Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

"But at first glance I, as a buyer, would mostly choose from the small litter breeder than the large (with all other things being equal in the pup) just because I don't believe the one with so many running around could possibly be adequately caring for them.
I take mine daily (5 days/wk) for car rides, one day (alternating days) a week just one pup comes to work with me for more individualized time (queen/king for the day sort of thing), etc., etc. It'd be hard for one person with 10+ pups to do that consistently and frequently I think"
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kjcmsw -- Keep in mind there are always other factors that go into how much time is actually spent on puppy care & development. For instance, you mention taking one at a time to work with you. Many do not work outside of the home and have ALL day 24/7 to contribute to the care of their pups. Others are away a huge portion of the day for work, transportation, socialization, etc. Some have several human children that need to share in the available "care hours." One breeder may devote most of her waking time to puppy/dog care and socialization. Another may see it as a chore to be taken care of and move on to their other interests.

There just isn't one formula that will fit for all. Sometimes there is a family involved with the business so the man-hours are doubled, tripled, or more..... giving the pups even more human contact & care than what you might see in a one person, one litter at a time operation. It just is never as simple as saying it is better to go with a smaller output breeding program. I think that is what is so important about knowing the breeder. Once you really get to know them and see them in action (more than once), you can get a feel for the true contribution they make to the puppies' care. Reputations are built on well-socialized pups as well as those closely adhering to the standards. That is sort of spilling over to the other factors you already mentioned like lines & respectability.

True many other factors to consider which I would if in my example I didn't say "with all things being equal".
I don't think it matters; however, whether its a show dog or a pet a breeder (IMO) has an obligation to take their pups out and about, get them socialized to more than just what goes on inside, again it was always about all things being equal. And as a buyer, myself I would want my pet or show dog well attended to, not left in a kennel for most of the day because the breeder was so busy taking care of so many pups...that's all. One person/job or no job/respectability/etc/etc/everything I previously said...all things being equal is the key phrase--- the care that goes into puppies has surely got to be easier with (for example) the number of pups I previously mentioned to the number of pups I compared it to thus all the needed things to help in socialization of a puppy would --- at least on first glance to me --- be better with the lower numbers. That's all I was saying.
But your point is well taken and I understand what you are saying.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I guess I'm the one who doesn't understand, from other posts it sounds like you are against showing, and think of them as merely beauty contests, I thought that too, and I've only been trying to share what I've learned. It almost sounds like you believe that only pet owners should breed, and not people who have really devoted their lives to this. The truth is most of the yorkies produced are through pet owners, not people who've devoted their lives to breeding, and it seems we have a problem. Good breeders dogs do not wind up in rescues.

You didn't offend me but you didn't understand either. I'm against most anyone breeding, whether show or pet breeders. While I agree it is important to preserve the breed, I believe that can be done adequately with fewer numbers breeding. If I posted what I truly believe and know, it would offend many so, I choose not to for now. Dog breeding is a subject that I can not neatly sum up my opinions in a few short paragraphs. In my heart and mind, I know what makes up a good breeder and it has taken years for my opinion to evolve.

You're right, good breeders dogs rarely end up in rescue but stop and think about that statement. I just read from another thread link that 75% of the dogs in shelters are mix breeds, not pure bred dogs. So, that leaves 25% for pure bred dogs, I would expect of that 25%, for various reasons very few would come from good breeders. None of which has anything to do with "who" the dog came from but, more to do with the person buying the dog.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You didn't offend me but you didn't understand either. I'm against most anyone breeding, whether show or pet breeders. While I agree it is important to preserve the breed, I believe that can be done adequately with fewer numbers breeding. If I posted what I truly believe and know, it would offend many so, I choose not to for now. Dog breeding is a subject that I can not neatly sum up my opinions in a few short paragraphs. In my heart and mind, I know what makes up a good breeder and it has taken years for my opinion to evolve.

You're right, good breeders dogs rarely end up in rescue but stop and think about that statement. I just read from another thread link that 75% of the dogs in shelters are mix breeds, not pure bred dogs. So, that leaves 25% for pure bred dogs, I would expect of that 25%, for various reasons very few would come from good breeders. None of which has anything to do with "who" the dog came from but, more to do with the person buying the dog.

Well we more on the same page about this then I realized. Perhaps our differences are, "what makes a good breeder." I really don't believe that good breeders' dogs turn up in rescues. I think good breeders really take the pains to match the dog with pet owners, and I know many good breeders do not believe that the yorkie is right for many families. They refuse to sell, and we've all read threads here about that, and yet people back up the buyer and say the breeder must be bad. While most breeders "act" like they are selective in choosing a family, most really can't afford to be selective, they are breeding for money, so money will come into the equation. Another reason that dogs are in shelters is due to training problems, a breeder should thoroughly access the skills of the pet owner, and teach the basics of housebreaking to the owner before the puppy goes to its new home. Bottom line is most dogs end up in shelter because the dog wasn't a good match or buyers didn't know how to train, and they often go out and get another dog. In my opinion, breeders are always responsible for every dog that they produce, and so therefore they are always responsible if the dog ends up in shelters. Do I think buyers should share some responsibility too, yes, of course, that's my primary reason for being on Yorkietalk, I want to educate puppy buyers.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well we more on the same page about this then I realized. Perhaps our differences are, "what makes a good breeder." I really don't believe that good breeders' dogs turn up in rescues. I think good breeders really take the pains to match the dog with pet owners, and I know many good breeders do not believe that the yorkie is right for many families. They refuse to sell, and we've all read threads here about that, and yet people back up the buyer and say the breeder must be bad. While most breeders "act" like they are selective in choosing a family, most really can't afford to be selective, they are breeding for money, so money will come into the equation. Another reason that dogs are in shelters is due to training problems, a breeder should thoroughly access the skills of the pet owner, and teach the basics of housebreaking to the owner before the puppy goes to its new home. Bottom line is most dogs end up in shelter because the dog wasn't a good match or buyers didn't know how to train, and they often go out and get another dog. In my opinion, breeders are always responsible for every dog that they produce, and so therefore they are always responsible if the dog ends up in shelters. Do I think buyers should share some responsibility too, yes, of course, that's my primary reason for being on Yorkietalk, I want to educate puppy buyers.

You know Nancy I've read a lot of posts by new Yorkie members and there is a cluster of common questions.
Many of these questions could have been addressed verbally by the breeder, or better still if the breeder had included in the take home puppy package, a typed up version of some things like housebreaking, immunization protocols, etc etc. Basic grooming advice including links to some on line videos that show how to trim nails, ear health, teeth cleaning, brushing/combing your dog, recommendations for puppy shampoos and bathing tips.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

You know Nancy I've read a lot of posts by new Yorkie members and there is a cluster of common questions.
Many of these questions could have been addressed verbally by the breeder, or better still if the breeder had included in the take home puppy package, a typed up version of some things like housebreaking, immunization protocols, etc etc. Basic grooming advice including links to some on line videos that show how to trim nails, ear health, teeth cleaning, brushing/combing your dog, recommendations for puppy shampoos and bathing tips.

Joey's breeder talked about training even before she'd meet with me, she wanted to access what skills I had in the overall training department, as well as what type of discipline I believed in. She too, gave me a typewritten document with reminders on certain things we had talked about including vaccinations, skin care, anesthesia protocol, and the other things you mention. The main thing is that I knew I could call her anytime day or night, if I had a problem. This training thing is so important though, while yorkies are difficult to housebreak, and rehomed because of it, larger breeds are often easier to housebreak, but may have aggression problems, as they get older, so training should definitely be addressed by breeders.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You didn't offend me but you didn't understand either. I'm against most anyone breeding, whether show or pet breeders. While I agree it is important to preserve the breed, I believe that can be done adequately with fewer numbers breeding. If I posted what I truly believe and know, it would offend many so, I choose not to for now. Dog breeding is a subject that I can not neatly sum up my opinions in a few short paragraphs. In my heart and mind, I know what makes up a good breeder and it has taken years for my opinion to evolve.

You're right, good breeders dogs rarely end up in rescue but stop and think about that statement. I just read from another thread link that 75% of the dogs in shelters are mix breeds, not pure bred dogs. So, that leaves 25% for pure bred dogs, I would expect of that 25%, for various reasons very few would come from good breeders. None of which has anything to do with "who" the dog came from but, more to do with the person buying the dog.

and the 25% would be a guess at best, mostly based on what the dog looks like (many a mixed breed looks just like the one breed). I seriously doubt too many known pure breds come in with all their show ribbons, trophies, and papers. So without all the information on the dog there is no way to know whether its a pure bred (I doubt the average shelter is doing DNAing on 'em, which has its own inaccuracies). So the percentage is probably closer to 5% or less.
The 75% is probably the known figure which leaves the remaining 25% an guesstimate. I recently met someone with a yorkie/poodle mix and it looked just like a Yorkie (granted, a less than standard Yorkie, but a Yorkie look-alike all the same) I'm sure many of those dogs coming in are labeled a purebred.
So I'd support spay/neuter of all the mongrels out there, and price fix the purebreds. If the figures from the HSUS are accurate the mongrel population is where the problem lies. why price fix? because it's the breeders themselves that often contribute to the BYB - The "respectable" breeder disposes of dogs they didn't "improve" and still place exorbitant prices on them along with so many restrictions on the buyer, people just decide to breed their own. A BYB isn't born, they're made...often by the very people who claim they wish to exterminate them.
Animal rights activists would have you believe there is some disgrace in breeding animals. They would have you believe that every breeder of purebred dogs contributes significantly to the shelter population rather than the fault of the callousness of a society that would deem animals disposable. The root of the problem goes much deeper than the mongrel and mutt, it is our society's belief and value system (or lack thereof) that has resulted in animals being thrown away like garbage and grandma being dumped in a nursing home.

[yorkielady06]

"The root of the problem goes much deeper than the mongrel and mutt, it is our society's belief and value system (or lack thereof) that has resulted in animals being thrown away like garbage and grandma being dumped in a nursing home."
This in my opinion is the greatest danger to not only animals but to human kind.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I was hoping to understand a few things, bc I'm thrown for a bit of a loop at the moment.

So, there is a member here who is purporting to be a Show Breeder, however, on one of the breeder listing sites, I'm reading that this breeder states they 'breed some bitches who are out of standard', and breeds 5-10 litters a YEAR. It also appears that this member may be a member of the YTCA.

Does this seem off to only me? From what I've seen here at YT, the Exhibitors breed *maybe* 1 litter every 1-2 years, and only if there really is a need for it in their program.

What am I missing here? Or, is this someone who may be talking out of both sides of their mouth? Purporting one thing, while doing another...

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

We have several exhibitors around here that finsh 4 dogs a year. This can't be done without having quite a few litters to produce those show dogs. Breeders can't be judged by how many litters they produce each year but on how well the dogs are kept, how the puppies are placed, and if the goal of perserving and improving the breed is being sought.

Perfectly said..and perfectly true.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Joey's breeder talked about training even before she'd meet with me, she wanted to access what skills I had in the overall training department, as well as what type of discipline I believed in. She too, gave me a typewritten document with reminders on certain things we had talked about including vaccinations, skin care, anesthesia protocol, and the other things you mention. The main thing is that I knew I could call her anytime day or night, if I had a problem. This training thing is so important though, while yorkies are difficult to housebreak, and rehomed because of it, larger breeds are often easier to housebreak, but may have aggression problems, as they get older, so training should definitely be addressed by breeders.

This was my experience with my boys' breeder, and I believe it should be the same for every puppy purchaser.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

[tjdmom]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

"The root of the problem goes much deeper than the mongrel and mutt, it is our society's belief and value system (or lack thereof) that has resulted in animals being thrown away like garbage and grandma being dumped in a nursing home."
This in my opinion is the greatest danger to not only animals but to human kind.

Well said!

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

I agree. You are always so wise YorkieRose!

[Sugar's Mom]

[QUOTE=YorkieRose;3378304]Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.[/QUOTE]

I agree. You know the second yorkie I ever bought came from a 'voulme breeder' that dabbles in showing a little. She took me to her outside kennels and I was in awe. I never saw as many pretty yorkies in one place ever. her kennel was clean and well thought out with spaces for every thing. her dogs well cared for. She had kennel help but as we were leaving with our little dog tucked in my arms, I turned to my hubby and said, "we need a set up like that." if I were twenty years younger and just starting instead of quitting, I would have a set up like she had.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

Mardelin posted a thread today, that explains the different categories of breeder. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...-7-stages.html

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

I would consider someone that has consistently excelled at producing top winning dogs to be a Top Show breeder. Around here we have Caraneal, Stratford, Wolpert, Tiffanys, and Thimbletip. We have many up and coming breeders like Paddington, Empee, and Yorkchest as well. It's a lofty goal that few obtain.