynn]

I will tell you what I'd do if this were to happen....I'd be spaying and neutering the bitch and sire and all puppies produced from that sire and dam and alert either the stud or bitch I got them from and let them know what happend and then let it be their decision as to what they would do with their breeding stock but I would stop it on my end and start over

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I will tell you what I'd do if this were to happen....I'd be spaying and neutering the bitch and sire and all puppies produced from that sire and dam and alert either the stud or bitch I got them from and let them know what happend and then let it be their decision as to what they would do with their breeding stock but I would stop it on my end and start over

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Well it's the ethical thing to do I would hate to know and continue something as horrible as to produce LS and send it to the buying public. If it were an accident then correct it and start over. Nothing wrong with having to start over and stopping the problem when it arises

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Woogie Man]

Abstract
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
December 1, 2003, Vol. 223, No. 11, Pages 1636-1639
doi: 10.2460/javma.2003.223.1636

Association of breed with the diagnosis of congenital portosystemic shunts in dogs: 2,400 cases (1980–2002)

Karen M. Tobias , DVM, MS, DACVS Barton W. Rohrbach , VMD, MPH, DACVPM
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996. (Tobias); Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996. (Rohrbach)

Objective—To determine the annual and overall proportion of diagnoses of congenital portosystemic shunts (CPSS) in dogs and identify breeds at increased risk for CPSS.

Design—Retrospective study.

Animals—2,400 dogs with CPSS from veterinary teaching hospitals that reported to the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) from January 1, 1980 to February 28, 2002.

Procedure—The proportion of diagnoses of CPSS was calculated for all dogs and each breed recorded in the VMDB annually and for the 22.2-year period. Odds ratios and adjusted confidence intervals were calculated for breeds with at least 100 accessions by comparing odds of each breed with a diagnosis of CPSS with that of mixed-breed dogs.

Results—Congenital portosystemic shunts were reported in 0.18% of all dogs and 0.05% of mixedbreed dogs. The proportion of diagnoses of CPSS increased from 5 in 10,000 dogs in 1980 to 5 in 1,000 dogs in 2001. Yorkshire Terriers had the greatest total number of diagnoses of CPSS. Thirty-three breeds were significantly more likely to have a diagnosis of CPSS, compared with mixed-breed dogs. The greatest proportions of diagnoses were found in Havanese (3.2%), Yorkshire Terriers (2.9%), Maltese (1.6%), Dandie Dinmont Terriers (1.6%), and Pugs (1.3%).

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Certain breeds appear to be at increased risk for CPSS, compared with mixed-breed dogs. The increased odds ratios among specific breeds support the hypothesis of a genetic predisposition for CPSS. Clients and veterinarians should consider appropriate diagnostic tests for dogs with clinical signs and those used for breeding from breeds with increased risk of CPSS. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2003;223:1636–1639)

[blitz]

Originally Posted by katelin

WOW! YT and this thread in particular is like life in the fast lane. Slow Down!

I am probably what you would call a "hobby breeder". I am retired and this is my hobby along with raising my grandchildren. I love all of the breeding part of Yorkies and the raising of puppies. But you probably couldn't get me into a ring to show.

I just want to remind everyone that a breeder has to start somewhere. Most of us don't get the breedable show dogs in the beginning. The show dogs are sold on limited registration. Rather we try to find a really good dog to start our line. We try to be responsible about health and conformation and temperament. But we aren't perfect -- and neither are you!

Most people just want a lovable, healthy, fun Yorkie. And I, as a person who loves Yorkies and tries really hard to do her best, can give that to them. So stop putting us down, and INCLUDE us so that we can do better also.

BAT testing or not BAT testing -- you all know that LS could happen to anyone. You can "know" your line, you can test BAT, but still LS can show up unexpectedly -- 8 or 10 years down the line!

You want honesty? We have raised puppies for four years, owned 16 dogs at various times, and then out of the blue we had a puppy with LS. She was the biggest in the litter, she was as healthy as any we had ever raised, and at 14 months she got sick. After much testing, it was finally determined to be LS. We offered to take the puppy back, but who can part with it after over a year in the family. We refunded the money paid for the puppy, but that is a small amount compared to the cost of testing and potential surgery. She is doing well now on a strict diet and meds. But for how long?? Those are the questions that plague her forever owner as well as me.

And yes, I had discussed LS and other potential health concerns for Yorkies with the buyer -- but we had never had any of those problems! It is devastating to all of us.

Now for the worst of it. We just had a litter, but no serious concerns about them. However, the female that threw the LS pup had already been bred when we got the diagnosis. So here we are. As I said before its devastating.

So now we will have to disclose to every potential buyer of ANY of our puppies that we have had an LS puppy. And it will forever taint our reputation as breeders with some, if not most, people.

We are heartbroken. And we don't need to hear any of that snide, snobby, talk that is all too familiar in dog circles. Research! Know Your Line! Only Breed Show Dogs! I thought we did as much right as we could possibly do. I'm heartbroken.

It is devastating what happened to you but you need to deal with it and go on. Rather than the disclosure to all puppy buyers, why don't you bile acid test the puppies yourself and inform the puppy buyers that they have been tested and found clear of LS. That's all. Because of the way this disease pops up and then not pop up, it's possible that all the pups will be fine. However, you might want to inform the owners of the littermates of the affected puppy. Again, it's possible that they are all ok but they should be have a BAT.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

I'm sorry you think certain people are only here to cause trouble because I think you know deep down that isn't true. Just because its something you don't want to hear doesn't mean it's meant to cause trouble. Things have to be said over and over again because people just don't get it no matter what you say or how many times you see it. I think sometimes pride and ego get in the way of education...

You could say pride and etc gets in the way if you weren't talkng to breeders that have already studied this problem front and backwards and are already well aware of it and i would venture to say that most of us knew about it and studied it long before we ever bred our first puppy. I know there are those that just buy dogs and jump right into breeding but I also know that those of us that do actually care, have tried to educate ourselves and research the problems of the breed long before the first puppy was bred. That is not to say that we can't learn because learning is a daily process. Those people tho that we all have seen on the forums lately that have just run out and bought dogs and now want to know how to whelp or how much to sell the puppies for are noticeably absent from this thread. Are you educating those that truly need it? I say not and most likely, they aren't interested in being educated

[blitz]

It's this kind of attitude that makes people not want to be involved in further discussion. There really is no need for sarcasm and Amazing Yorkies impressions of the blood drawing procedure are her impressions. She has a right to share them and not be put down because you have not had the same experience.

My attitude? Dog breeding and especially showing is often cutthroat and I am not like that at all. I have found that a thick skin is invaluable in this business. I am really sorry that you don't like my attitude but I am passionate about this discussion and I can't help but be incredulous when people find reasons to be adverse to progress in this disease. Docking tails are a necessary evil but that is ok? I just can't understand how that can be. A cosmetic procedure that some consider barbaric is acceptable but one that is for health reasons is not acceptable? See, that opinion makes no sense to me, but of course, one is entitled to that opinion and it is my right to express that, as well.

I don't know why you would talk about your local vet in such an unkind way but I wander if he would be offended by your attitude. My vet is my partner in my breeding program. He raises Whippets, has been a long time member of the dog fancy, showed confirmation for years and is presently involved in agility. He answers my call in the middle of the night and the wee hours of the morning. He has talked me through milking a pup down the birth canal and has raced to the office at 6:00am to save my Roxie's life. A good breeder's vet isn't easy to find and I do not change my health protocol without discussing it with him first.

I have no problems with my local vet but he hasn't been invloved in research on LS, has yours? If he has, then he knows the latest findings. If my vet told me to just wait and see and hope a problem doesn't pop up, I'd not take his advice on this particular issue. If I find a problem with a puppy, like hydrocephalus, liver shunt, PDA, etc. I'm going to a specialist, i.e., a neurogist, cardiologist, etc. I'm the one who is responsible for my dogs and I have no problem insisting on certain things and he has no problem with my reasoning. I am proactive in my own health as well, and as an antecdotal aside, I have saved my own life when a doctor told me I was fine but I knew I was not and pushed and pushed my doctor to do more extensive testing. He was white as a ghost when my problem reealed itself to him because I could have easily dropped dead the next day. Perhaps some people wished I'd had because of my bluntness but I'm sorry, I really don't know any other way to be.

I will also discuss my findings on this subject with my mentor before any new tests are performed. She has 18 years experience in breeding and showing yorkies and has been generous enough to agree to share her years of experience with me. When someone has been kind enough to agree to invest in your life in that way you discuss these things with that partner. I have read the research several times and I understand it, I have also read research by Dr. Larry Snyder who disagrees about the best way of testing for this problem. I already posted about what he has to say for anyone who is interested. It is not unusual for even experts to disagree on the best way to proceed in solving a problem, I'm sure they will continue their research and who knows what the answer will be? Meanwhile I am allowed to have remaining questions and to seek answers from others that I respect without censorship from you or anyone else.

Censorship? I respect your relationship with your mentor but does she have an answer to this problem? If you have total faith in Larry Snyder's opinion, so fine, do ATT instead of BAT, if he is the authority that you feel most confident in. I also read that he feels LS is unquestionalbly genetic. I was not able to locate any research online that he has been involved with. If you have a link to some of his research, I would be very interested in reading it.

Please don't take anything personally. This is merely a discussion and we don't even know each other. If a breeder is truly not worried about LS (personally, I feel that anyone who is not has their head in the sand) well, nothing more will be done by her and she is entitled to that and this discussion should be of no interest to her. A breeder who is concerned with this disease will do SOMETHING about it OTHER than finding reasons to deny what is the latest and best information available..

Have you read the post from the breeder who sold a LS puppy? I bet she wished she did some kind of testing on that puppy before she sold it. She is devastated now and I truly feel for her and the owner of the puppy. She had never had it before in her breeding and it just popped up -- that's the sneaky MO of this disease. I would much rather test a puppy than hold my breath every time the phone rings.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by blitz

It's this kind of attitude that makes people not want to be involved in further discussion. There really is no need for sarcasm and Amazing Yorkies impressions of the blood drawing procedure are her impressions. She has a right to share them and not be put down because you have not had the same experience.

My attitude? Dog breeding and especially showing is often cutthroat and I am not like that at all. I have found that a thick skin is invaluable in this business. I am really sorry that you don't like my attitude but I am passionate about this discussion and I can't help but be incredulous when people find reasons to be adverse to progress in this disease. Docking tails are a necessary evil but that is ok? I just can't understand how that can be. A cosmetic procedure that some consider barbaric is acceptable but one that is for health reasons is not acceptable? See, that opinion makes no sense to me, but of course, one is entitled to that opinion and it is my right to express that, as well.

I don't know why you would talk about your local vet in such an unkind way but I wander if he would be offended by your attitude. My vet is my partner in my breeding program. He raises Whippets, has been a long time member of the dog fancy, showed confirmation for years and is presently involved in agility. He answers my call in the middle of the night and the wee hours of the morning. He has talked me through milking a pup down the birth canal and has raced to the office at 6:00am to save my Roxie's life. A good breeder's vet isn't easy to find and I do not change my health protocol without discussing it with him first.

I have no problems with my local vet but he hasn't been invloved in research on LS, has yours? If he has, then he knows the latest findings. If my vet told me to just wait and see and hope a problem doesn't pop up, I'd not take his advice on this particular issue. If I find a problem with a puppy, like hydrocephalus, liver shunt, PDA, etc. I'm going to a specialist, i.e., a neurogist, cardiologist, etc. I'm the one who is responsible for my dogs and I have no problem insisting on certain things and he has no problem with my reasoning. I am proactive in my own health as well, and as an antecdotal aside, I have saved my own life when a doctor told me I was fine but I knew I was not and pushed and pushed my doctor to do more extensive testing. He was white as a ghost when my problem reealed itself to him because I could have easily dropped dead the next day. Perhaps some people wished I'd had because of my bluntness but I'm sorry, I really don't know any other way to be.

I will also discuss my findings on this subject with my mentor before any new tests are performed. She has 18 years experience in breeding and showing yorkies and has been generous enough to agree to share her years of experience with me. When someone has been kind enough to agree to invest in your life in that way you discuss these things with that partner. I have read the research several times and I understand it, I have also read research by Dr. Larry Snyder who disagrees about the best way of testing for this problem. I already posted about what he has to say for anyone who is interested. It is not unusual for even experts to disagree on the best way to proceed in solving a problem, I'm sure they will continue their research and who knows what the answer will be? Meanwhile I am allowed to have remaining questions and to seek answers from others that I respect without censorship from you or anyone else.

Censorship? I respect your relationship with your mentor but does she have an answer to this problem? If you have total faith in Larry Snyder's opinion, so fine, do ATT instead of BAT, if he is the authority that you feel most confident in. I also read that he feels LS is unquestionalbly genetic. I was not able to locate any research online that he has been involved with. If you have a link to some of his research, I would be very interested in reading it.

Please don't take anything personally. This is merely a discussion and we don't even know each other. If a breeder is truly not worried about LS (personally, I feel that anyone who is not has their head in the sand) well, nothing more will be done by her and she is entitled to that and this discussion should be of no interest to her. A breeder who is concerned with this disease will do SOMETHING about it OTHER than finding reasons to deny what is the latest and best information available..

Have you read the post from the breeder who sold a LS puppy? I bet she wished she did some kind of testing on that puppy before she sold it. She is devastated now and I truly feel for her and the owner of the puppy. She had never had it before in her breeding and it just popped up -- that's the sneaky MO of this disease. I would much rather test a puppy than hold my breath every time the phone rings.

DITTO!!! I agree it's not that we are bashing, slamming or critizing anyone, it's something we all should be concerned about breeders and buyers alike.
Again, I try to take a direct approach to questions and not try to be so blunt but again, truth is truth and facts are facts no way around it! I've developed that thick skin from the world of dog showing! LOL
I am here to learn like the rest of you and I've actually learned alot from those more knowlegdeable than I. I never tested with my first through 4 litters but now when I have my 5th litter I will guarantee they will be tested. Or the buyer can test and I will refund the amount of that test! I would be devasted just like one poster on here was/is. I really feel for her!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Woogie Man]

The Scottish Terrier Club of America in 2001 reported a carrier frequency rate for liver shunt at 4.7% based on its own health survey and termed the condition rare. A study on Irish Wolfhounds in the Netherlands identified several important carrier lines and was able to substantially reduce the incidence of liver shunt. Much of the other data I've read points to prolific studs and bitches that are carriers being major contributors to the rise in cases. My opinion at this point is that the problem lies mostly in show dog lines and is a lesser problem in the breed at large. These lines must be identified in the Yorkshire Terrier in order to get a handle on the problem. To place the blame on casual breeders is really 'passing the buck' as they are unlikely to have dogs from show lines though surely there are carriers among some of the dogs they breed, but these dogs would not be so prolific as their more esteemed counterparts. In the meantime, testing all breeding dogs and dogs showing clinical signs seems to be the reasonable way to proceed.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Scottish Terrier Club of America in 2001 reported a carrier frequency rate for liver shunt at 4.7% based on its own health survey and termed the condition rare. A study on Irish Wolfhounds in the Netherlands identified several important carrier lines and was able to substantially reduce the incidence of liver shunt. Much of the other data I've read points to prolific studs and bitches that are carriers being major contributors to the rise in cases. My opinion at this point is that the problem lies mostly in show dog lines and is a lesser problem in the breed at large. These lines must be identified in the Yorkshire Terrier in order to get a handle on the problem. To place the blame on casual breeders is really 'passing the buck' as they are unlikely to have dogs from show lines though surely there are carriers among some of the dogs they breed, but these dogs would not be so prolific as their more esteemed counterparts. In the meantime, testing all breeding dogs and dogs showing clinical signs seems to be the reasonable way to proceed.

How could we possibly know that the majority of liver shunt puppies are from show lines since probably a large number of liver shunt puppies are just being treated by local vets and their shunts are being controlled by diet. Show breeders and people that buy their puppies from show breeders are more likely to seek help from some of the more well know doctors and universities but I think those might just be a fraction of the actual dogs that have liver shunt. Many people opt out of having the liver shunt surgery because of the cost and the risks involved. Even if you have a puppy with a portosystemic shunt that is repairable then there is a good chance they will develop MVD later. How can we possibly know where the shunts are coming from if all breeders don't come forward. If a show breeder does have a liver shunt puppy show up why does everyone think they would not address that problem in their own way? With no central data base on liver shunts how do we really know liver shunts are on the rise? I think we need many more answers and I wish there was a way for those experts to share a little more information without naming names. No one wants to produce a liver shunt puppy or any puppy with a defect but it can happen no matter how hard you try to prevent it, whether you are a hobby breeder or show breeder.

[Woogie Man]

I agree that show breeders and people that buy from them are more likely to seek high quality care. We can't know for certain which dogs are likely to be carriers with no central database. My opinion is that the more prolific a dog is, the more the condition can be spread. This certainly doesn't get anyone 'off the hook' but in order to reduce the incidence these in demand studs and bitches must be identified. The study I read on the Irish Wolfhound showed a 50% drop in the incidence of LS once certain major carriers were identified (I should have bookmarked it; will try to find it again). Though you cannot just graft the findings on the Irish Wolfhound over to the Yorkshire Terrier, common sense will tell you that if the major carriers could be identified the incidence rate will drop. If that could be achieved, further drops would be expected due to filtering out the genetic contributions of carriers in successive generations. In the meantime, it is everyone's problem but I feel prolific carriers must be identified in order to simply get a handle on this. I doubt liver shunt could be eliminated, but the high incidence in Yorkies surely has a specific cause and there are certain, as yet unidentified dogs that are responsible for much of its spread. There is no getting around that.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by bjh

How could we possibly know that the majority of liver shunt puppies are from show lines since probably a large number of liver shunt puppies are just being treated by local vets and their shunts are being controlled by diet. Show breeders and people that buy their puppies from show breeders are more likely to seek help from some of the more well know doctors and universities but I think those might just be a fraction of the actual dogs that have liver shunt. Many people opt out of having the liver shunt surgery because of the cost and the risks involved. Even if you have a puppy with a portosystemic shunt that is repairable then there is a good chance they will develop MVD later. How can we possibly know where the shunts are coming from if all breeders don't come forward. If a show breeder does have a liver shunt puppy show up why does everyone think they would not address that problem in their own way? With no central data base on liver shunts how do we really know liver shunts are on the rise? I think we need many more answers and I wish there was a way for those experts to share a little more information without naming names. No one wants to produce a liver shunt puppy or any puppy with a defect but it can happen no matter how hard you try to prevent it, whether you are a hobby breeder or show breeder.

BJh!!! My thoughts on that are similar also. I believe the exhibitor lines are showing more incidences of LS than the byb's and mills because the reponsible show breeders are more than likely contributing to the research. so the mafority of the pedigrees being studies are from the show breeder and not the pedigrees from the byb'rs,etc. Its not the mills and byb'rs doing the research. Most of them dont care, are ignorant and are only breeding to make a fast buck. And they would not report a shunt puppy and will not have them tested before a sale either. they will just keep on breeding a probabley never mention any of the possible health problems the Yorkies can have. I wouldnt say that one "famous show dog" is the cause of this problem either. Its more likely in alot of lines, not just one or two. Also, the vets were not as informed 20 years ago as they are today. I imagine that LS was just as prevelent then as it is now, just wasnt diagnosed.
The only thing we can keep doing is chipping away at the problem by testing and research. Hopefully an answer will be found soon.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Scottish Terrier Club of America in 2001 reported a carrier frequency rate for liver shunt at 4.7% based on its own health survey and termed the condition rare. A study on Irish Wolfhounds in the Netherlands identified several important carrier lines and was able to substantially reduce the incidence of liver shunt. Much of the other data I've read points to prolific studs and bitches that are carriers being major contributors to the rise in cases. My opinion at this point is that the problem lies mostly in show dog lines and is a lesser problem in the breed at large. These lines must be identified in the Yorkshire Terrier in order to get a handle on the problem. To place the blame on casual breeders is really 'passing the buck' as they are unlikely to have dogs from show lines though surely there are carriers among some of the dogs they breed, but these dogs would not be so prolific as their more esteemed counterparts. In the meantime, testing all breeding dogs and dogs showing clinical signs seems to be the reasonable way to proceed.

The thing is that most or all Yorkshire Terriers descended from show lines at some point. I bet if I looked back far enough in Lacy's pedigree, I'd find a champion somewhere....it might be 30 generations back but I bet one is there. Show lines fall into the wrong hands all the time...in fact, many show breeders will sell their dogs on full registration to anyone. I don't think we can say its a problem with one group of breeders in particular..it's a problem of the whole breed. I do believe that if you can find a true ethical breeder that you have less chance of getting a dog with LS, but there are many unethical breeders out there - show breeders, hobby breeders, BYB, and puppymills that aren't health screening and are knowingly producing shunts. It's something to be aware of and cautious with no matter what breeder you buy from

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

The thing is that most or all Yorkshire Terriers descended from show lines at some point. I bet if I looked back far enough in Lacy's pedigree, I'd find a champion somewhere....it might be 30 generations back but I bet one is there. Show lines fall into the wrong hands all the time...in fact, many show breeders will sell their dogs on full registration to anyone. I don't think we can say its a problem with one group of breeders in particular..it's a problem of the whole breed. I do believe that if you can find a true ethical breeder that you have less chance of getting a dog with LS, but there are many unethical breeders out there - show breeders, hobby breeders, BYB, and puppymills that aren't health screening and are knowingly producing shunts. It's something to be aware of and cautious with no matter what breeder you buy from

Yes, I agree with you that most all Yorshire Terriers descended from show lines. My point is that, among carriers, the most prolific dogs will contribute more to the problem. I would never say that open-pedigreed dogs do not have carriers in their history, only that in open- pedigreed dogs any health issue is less likely, statistically, to be replicated to the degree of a prolific stud or bitch. Open-pedigreed dogs do not get the genetic decked 'stacked' with either good or bad traits. I do realize this is a double-edged sword, but I'm talking about mathematical probabilities. I'm not advocating careless breeding, only pointing out that, for good or bad, line breeding sets traits in dogs more so than open breeding. At some point, it's all about probabilities. I have my own pet peeves about careless breeders but in this case, placing the blame for LS heavily on them is not accurate. They simply aren't setting traits and, with some exceptions, there dogs are not as prolific as top show dogs. I think it will take a concerted effort by veterinarians and show sponsors to turn the corner on this. A central database is essential. Even if an owner bought from a careless breeder, they still, for the most part, get good care for their dogs so good data could be compiled. If show sponsors required proof of testing among all show entrants, many less LS carriers would finish. These two efforts combined may stem the rise in cases but there is no magic bullet until a specific genetic marker is found and that may not happen.

[katelin]

I met with my vet today. Ruby had a sonogram and has at least 4 viable puppies, due around the middle of next month. The vet and I had a very long conversation about BAT, LS, these puppies, etc.

First, let me tell you how I am going to deal with my immediate problem. This decision was based on what I have read here, what I have read elsewhere, my vet's recommendations, a lot of tears and grief, and not a small amount of gin. We have already refunded for the LS puppy. The owners of the siblings have been told about the connection to an LS puppy. The sire is no longer being used for stud. Ruby will be spayed after this litter is born.

The puppies...that is a little more difficult. I will have each of them BAT tested prior to placement. Placement with be with a written disclosure and on limited registration only. If any of the puppies tests high for BA, I will hold that puppy back to see what happens. I can't euthanize a puppy if I'm not positive of the fact that it really has LS. This "wait and see" position will allow me to come to a decision that I can live with and what is in the best interests of the puppy.

Let me just add this: A word that isn't being used in this discussion is "inheritable." Everything is "genetic" (unless it is environmental) to some extent. But the ability to pass on a condition makes it inheritable, not just genetic. We are all afraid that LS is inheritable, linked in some way to a recessive gene. But none of the research has been able to prove or disprove this. I'm sure this is one of the main goals of the research.

Second, my vet did not recommend a BAT test on Ruby or the sire. That test would only show whether they themselves had LS or a liver problem. It would do nothing to show whether they could or have passed it on to a puppy. Besides neither is being used for breeding any more, they are asymptomatic, so it would serve no purpose.

Sorry for such a long post -- but I had a lot to say and it has been weighing quite heavily on me since we got this diagnosis. I feel somewhat better with a plan of action. If you have any other suggestions, let me know.