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Old 06-20-2007, 08:47 PM   #46
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I agree as my dd is on prescription hills salmon and potato as well as my maltese and not too thrilled but i did the raw natures variety for 3 mos and did not seem to help with allergies for dd. I know vets do not have much knowledge about nutrition as I have read up on this as well. The holistic vet recommended it to us so we went with it but then our boy yorkie got pancreatitis and not really sure what caused it so it scared us - i still struggle though with kibble vs raw as everything i read says raw is the way to go as no grains. It is tough after 2 sick yorkies i am very fearful now of everything.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:04 PM   #47
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Every vet, dermatologist, internal medicine doctor and some holistic vets are against raw food but whole dog journal, animal wellness and dr. pitcairn say it is best except if a dog has a low immune system which can cause them to get sick due to bacteria. They have a smaller digestive tract than us so they can eat raw. They poop less as their bodies absorb all the nutrients. There is a lot that makes sense about raw and i did it for 3 months but the vets scared me about it so i stopped
YEAH I AM FINDING THAT THE VET TECHS I MENTIONED IT TO THIS WEEK WHILE SCHEDULING OUR APPTS WERE LIKE... NO I WOULDN'T DO RAW FOOD. I AM ALMOST TO THE POINT WHERE IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE VET SAYS THOUGH. READING THE LABELS ON THE RAW FOOD AND THE INGREDIENTS IS AMAZING! AND I FEEL I AM GETTING THE BEST ADVICE AND ALL OF THE MOST HELPFUL INFO IN THE WORLD WHEN TALKING TO ALL OF YOU THAT "OWN YORKIES" TOO.

MY LITTLE GIRL IS SLEEPING NOW, I TRIMMED HER LITTLE PAWS AND THE PADS OF HER FEET TONIGHT AND I ALSO GROUND DOWN HER NAILS (DREMEL TOOL WORKS THE BEST!!!) I GROOM THEM MYSELF... I WORKED IN A SALON FOR YEARS SO I AM COMFORTABLE WITH SCISSORS TO TRIM THEM.

THE LITTLE PADS OF HER FEET ARE SO WARM, I CAN'T HELP BUT KISS THE PADS OF THOSE LIL' FEET! ISN'T THAT PATHETIC.... HA!
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:09 PM   #48
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Shawn Messonnier, dvm is in Plano, Tx as well and i have read a lot of his books. He seems very knowledgeable - I would look him up as well - he is the author of allergy solution for dogs and many other Natural Vet Series

Paws & Claws Animal Hospital
2145 West Park Boulevard, Plano, TX 75075
http://www.petcarenaturally.com

(972) 867-8800
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE INFO.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:42 AM   #49
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The vast majority of vet's & doctors are NOT trained in nutrition...contrary to their thinking, they DON'T know everything.....you have to investigate these things on your own to be informed, don't count on them all the time for all your info.. .
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:18 PM   #50
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Default this is the food they were on that i am in the process of taking them off of.

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You said she has allergies, and the scooting could be from those. I really think you should switch her food. I know a lot of vets recommend foods made by Hill's and Purina but honestly none of those foods are any good, even the prescription ones. I'm starting vet school in the fall so I feel like it's okay to say that I think most vets don't know much about nutrition. These big companies give vets a lot of free products and donate a lot of money to the vet assocation and even do most of the nutrition teaching in school. But with all I have learned about dog foods, I would never feed my dog anything made by purina or hills or any other company like that (and by being a vet student I can get hills and purina foods 80% off). If you really want to feed kibble or canned, go with a premium brand like Wellness, Innova, Natural Balance, Canidae, Merrick, Nature's Variety, etch (there are other good ones out there). A step above that would be home cooking (but make sure you get all the nutrients your dog needs in it) I think the best thing is a raw diet. I feed Nature's Variety in venison and rabbit. Raw diets are grain free. A lot of dogs are allergic to corn, wheat, and other grains (esp. corn). A food with a lot of cornmeal in it is so bad for your dog. It's just a filler and cheap source of energy. I really think your dog is probably allergic to the food you're feeding her. I would really look into something higher quality.

SO....Even the prescription diets that we are made to believe they are the best of the best for the situation are not even good? this whole time i was led to believe it was awesome food for them. that's why i thought hey- if it's good then yes both will be on it. Not to mention that it is 60.00 a bag! i simply though thats cause it was "good" food. All of the Canidae foods are half the price of that. I wonder how much the Innova runs?

In the meantime after putting them on this "SPECIAL KIDNEY FUNCTION FOOD... my little dog is scooting like MAD from it and my other yorkie too started scooting a couple weeks ago. she is 11 lbs and samie (the one with the scooting problem) is 7 lbs. she is overweight and she needs to lose at least 1.5-2 lbs. her trachea issues would improve that's for sure. funny thing is is i have no idea how she gained weight? they both eat the same food yet one has lost weight and the other has gained. it is documented that she is OBESE. she needs to be closer to the 5- 5 1/2 lb range. the problem is she isn't as active as Sadie. she has no treats and i can't get her to lose. she has gained 1 lb a year the last 2 yrs. frustrating.... AND... my other yorkie Sadie... since on the (kidney formula) food- her skin was such a bright pink...and she has been itching and scratching like MAD. vet said it was probably allergies. i can't believe she did'nt ask what she was eating? instead she said to try benedryl. otherwise she said she could have skin allergies or an infection. well hmmm... lets think back to when things started changing with her too. well she started this when we put her on this kidney food. and can you believe the (old) vet told me was okay for her to eat this. a dog that has no kidney problems what so ever..... and she is fine to eat this food. no wonder no one has anything good to say about a vet giving nutrional advice as to what kinds of food to feed.

I still think her "crystals" may possibly be from not being on a good natural diet. the dog has horrible allergies, runny eyes and nose and sinus problems from that. she licks her paw constantly. both of my dogs lick their paws- until they are soaked. (i was told that was allergies) so i can't help but wonder? did samie start creating crystals b/c she was not on a good natural food? She was on Natural Choice by Nutro for 5 yrs. before we were told to switch to the purina vet pres diet nf. in FEb.

I have read that swithing food every 3 to 6 mos is best. i still haven't convinced my husband yet. he also is not a fan of the raw food.

I wonder if samies crystals would go away if she was on a good natural food? vet NEVER talked to me about diet and what to feed. In fact it wasn't until i found this web forum on yorkies that provided much knowledible information. I feel terrible that i never researched food and what is best to feed my girls.

My little Ssmie has been scooting out of control... this kidney formula food lists the first ingredient as CORN! 5 mos of eating this food........ I am so mad at our old vet. we have an appt with the new vet this saturday. i don't know if i should evn discuss food with her?? i mean i want her to do another urinalys on samie to see if she still has crystals forming but 90 % of me wants to give this canidae food a chance to work. i only bought a 5 lb bag.

i wonder if I can switch to Innova after this bag. I am really impressed with Innova as it contains no grains what so ever. and canidae does.

You should have seen Samie tonight. this was "day 2" with the switch process and omg! such an amazing difference in her it's crazy. she scooted only once and it was only after a bowel movement. not after eating. she looked a little uncomfortable after eating but much less than a few days ago. she is even a little yappy and playful again. like as if she is feeling better. :-)

she labsolutely loves the new food. my guess is she is still scooting but not as bad -however we ARE ONLY on day 2 of the switch to the new- so she is eating about 70 % of the old still and only 30 % of the new. Gosh can't imagine how much better she will be on the new food 100%.

I even got them the canned Innova to use for when i give them their med's or an occasional treat.

Poor things have been eating nothing but almost all CORN for 6 mos now. how sad...


check out the ingredients in this Purina Canine NF Kidney Function Formula

Purina Canine NF Kidney Function Formula helps decrease the production of nitrogenous waste products. Reduced levels of sodium helps compensate for the diseased kidney's inability to regulate this important mineral.

26999-3 Purina Canine NF Kidney Function - (24x12.5 oz can) $31.99
26999-1 Purina Canine NF Kidney Function - 20 lb $34.99
26999-2 Purina Canine NF Kidney Function - 37.5 lb $54.99


Technical Specs:

Clinical Considerations The role of dietary management in canine kidney conditions is to provide a proper balance of total nutrients while meeting the special dietary needs of the patient. Low phosphorus intake helps to protect against hyperphosphatemia and the associated renal damage. Restricted but high quality protein in the diet minimizes the intake of nonessential amino acids. This helps decrease the production of nitrogenous waste products. Reduced levels of sodium helps compensate for the diseased kidney's inability to regulate this important mineral. Increased omega-3 fatty acids may help reduce glomerular hypertension. Diet Characteristics Purina Veterinary Diets® NF Kidney Function® brand Canine Formulas provide complete and balanced nutrition for adult maintenance and have been formulated to achieve the following characteristics: Low phosphorus Reduced protein Added potassium Reduced sodium Source of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids Medical Indications Diets with these specific nutritional modifications have been recommended for dogs with the following conditions: Renal failure Hypertension Early stages of congestive heart failure Hepatic disease associated with encephalopathy NF Kidney Function® also features many of the characteristics that have been recommended for dogs with a history of the following condition: Calcium Oxalate Urolithiasis Medical Contraindications - Conditions that require high protein or phosphorus intake.


Ingredients (Dry)
Ground yellow corn, brewers rice, egg product, beef tallow preserved with mixed tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), sugar, dried whey, sodium caseinate, calcium carbonate, vegetable oil, animal digest, potassium citrate, potassium chloride, fish oil, choline chloride, salt, ferrous sulfate, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), zinc oxide, riboflavin supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, biotin, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.
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Old 06-22-2007, 07:03 AM   #51
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What kind of crystals does your baby produce??

I was reading that ingredient list, and many dogs are allergic to corn...That may be why they are itching.
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Old 06-22-2007, 07:15 AM   #52
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What kind of crystals does your baby produce??

I was reading that ingredient list, and many dogs are allergic to corn...That may be why they are itching.

i copied this from a new thread i posted on "oxalate crystals"

Has anyone discover oxalate crystals? the vet (in february) switched my little Samie to Purina Veterninary Prescription diet NF formula. The main ingredient is corn and she has had severe scooting going on. i think she is allergic to this food so we just switched her diet to the Canidae (all stages formula). she has shown improvement in only 3 days. I am wondering if anyone is familar with these crystals. The vet said she may be producing kidney stones but we have not done xrays or anything yet. part of the reason is my little one suffers trachea collapse at the vet. due to the fact that she gets so excited there and she pants and then her panting gets heavier and heavier. she has turned blue also. at home she does ok. her little tongue did turn blue last night when she drank water too fast and she started the coughing/honking. scared the heck out of me.

Appreciate any info anyone has on crystals. I don't know if this is major concern and if it was necessary to put her on the NF pres diet. alls i know is i could not bare to see her scoot anymore from discomfort so i switched her to the canidae. she is still eating 50% of the kidney nf food as we are still going through the phase out of the old and introducing the new. but she has shown a lot of improvement. i just hope i am not making a mistake by taking her off of the pres diet nf formula. she is only 7 lbs and she has had been scooting bad since we started the food in february.

i have read everyone on YT that "corn" is horrible for yorkies diet and the MAIN ingredient in this kidney function food is CORN. My other yorkie Sadie also recently developed skin irritation. her whole body was bright PINK.3

below are the readings from samies first and second urinalysis:

2/16/07- ph: 6.0 protein 100 spec gravity: 1.035 crystals: 3+ oxalate crystals. comments: amophoa debris- start NF diet.

4/14/07- glucose: neg bilirubin: small ketone: neg blood: neg ph: 8.0 protein: 30+ urobilinogen: normal nitrate: neg leukocytes: neg spec gravity: 1.030 crystals" 2+ oxalate crystals comments: amorphous debris

I have no idea what any of these values mean... does anyone else? are we in danger zone? is this serious? i am so clueless...

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Old 06-22-2007, 07:38 AM   #53
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I responded to your other thread
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Old 06-23-2007, 11:35 AM   #54
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Default Update On Samie After Her Appt Today With The New Vet...

Samie did well at the new vet. We were the first appt and called on our way so that we can be in and out with Samie's trachea problems. (We gave her 1/2 cc. of hydromet one hour before we left the house, as the vet instructed us to do so. She had her annual exam and vaccinations. The vet took a swab of the black tar-like discharge on her vagina and tested. And also swabbed her ears for an ear cythology. Samie does have a yeast infection and some bacteria was present. Vet wants to recheck in 2 wks. She gave us medication called: Enterderm (ointment) apply 2x's a day. Since the vet we saw today is off in 2 wks. we are going to hold off and recheck 3 wks. (She was really good with Samie and I also don't want to involve another vet to see her with her CT issues she suffers while there) she had no trachea issues today and the vet said her stress level was fine and she did well. (I cannot tell you how much better that made me feel. Whew..... back of hand across forehead! :-)

She also gave Samie medication for her ears because she has a infection. We are putting 5 drops of Tresaderm. I will put in her ears 2 x's a day and will recheck also in 3 wks.

The vet is going to a urinalysis and call me next wk with the results. If she sees something that she does not like and Samie is still scooting... she is going to take some xrays to see if she has bladder stones.

Samie is now on a different food. NO MORE CORN... I took her completely off of the Purina Vet Pres NF formula for kidney control as it was causing her to scoot immediately after eating and also after a bowel movement. I think she developed an allergic reaction in her digestive track. I started her on the Canidae 4 days ago and I also started mixing Innovo EVO Red meat formula. I am not sure if I will keep her on just the Cannidae or just the Innova. I talked to 2 people at the pet store who knew a lot about food and they said that eventualy switching her to a "grain free" food would be the best thing for her. I am leaning still towards keeping her on the Canidae and some canned food also if her urinalys comes back ok. If she still is showing crystals (which i have a bad feeling about that) then i will switch her to the innova only with canned also. If passing the crystals would mean more moisture in her diet i would want her strictly on a grain free food with more canned. 1/2 and 1/2.

Since Samie has been on this new food she has not scooted or shown any signs of digestion discomfort. her stools have been normal. no runny stools what so ever so she is taking the transition of foods very well.

I did have to express her anal glands last night. She was scooting really really bad and she was very full (just on the right side only)

the last time her anal glands were expressed was 6/6/07. the vet said she just needs to have them emptied every month. hopefully her new food will produce harder stools and she will not need them done so often.

I will keep you posted on her progress. :-) thanks to all of you for providing such very important information. if it wasn't for your comments... she would still have been on the NF corn formula. that was making her SOOOO miserable. it was very sad. she seems very very happy again only after a few days :-) I hope the vet does not make me give her a diet with corn if she doesn't like the results of the urinalysis. I told the vet what we are feeding and she said she will check into it. When i talked a couple times with her about food and what I have been reading on the internet all she said was "well you will read all sorts of stuff online) like as if she was telling me that what I was finding online would not be good info or something. Well it doesn't come as a surpise b/c many of you have told me that unfortunately vets do not have much of a knowlege on nutrition and what food is best for our babies.

* both of my girls are now drinking distilled water too. We have very hard water here. I never would have even thought about changing their water to distilled so thank you for that info also! :-)

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we will be in touch...
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:00 PM   #55
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i am so glad you found a good vet that you are happy with. i'm glad too that your babies are doing well.
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Old 06-23-2007, 03:13 PM   #56
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great news keep us posted on the urine sample
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:19 PM   #57
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I'm glad you're happy with your new vet. I do have one concern with you using the Innova Evo. Since it is a grain free DRY food, it is very high in protein. High protein levels can be bad for dogs with kidney problems. If you feed a grain free wet food or raw food, there is a lot of moisture in the food so the protein level isn't as high as in the dry food. You might want to ask your vet about high protein levels with her kidney problems. I think you are definitely on the right track though with trying a high quality natural diet.
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Old 06-24-2007, 04:52 AM   #58
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I am so happy you came upon thie Vet and a swab was finally done on this baby. Can you imagine having a yeast infection and it just dragging on? Sounds miserable. You sound like a very good Mom and I commend you for keeping up the search to help your baby.
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Old 06-24-2007, 08:03 AM   #59
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Oh, I forgot to tell you to monitor her ph...Buy some ph strips at the pharmacy and test her urine, so that you know if you're doing okay, or if you need to change anything in her diet. Good luck!
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Old 06-24-2007, 04:10 PM   #60
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I'm glad you're happy with your new vet. I do have one concern with you using the Innova Evo. Since it is a grain free DRY food, it is very high in protein. High protein levels can be bad for dogs with kidney problems. If you feed a grain free wet food or raw food, there is a lot of moisture in the food so the protein level isn't as high as in the dry food. You might want to ask your vet about high protein levels with her kidney problems. I think you are definitely on the right track though with trying a high quality natural diet.
Yes, I am thinking she is getting too much protein. If I can locate the sodium content on the canidae. i will just keep her on that. Even though it's not grain free. it is almost half the amount of protein. she also is overweight. she is only 7 lbs but she needs to lose at least 1 to 1.5 lbs and i think she would feel better. I appreciate you writing because i really didn't know what to do for my girls. they both were having bad reactions to the food (that i didn't pick up on since February) i had no idea what was going on and i was so worried. I worried sick over my little Samie (7 lbs)

She became so sick on this food that i had to immediately take her off of it and needed to switch her to something else. I couldn't go w/o feeding them so i researched as much as i could and got her the canidae. then the people at pet supplies plus talked me into feeding her a "grain free" food. so with her only being on 20% canidae into day 3. I had to remove the old food and not go with the transition since her allergic reaction in her digestive tract got so bad. yesterday and today I was feeding them the canidae and a little amount of the innova red meat formula. And i know it sounds crazy.. but I really don't know what i am doing and i am still researching and relying on my TY friends at this point. they have been so helpful. so i got so confused. she has only had small amount of the innova red meat mixed with the canidae but since,, yes... the protein amount is so high 42.42 % as compared to canidae 24%. SHe is also feeling a little crummy today. so i think i need to stop the innova red meat. i seriously think it is too much for her.

i am trying to match the ingredients in the kidney formula food but minus the main ingredient "CORN" that was so bad for my girls. who knew? i trusted my (old) vet. we just found a new vet this past w/end. the vet said she should be okay if she doesn't have any lose stools or anthing. she is taking the food transition fine. but i think today it caught up with her. so i am still researching for the best thing for her. please please if you have any other further information i appreciate it. I am alone on this one and reseaching the only way i know how. all i know is both of my girls are still doing WAY BETTER better being off of the kidney formula food made with corn. Oh gosh! it was bad.

the purina pres diet contains: crude protein: 12% crude fat: 13% crude fiber" 2.0% moisture: 12% sodium: .30 % phosp- 0.35 %

so i need to find something close as all possible to this formula. I have been researching and taking notes and having a tough time.
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