Death from a Virus

[dwerten]

Veterinary Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs)

Veterinary Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs)
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs) are used to control the pain and inflammation associated with osteoarthritis. Inflammation - the body’s response to irritation or injury - is characterized by redness, warmth, swelling, and pain. NSAIDs work by blocking the production of prostaglandins, the body chemicals that cause inflammation.

In veterinary medicine approved veterinary NSAIDs are used to control the pain of osteoarthritis in dogs and some veterinary NSAIDs are approved for the control of postoperative pain in dogs. However, there are risks and benefits with all commonly prescribed veterinary drugs, including NSAIDs. Veterinarians and pet owners should be aware of the following facts:

Oral NSAIDs are approved for use in dogs only.
All dogs should undergo a thorough history and physical examination before beginning NSAID therapy.Appropriate blood/urine tests should be performed to establish baseline data prior to, and periodically during, administration of any NSAID.

Veterinary NSAIDS may be associated with gastrointestinal ulcers/perforations, liver, and kidney toxicity.

Use with other anti-inflammatory drugs, such as other NSAIDs and corticosteroids, should be avoided.

Patients at greatest risk for kidney problems are those that are dehydrated, are on diuretic treatment, or have pre-existing kidney, heart, and/or liver problems.

NSAIDs can cause stomach or intestinal bleeding.

Risks associated with NSAIDs are detailed on the package inserts and Client Information Sheets.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by dogbert

I wonder if this is what happened to my last dog "Millie". Some of this sounds very familier.

so sorry what happened to your little one?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kalina82

there are over 70 MILLION dogs in the USA. once again i ask you to look at the big picture here and not the unprofessional, non peer reviewed websites on the internet. that's all i'm going to say on this matter.

I totally agree! All of the posts advising people not to listen to their vets about prescribed medications frightens me. ALL medications have side effects....that has been long established, whether for humans or animals. As you said, there are SO many dogs and so few people (percentage wise) whose pups have actually suffered from the side effects of the meds that were prescribed. Just because one or even ten dogs had side effects does not mean that a medication is bad or dangerous for all dogs.

Sometimes certain medications need to be given and the majority of vets look at the entire history of the pup and whether or not a certain medication is contraindicated. It is always good for a pet owner to be aware of medications and read about the pros and cons of giving them....and then, consult with their vet.

I have seen people suggest that a person give Tramadol to a dog that was prescribed Rimadyl. These are two different medications...often Rimadyl is indicated because the need to reduce inflammation is there...which will in turn help with pain. Tramadol only works for pain.

It does not sound like this pup died from an NSAID...surely something was going on. We don't have enough information to assume anything.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I totally agree! All of the posts advising people not to listen to their vets about prescribed medications frightens me. ALL medications have side effects....that has been long established, whether for humans or animals. As you said, there are SO many dogs and so few people (percentage wise) whose pups have actually suffered from the side effects of the meds that were prescribed. Just because one or even ten dogs had side effects does not mean that a medication is bad or dangerous for all dogs.

Sometimes certain medications need to be given and the majority of vets look at the entire history of the pup and whether or not a certain medication is contraindicated. It is always good for a pet owner to be aware of medications and read about the pros and cons of giving them....and then, consult with their vet.

I have seen people suggest that a person give Tramadol to a dog that was prescribed Rimadyl. These are two different medications...often Rimadyl is indicated because the need to reduce inflammation is there...which will in turn help with pain. Tramadol only works for pain.

It does not sound like this pup died from an NSAID...surely something was going on. We don't have enough information to assume anything.

hopefully op will come back and give more info so we can know

so you think it is safe after what you have read to give dogs with liver disease nsaids? As Kellie has stated in other posts it is safe yet vets and specialists who know about liver disease would never prescribe an nsaid to a liver disease dog.

Are you aware most vets are not familiar with liver disease in maltese and yorkie breed as is stated over and over on here?

Are you aware most vets do not run blood panels before putting dogs under anesthesia for a spay or neuter? Neither of mine had blood panels 6 years ago prior to their spay or neuter and I had no clue about all this stuff 6 years ago and that was two different vets as dex was neutered by one vet and Dee Dee was spay by another. I doubt mine are the only dogs this has happened to.

I say educate yourself about nsaids and dogs with liver disease should NOT ever have nsaids.

Do you also think nsaids should be given with a snack or mid meal? See below it can perforate a bowel so why would you give with a snack and not mid meal? Why would you not protect the intestines as best you can when giving this drug knowing it can cause ulcers, internal bleeding, and perforation - why would you tell someone a snack or on empty stomach is ok and not mid meal as Kellie has stated it is ok on empty stomach or with a snack which i strongly disagree with?

Sorry not warning people of this drug and its potential harm especially in dogs with liver disease which runs rampant in this breed is deadly. Most vets do not give out the pamphlet nor instruct owners. I was given rimadyl, deramaxx, and metacam to my dogs all three over the course of 6 years with NO INSTRUCTION or WARNING. All being from 3 different vets for those meds. I had to find the info on the internet from FDA after Jean Dodds emailed NO NSAIDS after vet gave dd metacam on empty stomach while on steroids with mvd. I doubt this is the only vet in the country doing this.

In a healthy dog with no issues then you can make that choice but if you have a dog with health issues then tramadol is the better drug even without anti-inflammatory.

Tramadol and nsaids can be mixed to add extra relief in a healthy dog but there is still risk

Nsaids and steroids can NEVER be mixed as both affect the lining of stomach and it can do a double whamy on that dog like it did mine.

Nsaids are NOT to be used in liver disease dogs and that should always be questioned.

Do you really think every vet knows everything about every drug and informs the pet owners when giving the drug? Or do they trust the pharmaceutical companies and just prescribe the drugs?

[dwerten]

No one is telling anyone not to LISTEN to their vets - I am telling them to QUESTION their vets - there is a difference and nothing wrong with asking questions and understanding as maybe the vet forgot like the vet forgot my dd had hives on simplicef and almost gave her a convenia shot which would have been a problem. They make mistakes and are not always on their game 100% of the time. My mom is type 2 diabetes and when she broke her wrist they came in with a shot to give her and she said you remember I am type 2 diabetes and they said OMG good thing you said something this shot could have killed you. It happens to humans and dogs.

I tend to question and research and understand for myself and it has saved my dogs going through unnecessary testing like scintigraphy. I never think it is a bad thing to educate yourself and understand what is going on. I just cannot 100% trust one human being with my health nor my pets health as they are only human and can only know so much so I feel it is a team effort especially with a sick dog.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by dwerten

so you think it is safe after what you have read to give dogs with liver disease nsaids? As Kellie has stated in other posts it is safe yet vets and specialists who know about liver disease would never prescribe an nsaid to a liver disease dog.

Do you also think nsaids should be given with a snack or mid meal? See below it can perforate a bowel so why would you give with a snack and not mid meal? Why would you not protect the intestines as best you can when giving this drug knowing it can cause ulcers, internal bleeding, and perforation - why would you tell someone a snack or on empty stomach is ok and not mid meal as Kellie has stated it is ok on empty stomach or with a snack which i strongly disagree with?

First off, i don't go around telling everyone its ok for them to give their liver compromised dog NSAIDs. In that one case i said to listen to the vet, and its not unheard of that a vet gave NSAIDs after surgery. i don't know why you keep bringing this up. its ridiculous. get over it.

Secondly, I said that you do not have to give the pill mid meal like you described (feed half, give pill, fed other half). It is suggested to give the meds with food but not required as it can cause upset stomach in some dogs (just like it can with people). I said its ok to give the pill with a meal or snack, meaning as long as your giving it with food its ok (before, during, after, doesn't matter). And (i can't believe i have to clearly state this for you) a snack is not like one treat and the pill, or a dab of cream cheese and the pill. a snack is a portion of food that is smaller then a full meal. It is a light meal or food eaten between meals...

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kalina82

First off, i don't go around telling everyone its ok for them to give their liver compromised dog NSAIDs. In that one case i said to listen to the vet, and its not unheard of that a vet gave NSAIDs after surgery. i don't know why you keep bringing this up. its ridiculous. get over it.

Secondly, I said that you do not have to give the pill mid meal like you described (feed half, give pill, fed other half). It is suggested to give the meds with food but not required as it can cause upset stomach in some dogs (just like it can with people). I said its ok to give the pill with a meal or snack, meaning as long as your giving it with food its ok (before, during, after, doesn't matter). And (i can't believe i have to clearly state this for you) a snack is not like one treat and the pill, or a dab of cream cheese and the pill. a snack is a portion of food that is smaller then a full meal. It is a light meal or food eaten between meals...

snack to some people can mean TREAT Kellie and most people give their dogs meals or treats.

I told this person to question the vet you said no big deal your dog takes nsaids and has mvd and questioning vet was not of concern to you. Crystal even said she would question it as well.

Mid meal is safest the more food the better - read the part ulcers, perforation, intestinal bleeding. This is the reason you give mid meal as yes if the dog gets an upset stomach they can get any of the above. You also stated to me it was safe to even give on empty stomach which is very dangerous.

It is not safe to give liver disease dogs nsaids so I will ALWAYS tell the pet owner to question this drug when their dog has liver issues.

All it takes is for you to tell one owner and someone else reads it and thinks it is ok

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by dwerten

not uncommon these dogs died of nsaids and why I am not a fan of them

NSAIDs Memorials/Survivors

can you give us more information on the pain med used and the surgery?

so sorry your friend went through this

None of what the OP has stated would lead anyone to believe it was NSAID's (antiinflammatory) related. NSAID's are not commonly used as the primary med for post-op pain relief.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

None of what the OP has stated would lead anyone to believe it was NSAID's (antiinflammatory) related. NSAID's are not commonly used as the primary med for post-op pain relief.

but they are what is commonly used after surgery

What was your dog prescribed after spay or neuter? Mine were prescribed rimadyl and the other dermamaxx which are nsaids.

Kellie worked for an orthopedic and she can tell you that is exactly what they prescribe after surgeries.

[Yorkie_Bear]

I honestly don't know the whole story...It was a stomach virus. That's all I really know.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Yorkie_Bear

The yorkie had some surery, and was given some medication to ease the pain. The vet gave him some medication and he died in hi sleep from pain.

so the dog did not have surgery as stated here?

Was the stomach virus before or after the surgery?

Did the vet tell your friend the dog died of a stomach virus?

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by dwerten

snack to some people can mean TREAT Kellie and most people give their dogs meals or treats.

i cannot control how people interpret my words.

I told this person to question the vet you said no big deal your dog takes nsaids and has mvd and questioning vet was not of concern to you. Crystal even said she would question it as well.

actually what i said was: "honestly i'm not concerned about the metacam. Morgan has MVD and i give it to her without problems and i know plenty of other dogs that have used metacam as well." Since you want to nit pick everything i say i will clarify. 1) i was not concerned about the metacam use in that particular case because of all the other things that were going on with the dog. 2) Morgan has asymptomatic MVD and I have given her Metacam. nothing else to add to that. yes she has MVD and yes i've given her metacam in the past with no problems. 3) Yes i know of other cases where dogs were given NSAIDs (usually metacam) when they had liver issues. These cases also had other problems that were more pressing and needed the anti-inflammatory.

Mid meal is safest the more food the better - read the part ulcers, perforation, intestinal bleeding. This is the reason you give mid meal as yes if the dog gets an upset stomach they can get any of the above. You also stated to me it was safe to even give on empty stomach which is very dangerous.

do you eat a full meal every time you take advil, motrin or aleve? those are NSAIDs as well.

You cannot make a general statement saying it is "very dangerous" to take the drug on an empty stomach, because it is not. Sure you may have only hard about the horrible cases but that doesn't mean there aren't millions of other cases that did wonderfully on the drug this way.

Metacam and Rimadyl both state that they do not require food to be given with the medication. Some dogs can take it on an empty stomach and have no problems what so ever no matter how long they take it. Some dogs can get an upset stomach this way so it is usually recommended to give it with food just in case to prevent this (or at least that's what i always told owners. just like prescription human meds, they can cause upset stomach so its best to give with food). Some dogs can also have more serious adverse reactions to it (just like with any drug) no matter when you give the drug and with what.

everyone needs to remember that there are at least 70 million dogs in the US alone - each dog is an individual and has its very own individual problems. You cannot generalize problems. Each and every case is different. what happens to one dog may not happen to another. every dog reacts differently, even if they have similar issues. When an owner is concerned its best to ask the vet any questions you may have, even if you think its a minor concern. do your own research, and then bring those questions to a professional.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kalina82

i cannot control how people interpret my words.

actually what i said was: "honestly i'm not concerned about the metacam. Morgan has MVD and i give it to her without problems and i know plenty of other dogs that have used metacam as well." Since you want to nit pick everything i say i will clarify. 1) i was not concerned about the metacam use in that particular case because of all the other things that were going on with the dog. 2) Morgan has asymptomatic MVD and I have given her Metacam. nothing else to add to that. yes she has MVD and yes i've given her metacam in the past with no problems. 3) Yes i know of other cases where dogs were given NSAIDs (usually metacam) when they had liver issues. These cases also had other problems that were more pressing and needed the anti-inflammatory.

do you eat a full meal every time you take advil, motrin or aleve? those are NSAIDs as well.

You cannot make a general statement saying it is "very dangerous" to take the drug on an empty stomach, because it is not. Sure you may have only hard about the horrible cases but that doesn't mean there aren't millions of other cases that did wonderfully on the drug this way.

Metacam and Rimadyl both state that they do not require food to be given with the medication. Some dogs can take it on an empty stomach and have no problems what so ever no matter how long they take it. Some dogs can get an upset stomach this way so it is usually recommended to give it with food just in case to prevent this (or at least that's what i always told owners. just like prescription human meds, they can cause upset stomach so its best to give with food). Some dogs can also have more serious adverse reactions to it (just like with any drug) no matter when you give the drug and with what.

everyone needs to remember that there are at least 70 million dogs in the US alone - each dog is an individual and has its very own individual problems. You cannot generalize problems. Each and every case is different. what happens to one dog may not happen to another. every dog reacts differently, even if they have similar issues. When an owner is concerned its best to ask the vet any questions you may have, even if you think its a minor concern. do your own research, and then bring those questions to a professional.

well some people can take that as give the dog the pill with a treat and they will be ok

This particular dog had liver shunt surgery much more dangerous than a asymptomatic mvd dog.

lol you are not the only one on here that gets their words nit picked lol

actually I do take nsaids with a meal never on empty stomach or with a snack and I weigh alot more than 6lbs so for a smaller dog I think the risk is greater and I do not have liver disease or I would not take with liver disease.

So after reading intestinal bleeding, ulcers, and perforation of bowel you still feel safe to give on empty stomach? I just want to be clear in what you are suggesting is ok?

Where did you read on the instructions that it says it is ok to give on empty stomach?

Advice to Dog Owners Whose Pets Take NSAIDs

Treating Pain in Your Dog

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM050394.pdf

oh and I did call to report the reaction my dog had and all they say is you should take your dog in for blood work immediately to make sure liver and kidneys are functioning properly.

Most Vaccine and medication reactions are not reported sadly as I do not believe the vet has to report it do they? Are they really telling the owner - hey the drug i gave your dog caused the kidneys to fail so your dog died of renal failure? Or do they say I am so sorry your dog has renal failure? I think the latter of the two is probably the case and most pet owners are not educated to know the difference unless they stumble across it on the internet trying to find out why their two year old dog died of renal failure

Also due to intestinal upset with nsaids specialists also advise against nsaids in dogs with IBD as well.

[ladyjane]

Not exactly why we are on this topic yet again; but I just want to say this: everything in medicine whether vet or human is not black or white. What
happens to one dog does not mean it will happen in another. Because it is
not recommended that a certain medication not be given with certain other
meds or with certain conditions does not mean it should never be given. A
lot of different things are weighed very carefully. Pharmacology is a very
complicated field. I cannot count right now how many pups I have had in
my home that took NSAIDS for various conditions....there have been many.
I have never had a problem. I have never been given an NSAID for pain
after surgery unless an anti inflammatory was needed.

I also want to say this yet again: every single medication has risks to it.....
there is not one I can name that does not have a long list of side effects.
but that does not mean it cannot be given safely. Yes, some will experience the
side effects....that is unavoidable; but, sometimes medications are necessary.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by dwerten

but they are what is commonly used after surgery [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Donna/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

What was your dog prescribed after spay or neuter? Mine were prescribed rimadyl and the other dermamaxx which are nsaids.

Kellie worked for an orthopedic and she can tell you that is exactly what they prescribe after surgeries.

Again Dwerten, it's not the main PAIN medication used after surgeries.

NSAIDS are anti-inflammatories. NSAIDs work on a chemical level. They block the effects of special enzymes -- specifically Cox-1 and Cox-2 enzymes. These enzymes play a key role in making prostaglandins. By blocking the Cox enzymes, NSAIDs stop your body from making as many prostaglandins. This means less swelling and less pain. This is a good thing after orthopedic surgery.


But depending on the type of surgery, other pain meds are more commonly prescribed. Tramadol being one. These pain medications work by changing the perception of pain. I'm sure everyone here has given their dog something OTHER than an NSAID for pain. So to jump on this thread, which is very sad, and turn it into an "anti-NSAID" campaign was just so wrong, IMO. Perhaps the mods here could split this topic into two distinct threads.

ALL medications have the potential for side effects. For that matter so do ALL alternative treatments, too. Glucosamine, for example, also has reported side effects of GI disturbances and allergic reactions. It's just that traditional medications have been more thoroughly studied (in this country) and their manufacture is standardized. Alternative meds don't have any regulatory oversight, so at this time the quality of one brand may not match the quality of another. As for studies, yes, there are more and more studies being done in to alternative treatments. But until the studies are larger and the results are REPEATABLE, it's really unfair to say that giving them is the ONLY way to go.

Everyone should be aware of ALL the treatment options available. That includes the potential risks versus the potential benefits of any medication, supplement or treatment. And, IMO, the best person to help you wade through all of that is your vet. If you truly believe that your vet is only pushing medications or a treatment because they are A) lazy B)ignorant C) getting a kick back from the pharmaceutical companies or D) it's the "flavor of the week" than perhaps you should find a new vet.

Now, I want to apologize to the OP. I'm sorry this thread got hijacked. I'm very sorry your friend lost her dog. No matter what the circumstances, it's never easy. You are a good friend to her to realize that she is hurting and this isn't "just a dog" to her. I'm sure just being there and listening to her will be a big comfort to her