Royal Canin Questions?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Britster

Since this is directed at one of my posts, I CAN read long paragraphs. I choose not to because they're obnoxious to read and hurt my eyes. I was taught back in elementary school to not have long run on sentences and long never ending paragraphs. FWIW, your posts in this thread were super easy to read and follow. I kindly asked you once, and since I've seen you nastily bring it up a few more times, that's all I'll say on that subject matter.

At this rate, RC or any other dog food company that comes on here probably thinks YT'ers are a bunch of nuts we're just a little passionate, I suppose?

Thanks for joining us Ashley and giving us your professional opinion. I don't agree with everything, simply as a pet consumer, but eh what do I know, I guess? I just go with my gut, what I feel comfortable with, and what my dog does best on.

I don't like a lot of the newer 'holistic' type companies either. I appreciate the research that RC has put into their foods. I'm not even 100% against by products but I do feel this formula change is a downgrade. JMO.

Originally Posted by MarkFromSea

The shorter paragraphs help my eyes also. There's plenty that I don't read because of the discomfort associated with longer paragraphs.

Advertising, marketing, value added product, "FREE"(LMAO), market share, product specialization, niche, holistic is an example...... it's in everything from politics to produce. Our best asset is knowledge and our ability to look something up and analyze/decipher it, find what best applies to our individual needs.

It's actually in YT's Rules and Guidelines that long paragraphs are *not* to be used bc they're unreadable for most members:

3. Please do not use overly large fonts or hard to read fonts/colors. Your account privileges may be restricted if this courtesy isn't followed. Except for emphasis, please do not use ALL CAPITAL LETTERS when posting, as this can symbolize shouting. Please, do not write your posts using 1 overly-long paragraph - it must be broken into paragraphs for readability.

[Wylie's Mom]

Just a comment on this thread -- ALL are welcome to express their opinion here, no matter their opinion of RC, whether positive or negative. If they think the company unscrupulous, so be it - if the next person thinks they're scrupulous, so be it. EVERYONE here has a right, according to our rules, to express exactly what they think of a *dog food* and/or the company who makes it and/or the person who chooses to come here and represent that company.

I feed premade raw and I just imagine how people would react if someone from Primal or Nature's Variety came here to represent - my gosh, they'd likely be pummeled into next week for daring to support raw! But I wouldn't take it personally, and I'd hope people here wouldn't take it personally if people don't agree with RC or it's representative.

Let the discussion be one.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by RoyalCaninCA

Hello Yorkie Parents !

My name is Ashley Harris and I am a nutritionist in Scientific Communications at Royal Canin Canada. Learn more about me here: Ashley Harris Pet Food Nutrition

I have noticed some posts with questions around Royal Canin formulas, ingredients or nutrients and wanted to offer my support to help answer your questions. I also provide plant tours and can help answer your questions about food quality, food safety and manufacturing processes.

Please feel free to post your questions below and I would be happy to answer them.

~Ashley

**At no time will I compare formulas from other companies because I do not have the knowledge of their formulas, manufacturing processes etc. to be able to accurately comment.

Does RC do plant tours for pet owners? Are there US locations where they're done?

[RoyalCaninCA]

Hi again everyone !

I first of all want to take the time to thank all the yorkie parents who have made their way to this forum! Whether it is to post a question, share their feedback or start a discussion, know all are welcome here.

As a nutritionist with experience in both the human and companion animal world, I respect many views and options on diet selection. This is the amazing reason we are all different! I say this all the time... If we were to take every person who has commented on this thread and feed them the same diet, what would happen? Well that diet may be good for one or two of us, but some of us may gain weight, some loose weight, some may feel more tired, some may require iron supplementation, some may experience dry or brittle hair....etc. This is the reason I respect owner's choices for feeding their pet. My only request, that you feed a food that makes your dog healthy and thrive All I can do is inform you about nutrition in general and RC formulas. I can't comment on other diets because I don't have their research/knowledge at my fingers.

My goal on here is to share RC's knowledge and understanding of the cat and dog. I can pull a lot of the information from text books, scientific literature, feeding trials and also our Walthams Research Center in the UK.

Thank you to everyone who has posted in the last... oh 18 hours or so (lol). There are a lot of questions people have, so bare with me as I try to make my way through answering them for you. I will try to quote as many posts as I can, but if I may have missed yours... sorry in advance. I tried to compile similar topics, so look to the title to find the one(s) that interest you.

Have a great day!
Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Hello again!

Let’s go into some detail about Brewers Rice and Corn for this post

Brewers Rice:
Brewers rice is essentially broken white rice. The more “visually” desirable whole white rice pieces are sifted from the broken white rice pieces to be used in the human food chain. The remaining broken pieces contain identical nutrition to the whole white rice pieces. This is used in the brewing industry or in the pet food industry.

Brewers rice primarily consists of starch; an energy providing nutrient that is also essential to the structure of kibble. It also is a source of protein. You can read more about the different types of rice here: The "Sticky" on Rice / Nutrition Corner / Your Pet's Nutrition / Home - RoyalCanin

Corn:
Corn is what I lovingly called the golden nugget of nutrients. It is packed full of beneficial nutrients, some many people don’t even realize! You can get highly digestible protein (including amino acids methionine and cysteine, which are important for coat health), omega 6 fatty acids (including linoleic acid, which is important for skin and coat health), fibre (insoluble fibres, this is what the outer shell or capsule is made of), minerals, vitamins and even antioxidants. Yes I said antioxidants!! Corn is an excellent source of lutein and zeaxanthin, two antioxidants important in full body antioxidant protection as well as notably in the eye. Check out this USDA website link to see all the beneficial nutrients Foods List. For some reason the direct links aren't working, but search for "corn dent" and "corn sweet" and select the yellow varieties.

Note that we consume sweet corn, whereas dent corn or field corn is the type used in pet food. Interestingly enough, the corn we use in pet food is actually more nutritious than the corn we consume (though it’s still packed full of nutrients). Why? Human corn is designed to be sweet (therefore it appeals to our sweet taste buds) whereas field corn is designed to be more nutritious, so less sugar but more usable starch for energy. I added a chart showing the two different types of corn side by side and the levels of nutrients (from the USDA website)

Why do we think corn doesn’t provide nutrients to us or our pets? We “see” it in our stool the next day right??? (I won’t go too much into poop… but know it’s probably one of my fav topics) Well we are lazy chewers, and actually what we “see” is just the capsule or outer shell, the insoluble fibre component, which makes its way completely through our bodies shows up in our stool. Think when we bite into a cob of corn. We usually end up spraying every person within 5 ft of us! That’s our teeth breaking through the outer capsule, making all the valuable nutrients mentioned above available for digestion and utilization by the body.

For pet food, we do the chewing for them through grinding. At RC we grind our corn to 0.8mm. The grinding increases the surface area to volume ratio, meaning that there is more area for our digestive enzymes to get in there and digest all the valuable nutrients. Even the insoluble fibre of the capsule is ground down. Remember that fibre but provides gastrointestinal support, including gut health, gut motility and promoting a beneficial bacteria population in the colon.

Hope this helps
Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Hi Nancy!

See the answers to your questions below:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So what’s changed, Is there some new research that shows they don’t need 28%? Or is it because when you use a lower quality protein you should actually reduce overall protein?

The minimum protein of the new YT formula is 26%. The recommended protein level for adult maintenance is a typical analysis of 18% (as per AAFCO). You’re absolutely right about the Yorkie hair. Did you know for the average dog about 30% of the daily protein intake goes to producing hair and skin cells? In a Yorkie, with hair that grows continuously, it’s super important to provide enough protein to maintain their luxurious coats, as well as the right amino acids, and other skin and coat supporting nutrients. The protein in the Yorkie formula provides highly digestible protein in an amount that has been researched to show that it meets their specific needs. A higher quality and digestibility of protein means that less protein is required to meet their needs. If the protein was lower in quality, we would actually need to increase the amount of protein to maintain the digested and utilized protein amounts. In addition, sulfur amino acids like cysteine and methionine provide the precursors for making keratin. Tyrosine and phenylalanine provide the precursors for pigments to make sure they maintain their rich coat colors. The skin barrier complex helps to make their delicate skin stronger.

From my last post remember that crude protein does not provide you information regarding the amino acid profile, the digestibility or the quality of the protein. Therefore the crude protein level on the package of Yorkie changed, but the actual nutrition and benefits provided to the pet remained the same. Ingredients are the vehicles to bring nutrients into the body. RC’s focus is the nutrient profile that is being provided to the pets we feed. Here is another analogy Think about watering plants using a watering can. The watering can is the vehicle for the water. If one day you used a different watering can, but the water it supplied to the plants was the same, is the change significant?

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You say you made this move to by-products because you make a lot of pet food and there wasn’t enough chicken meal. I understand that your company, in April of this year, purchased Iams, Eubanka and NATURA,

Royal Canin did not purchase any other pet food companies. Royal Canin is part of the MARS Petcare family, which simply means that we all live under the same parent umbrella. When MARS acquires other pet food companies, it does not change the way that Royal Canin does business, nor does it impact our quality control measures or our ingredient selection.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

and I understand that you need a lot more chicken meal, but that’s no excuse for using chicken byproducts as the main protein. If chicken byproducts are so good, why didn’t you use them before? This excuse that by-products are more expensive than muscle meat is so misleading. Anything “boneless, is more expensive, but compare gizzards to boneless breast meat and you’ll find that breast meat is three times as expensive. Also, by- products aren’t regulated in that you HAVE to put gizzards in them, a company can just use whatever is left after the human market takes what it wants, and yes since there is a market for gizzards and hearts and livers, I doubt if the by-products contain much of that because they don’t have to. Since beaks, feet and intestines aren’t used by the human market this is more likely what by products contain, and while I realize all those things contain protein, it doesn’t mean they are quality protein like muscle meat. The only way the consumer knows if the “crude protein” that is posted on the bag is “usable” protein is to check the ingredient list and see what type of meat has been used. I guess we as consumer should switch to one of the companies that are using “LOW” cost but high quality muscle meat.

By-products that you mentioned above, such as feet, are actually highly consumed in other populations, notably the Asian population. The North American population tends to consider muscle meat (such as the breasts, thighs etc.) to be the most desirable part of the chicken. But in other countries around the world, what we might consider un-desirable in NA is deemed as a delicacy and highly nutritious for them. One of our veterinarians here is originally from a little island near France where insects are considered a delicacy. He can’t believe that we don’t widely consume them here because they are packed full of protein and beneficial nutrients.

Ingredient names themselves are very misleading, no matter what ingredient you are talking about. This is the problem with trying to read pet food labels. The name of an ingredient tells you nothing about the quality, digestibility, or the nutrition the ingredient provides. Remember that meat is not the only source of protein. Any vegetarians or vegans out there can attest to that. Grains, vegetables , dairy etc. are all great sources of protein as well. The important things to consider are the amino acids that protein provides, how digestible it is and the quality. I know I repeat those often, but I think it is so commonly overlooked for determining how beneficial a protein source is for the dog.

Thanks for the questions!
Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Originally Posted by Bos

My pup was on RC from the time he was able to eat the kibble. I guess around the time the formula changed he started to develop diarrhea. This has been a painstaking few months to figure out that the RC was causing his diarrhea. He'd never had problems with RC or any sort of treat before. Now he's on Hills and doing great, no diarrhea. He did use RC Gastrointestinal until we could figure out what the problem was. He had no problem with that canned food. I guess RC just isn't for my pup because his tummy doesn't like it.

Hi @BOS,

Happy to hear you were able to find the nutrition solution that works best for your pup!

Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Catherine Lenox and I am very sad that RC snatched her away....happy for her, but sad for my pups. I have one pup who was her client who has lymphangectasia and I give her credit with being a huge part of Cookie's well being since Dec. 2011 when she was diagnosed.

Another great analogy. Perfect!

Hi @ladyjane!

I'll have to keep an eye out for her. But... they are such a good resource for RC, we can't help but snatch them up

I love to hear success stories too!! Keep sharing!

Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Hi everyone,

There was some discussion around ingredient changes and the communication to the owner. I wanted to take a moment and chat about that:

RC communicates on package if there is a significant change to the formula that would require a dietary transition. For example, if we adjusted the fibre level of a formula based on consumer and feeding trial feedback, we would want to communicate this change to the owner so they can do a gradual transition as a dramatic change could result in digestive upset (and that’s never what we want when we are improving a formula). If we are simply switching one ingredient for another ingredient that provides the same nutrients to the pet (ie one watering can for another watering can... see Crude Protein post for full analogy) the change will not affect the dog.

@ladyjane had some good point that reflects our nutrient philosophy:

Originally Posted by ladyjane

The question I have for you is this: Did you feed the food because RC marketed it based upon ingredients? Or did they market it as a food fit for the Yorkshire Terrier breed? Do you know enough about nutrition to know if this food is no longer fit for the Yorkshire Terrier breed? I don't feed the food but have looked at it...and don't recall them ever saying we don't use this or that in our foods. I think that is the main point here! I don't see how they were sneaky at all...but that's just me and as I said, I don't buy all the hoopla about ingredients...I look at companies that I believe are safer. I think they had to change for the reasons she stated and they did it after careful consideration. They have a reputation to maintain...I hardly doubt they did this will any any ill intent...or did something that is going to change the outcome if a person feeds that food. I would have no qualms about using that food if I was not already happy with what I feed my pups.

We know that ingredients might change down the road, but that the nutrition and the benefits to the pet can be maintained. In fact for RC, similar formulas in different countries can have identical nutrient profiles (determined by research and feeding trials at our campus in France) but have different ingredient decks depending on the ingredients available in that country the food is made in. We have 12 plants around the world (3 here in North America) and it is not possible for Canada to source the same ingredients that South Africa does... but, for example, the Yorkie formulas will provide the exact same benefits to the YT. I don't know about you, but for a nutritionist I find it completely fascinating and important... ok I'm a little bit of a nerd (where's the nerdy smiley icon when I need it..I guess this one will have to do ) Think of human diets. Here is a broad example, if you were looking to consume a specific amount of protein, fat, and carbohydrates, there are many ways to do it. Ie: 1) tufu with spanish rice and beans, 2) chicken and mashed potatoes, 3) strawberry smoothie with protein powder and 2% milk. These will all provide the same profile of macronutrients to the human who consumed them, but are all very different ingredients providing those nutrients

Thanks!
Ashley

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Sorry, I thought you had more of a vested interest in the forum. I am just surprised at the tossing around of the word unethical and also just astounded by all of this to be perfectly frank.

Nope, I think reading that list is somewhat important but do NOT think it is what a lot of people think it is. I believe it is about balance and what is good for my pups and I also believe that corn never killed a dog. I believe a lot of things that would astound you. I believe that people who are highly educated in this field know more than most of us....and I believe that companies who spend more money on feeding trials and hiring vet nutritionists are companies I would rather deal with....I don't care for the ones who use their money to market their goods by using slick words.

And, personally, I would never change my dogs' food immediately because I was mad at a company. You and I differ greatly...so that is obvious. You used the food for eight years and your pups did well on it....it's too bad you cannot believe that they would continue to do well. I do hope this change gives you 8 more uneventful years. I don't get a good feeling about it, but I hope I am wrong for you and your pups' sake.

What I find terrible here is NOT that you disagree, but the wording for something I believe is good for the community...but you are right you can go on and voice your opinions. I doubt it will feel better about all of this, but have at it Nancy.

Not sure what you mean by vested interest? While I'm a contributing member, I make no money from this forum through any type of sales or services or anything else.

I didn't change the food immediately because I was mad at the company. I changed it because I realized I was feeding them a crap food, that had been a good food. I am mad at the company because they didn't inform consumers of the big change on the bag. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, yes, they did well on a certain food for 8 years, RC changed the food, so I no longer could keep the boys on the same food. What about that don't you understand? Why would I believe that they would continue to do well on a very poor substitute? Just because name Royal Canin is on the bag?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Welcome to YT Ashley!
I am another RC avid user, and have used since 1999. I love what it does for my dogs and my puppies! I am a forever fan!
We are so fortunate that you've joined us!

What kind of formula are you using? The Royal Canin formula for Yorkshire Terriers changed significantly. Protein is no longer the first ingredient. Brewers rice is the first ingredient.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Not sure what you mean by vested interest? While I'm a contributing member, I make no money from this forum through any type of sales or services or anything else.

I didn't change the food immediately because I was mad at the company. I changed it because I realized I was feeding them a crap food, that had been a good food. I am mad at the company because they didn't inform consumers of the big change on the bag. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, yes, they did well on a certain food for 8 years, RC changed the food, so I no longer could keep the boys on the same food. What about that don't you understand? Why would I believe that they would continue to do well on a very poor substitute? Just because name Royal Canin is on the bag?

I made that comment because of a private message you once sent to me telling me how I should post. It was along those lines. I told you exactly what you told me...I don't get paid here. It's all good, Nancy. It IS true that we can all post our opinions. I post mine all of the time as you and others do. All part of a learning experience. I felt many were rude, but that is only my opinion. Lots think I am rude. It's all how you read things.

I am not going to have any further discourse on this as it only serves to distract from the important topic at hand and I am loving learning from our new member.

I especially loved the corn remarks made by her today....very clear picture and well written.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I made that comment because of a private message you once sent to me telling me how I should post. It was along those lines. I told you exactly what you told me...I don't get paid here. It's all good, Nancy. It IS true that we can all post our opinions. I post mine all of the time as you and others do. All part of a learning experience. I felt many were rude, but that is only my opinion. Lots think I am rude. It's all how you read things.

I am not going to have any further discourse on this as it only serves to distract from the important topic at hand and I am loving learning from our new member.

I especially loved the corn remarks made by her today....very clear picture and well written.

Alot of what you pointed out above, applies to many of us.....!
I am really enjoying reading her responses. I am waiting for her to advise on giving the Adult Mini versus the Yorkie Breed specific kibble! Since I dont know any other way to do it, I have copied/pasted her responses and put them in a folder for my own future use!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I made that comment because of a private message you once sent to me telling me how I should post. It was along those lines. I told you exactly what you told me...I don't get paid here. It's all good, Nancy. It IS true that we can all post our opinions. I post mine all of the time as you and others do. All part of a learning experience. I felt many were rude, but that is only my opinion. Lots think I am rude. It's all how you read things.

I am not going to have any further discourse on this as it only serves to distract from the important topic at hand and I am loving learning from our new member.

I especially loved the corn remarks made by her today....very clear picture and well written.

Yes, I believed it was better done in private than on the forum. I also told you that I received PM's almost daily asking me why you were so hard on people, those are gentle words. I defended you for years, and told those people who wrote to me, to write you, they didn't want to, and some were actually fearful. I always thought you were giving good information and I thought I should share with you what a lot of people were saying. I knew I would risk your wrath, if you didn't take it the right way, but I thought it was worth it. I don't like to gossip, I think I passed on good information to you. Truthfully, I do think you write much kinder now than you use to.

[RoyalCaninCA]

Originally Posted by Potter

I would like to do a plant tour. My Yorkie is currently eating prescription low fat RC and I would really like to see where the food is created for a peace of mind.

Hi @Potter and everyone!

I can't believe how many of you would love to visit our RC plants how exciting!

For everyone's info, RC owns and operates three manufacturing facilities in North America
1) Guelph, Ontario, Canada (dry facility, where I'm currently sitting right now)
2) Rolla, Missouri, US (dry facility)
3) North Sioux City, South Dakota, US (canned facility)

I might need to clarify my original post. One of my roles here is to provide plant and lab tours to veterinarians, breeders, rescues and pet store employees. What I was leaning towards with this was that my expertise in this area can help answer any questions you might have around manufacturing processes, quality and food safety.

I know many of you would love a plant tour... I always love showing off our state of the art plant (check out my profile pic with my 2 girls Ella and Marti in the front and our Guelph plant in the background). For Canada, regional reps currently schedule tours for their respective teams. If you are a Canadian breeder, feel free to contact your Royal Canin PRO representative and express your interest in a plant tour. For my US friends... sorry I'm not sure how plant tour requests are handled for them.

Currently we don't have consumer plant tours... but it's something that we are looking into

Thanks!
Ashley