Death from a Virus

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Not exactly why we are on this topic yet again; but I just want to say this: everything in medicine whether vet or human is not black or white. What
happens to one dog does not mean it will happen in another. Because it is
not recommended that a certain medication not be given with certain other
meds or with certain conditions does not mean it should never be given. A
lot of different things are weighed very carefully. Pharmacology is a very
complicated field. I cannot count right now how many pups I have had in
my home that took NSAIDS for various conditions....there have been many.
I have never had a problem. I have never been given an NSAID for pain
after surgery unless an anti inflammatory was needed.

I also want to say this yet again: every single medication has risks to it.....
there is not one I can name that does not have a long list of side effects.
but that does not mean it cannot be given safely. Yes, some will experience the
side effects....that is unavoidable; but, sometimes medications are necessary.

Totally Agree with this But pet owners should be informed by the professionals so they can make the choice for themselves and their pets not just handed a bottle with no instruction on what to watch for as far as side effects nor how to give with food.

LJ did you give nsaids to your dogs on empty stomachs or to dogs with known liver disease or to dogs on steroids?

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Again Dwerten, it's not the main PAIN medication used after surgeries.

NSAIDS are anti-inflammatories. NSAIDs work on a chemical level. They block the effects of special enzymes -- specifically Cox-1 and Cox-2 enzymes. These enzymes play a key role in making prostaglandins. By blocking the Cox enzymes, NSAIDs stop your body from making as many prostaglandins. This means less swelling and less pain. This is a good thing after orthopedic surgery.


But depending on the type of surgery, other pain meds are more commonly prescribed. Tramadol being one. These pain medications work by changing the perception of pain. I'm sure everyone here has given their dog something OTHER than an NSAID for pain. So to jump on this thread, which is very sad, and turn it into an "anti-NSAID" campaign was just so wrong, IMO. Perhaps the mods here could split this topic into two distinct threads.

ALL medications have the potential for side effects. For that matter so do ALL alternative treatments, too. Glucosamine, for example, also has reported side effects of GI disturbances and allergic reactions. It's just that traditional medications have been more thoroughly studied (in this country) and their manufacture is standardized. Alternative meds don't have any regulatory oversight, so at this time the quality of one brand may not match the quality of another. As for studies, yes, there are more and more studies being done in to alternative treatments. But until the studies are larger and the results are REPEATABLE, it's really unfair to say that giving them is the ONLY way to go.

Everyone should be aware of ALL the treatment options available. That includes the potential risks versus the potential benefits of any medication, supplement or treatment. And, IMO, the best person to help you wade through all of that is your vet. If you truly believe that your vet is only pushing medications or a treatment because they are A) lazy B)ignorant C) getting a kick back from the pharmaceutical companies or D) it's the "flavor of the week" than perhaps you should find a new vet.

Now, I want to apologize to the OP. I'm sorry this thread got hijacked. I'm very sorry your friend lost her dog. No matter what the circumstances, it's never easy. You are a good friend to her to realize that she is hurting and this isn't "just a dog" to her. I'm sure just being there and listening to her will be a big comfort to her

but it is sadly and up to owner to ask for tramadol sadly

Kellie can tell you as she worked for an orthopedic and LJ can tell you as well as she deals with fosters - Nsaids are the main drug given as they have an anti-inflammatory agent in it where as tramadol does not.

I will have crystal start a poll on this because I believe that rimadyl, deramaxx and metacam are the choice for most vets following surgeries due to anti-inflammatory agent. I do not know how to do the polls sorry or i would start myself as we can ask what was your dog prescribed after spay or neuter for pain medication and that should be very telling just like the poll on vaccinating annually is very telling on here.

Now many specialists like the board certified dentist will not use nsaids as he said it is not safe so when demi had 27 teeth extracted he gave her torbutrol not an nsaid as i questioned it and mainly why i chose him as he was against nsaids saying they are not safe. He gave dee dee tramadol as she only had 5 teeth extractions.

But this thread could be about nsaids causing a death as the op stated after surgery given pain meds then died. So i think this info is very important to know what happened to this dog

[ladyjane]

I cannot believe this constant harping about medications that do not kill the amount of dogs you are suggesting. They do have good use in veterinary and human medicine. That is all I am going to say. No poll on YT is going to tell me anything about how to manage my pups. I have a vet, I read and I consult with my vet and also with specialists as indicated. I know the realities of side effects of meds and do not choose to play the blame game when one or two dogs or humans have problems. That is a major problem in society...everyone wants to blame. But, don't offer the meds and then the docs are wrong then, too. It never ends.

I am quite finished with this topic now.

[ladyjane]

As for the dog in this thread that died. The owner has not posted and we know nothing about what really happened.

It died from something...could be anything. I am not going to sit here and try to speculate if the vet gave and NSAID and if that killed the dog instantly which to me sounds bizarre.

I am thinking this was a very sick pupster .. and could have been anything .. perhaps a cardiac arrest? Who knows. Not one med I am quite sure unless it was some massive overdose...which again..highly unlikely. I consider this discussion a bit of a waste of time and I quite frankly don't have time to waste. I hope the OP finds a way to help console his/her friend .. very sad that the pupster passed.

[dwerten]

sorry it is a waste of your time

still would like to know this answer though as I sincerely want to know the answer

LJ did you give nsaids to your dogs on empty stomachs or to dogs with known liver disease or to dogs on steroids?

I also hope the op gives more information about this pup as sounds like she is looking for some answers as to why this pup died but we do need all the facts.

Society does not want to blame but they do want to know the facts and the truth.

[Ringo1]

OP, it is very nice that you want to help your friend. So many time, when a dog dies, no one offers sympathy or seems to care because it was 'just a dog'.

So I am sure that anything you do to help your friend will be greatly appreciated.

They do make special cards for the death of a dog . . I got one when my Casper died and I sooo appreciated that someone cared enough to send it.

Sorry for your friend's loss.

[Ellie May]

Interesting that this has come up again when we don't even know what went wrong in this situation...

NSAIDs are the post-op drug of choice for soft tissue surgery here (most noticabley, spays). Rimadyl and Metacam are often used.

Ellie had taken Metacam before we knew about her liver problem. She did just fine with it. After we found out she had high bile acids, her vet knew NSAIDs were no longer the drug of choice (I didn't say anything either). And when there are questions about drugs and her liver, she opens a book! Ellie took buprenorphine after her spay and did okay although don't think it was great pain control for her. That said, if Ellie had a very painful ortho procedure done and her vet(s) thought the only thing that would work well would be an NSAID and they felt that the benefit outweighed the risk, then I would allow it.

I will "not" have my dog in that much pain just b/c I'm worried about her liver. If something else works, great, but that isn't always the case. And I don't go for the dogs need to be in pain after surgery theory. I have some thoughts about that and I won't go into them here, but we'll just leave it at I strongly disagree. I don't think Tramadol is a stand alone ortho drug, so I'm sure there are cases where NSAIDs have to be given even when tehre is a liver problem. I would explain my concerns and let the vet decide. If I didn't trust my vet to decide after talking wtih them, then I'd be finding a new one.

There was a report put out about Rimadryl and there may be a slight increase in side effects than other NSAIDs. I wouldn't have a problem using it for a few days post-op although I'd choose something else if I was there while the vet was filling it. That would be for a healthy dog...

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Interesting that this has come up again when we don't even know what went wrong in this situation...

NSAIDs are the post-op drug of choice for soft tissue surgery here (most noticabley, spays). Rimadyl and Metacam are often used.

Ellie had taken Metacam before we knew about her liver problem. She did just fine with it. After we found out she had high bile acids, her vet knew NSAIDs were no longer the drug of choice (I didn't say anything either). And when there are questions about drugs and her liver, she opens a book! Ellie took buprenorphine after her spay and did okay although don't think it was great pain control for her. That said, if Ellie had a very painful ortho procedure done and her vet(s) thought the only thing that would work well would be an NSAID and they felt that the benefit outweighed the risk, then I would allow it.

I will "not" have my dog in that much pain just b/c I'm worried about her liver. If something else works, great, but that isn't always the case. And I don't go for the dogs need to be in pain after surgery theory. I have some thoughts about that and I won't go into them here, but we'll just leave it at I strongly disagree. I don't think Tramadol is a stand alone ortho drug, so I'm sure there are cases where NSAIDs have to be given even when tehre is a liver problem. I would explain my concerns and let the vet decide. If I didn't trust my vet to decide after talking wtih them, then I'd be finding a new one.

There was a report put out about Rimadryl and there may be a slight increase in side effects than other NSAIDs. I wouldn't have a problem using it for a few days post-op although I'd choose something else if I was there while the vet was filling it. That would be for a healthy dog...

C I consulted two bc orthos both said NO NSAIDS with liver disease dogs tramadol would be fine if she had surgery

C how do we do a poll as I want to know what the percentage of nsaids that are done after surgery as now my curiosity is way up

also op stated surgery then pain meds then death but we do need more info

I think it comes up bc I disagree with some on here in the use of nsaids after my dog was sick on metacam so that probably will never change - we all can agree to disagree and owners can get both perspectives

I agree no dog should be in pain but a sprain is not a reason to rush into using nsaids. DD was limping thursday night and friday she rested and saturday she rested and today is totally fine. I did not rush into using drugs even though i had tramadol here to use and ER said let her rest and if she was in pain today I would have used tramadol and taken her for xray tomorrow. Sometimes you just need to rest a dog like when you sprain your ankle. I had achilles rupture surgery and was cautious on using nsaids and pain meds a little pain is not going to kill you or your dog and resting an injury is key. If I walk too long my achilles hurts but i rest and do not run home to take an nsaid.

Due to the fact that drugs cause side effects they should be taken with caution knowing all the facts and doing what is safe.

I do loans and a client came in adimant he wanted a heloc for 100k and the reason is it saved his wife years ago as a doctor gave her two drugs that interacted and killed her liver within days and she needed a liver transplant and due to it being over thanksgiving weekend they could not get a hold of her insurance company and ucla would not put her on the list without 100,000 check so he used his equity line to get her on that liver transplant list that weekend until they could get a hold of her insurance company. She has had a liver transplant and now is on massive drugs for the rest of her life due to that one mistake and you know what he told me? I wish we would have read up on it before her taking it as it was all over the internet that those two drugs should not be mixed yet we trusted this doctor. That was a HUGE WAKE UP CALL for me. The doctor was sorry admitted to mistake but the DAMAGE was done.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by dwerten

Where did you read on the instructions that it says it is ok to give on empty stomach?

Most Vaccine and medication reactions are not reported sadly as I do not believe the vet has to report it do they? Are they really telling the owner - hey the drug i gave your dog caused the kidneys to fail so your dog died of renal failure? Or do they say I am so sorry your dog has renal failure? I think the latter of the two is probably the case and most pet owners are not educated to know the difference unless they stumble across it on the internet trying to find out why their two year old dog died of renal failure

i do not have drug inserts in my back pocket so i got this from the rimadyl and metacam websites.

How to give Rimadyl to your dog.
Rimadyl should be given according to your veterinarian’s instructions. Your veterinarian will tell you what amount of Rimadyl is right for your dog and for how long it should be given. Rimadyl should be given by mouth and may be given with or without food.

Q: Is it a preferred protocol to administer Metacam in the oral form after a meal due to the potential for general G.I. upset?
A: No, it does not matter. Metacam Oral Suspension can be administered either directly onto the food or into the mouth. For dogs less than 5 pounds, the dosing is direct from the bottle onto the food. The tip of the bottle has been designed and calibrated to deliver one drop per lb. A 4 lb. dog would receive 4 drops onto the food. If given directly into the mouth, it is not a requirement to provide food with the treatment.


--


All of the vets i have worked for do blood work before putting a dog on long term NSAID treatment and then do maintenance blood work checks to make sure everything is ok. I have seen ONE reaction to deramaxx that required hospitalization. The vet told the owner that the deramaxx could have been the culprit AND the vet got in touch with the drug company, all documents were provided and the drug company paid for treatment. The dog's symptoms (kidney problems) were reversed and the last i heard he is doing excellent.


I believe there are a lot of vets who do this as well, but since you seem to have no faith in them, i doubt you will see it this way.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kalina82

i do not have drug inserts in my back pocket so i got this from the rimadyl and metacam websites.

How to give Rimadyl to your dog.
Rimadyl should be given according to your veterinarian’s instructions. Your veterinarian will tell you what amount of Rimadyl is right for your dog and for how long it should be given. Rimadyl should be given by mouth and may be given with or without food.

Q: Is it a preferred protocol to administer Metacam in the oral form after a meal due to the potential for general G.I. upset?
A: No, it does not matter. Metacam Oral Suspension can be administered either directly onto the food or into the mouth. For dogs less than 5 pounds, the dosing is direct from the bottle onto the food. The tip of the bottle has been designed and calibrated to deliver one drop per lb. A 4 lb. dog would receive 4 drops onto the food. If given directly into the mouth, it is not a requirement to provide food with the treatment.


--


All of the vets i have worked for do blood work before putting a dog on long term NSAID treatment and then do maintenance blood work checks to make sure everything is ok. I have seen ONE reaction to deramaxx that required hospitalization. The vet told the owner that the deramaxx could have been the culprit AND the vet got in touch with the drug company, all documents were provided and the drug company paid for treatment. The dog's symptoms (kidney problems) were reversed and the last i heard he is doing excellent.


I believe there are a lot of vets who do this as well, but since you seem to have no faith in them, i doubt you will see it this way.

no need to have in back pocket it is on the internet under fda.gov

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM050394.pdf

It does not say to not give with food though it says can be given orally - no mention of with or without food other than where it states on food so it really is not clear yet warns against ulcers, intestinal bleeding and perforation. It also warns against liver disease and kidney disease dogs I believe.

No actually I have wonderful specialists i deal with that i cannot say enough nice things about. I have stated this over and over again. I just believe pet owners need to educate themselves and understand what is going on as dogs cannot talk like we humans can. We are their advocate.

also can answer the question for the below person of what pain medication is usually used for surgeries as you worked for an orthopedic

[Ellie May]

You can start a poll by going to that section, starting a new thread, titling it and typing a message, scrolling down and clicking the make it a poll option and that follow the steps. But I can already tell you that from what I've seen in person and on YT, if something is given, it is usually an NSAID after spay.

I wasn't talking about a little limp. I mean post ortho surgery. If an ortho surgeon thinks jsut Tramadol will work...fine. I just don't think all orthos see it that way and I'm not totally convinced that that is enough pain control. Actually, I think quite a few give Tramadol and an NSAID together.

I can only say what I would do for my dog.
We avoid NSAIDs if at all possible. If she was in pain and Tramadol or Fentanyl, etc. couldn't control it, then I would give the okay for an NSAID if vet thought it was best.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

You can start a poll by going to that section, starting a new thread, titling it and typing a message, scrolling down and clicking the make it a poll option and that follow the steps. But I can already tell you that from what I've seen in person and on YT, if something is given, it is usually an NSAID after spay.

I wasn't talking about a little limp. I mean post ortho surgery. If an ortho surgeon thinks jsut Tramadol will work...fine. I just don't think all orthos see it that way and I'm not totally convinced that that is enough pain control. Actually, I think quite a few give Tramadol and an NSAID together.

I can only say what I would do for my dog.
We avoid NSAIDs if at all possible. If she was in pain and Tramadol or Fentanyl, etc. couldn't control it, then I would give the okay for an NSAID if vet thought it was best.

I agree with you C and I believe ladymom is on the same page as well as the 3 of us deal with dogs with health issues and know when a dog gets out of balance that has health issues it is a NIGHTMARE.

Steroids are anti-inflammatory and due to dd being on steroids already for allergies having tramadol for pain was sufficient per orthos.

I asked the vet for tramadol but the vet said no she will be fine and i said i do not like nsaids and he said I should be afraid of nsaids and he wanted her on pepcid ac with the nsaid. He said if she vomitted to stop well she did and i never gave her a dose only he did and she was vomitting for 30 days straight it was a mess. Our regular vet wanted to treat her for an ulcer with 4 meds and it made me nervous as that was alot meds to counteract another med so i went to internal medicine specialist as i trust her 100% she is awesome and really knows her stuff. A vet on line I have become friends with who helps me alot too told me to soak her kibble for 30 days and that was what finally worked but she could not eat dry kibble without vomitting it up in 5 seconds after eating.

[ladyjane]

My point in all of this is that warnings to all pet owners in bold capital fonts tends to frighten them. That is just not what I feel should be done since the majority of dogs can safely take some of these meds. Taking the case of one dog or a handful is not scientific in any way. Even doing a poll on YT is not scientific! Research has BEEN done and these meds are safe to use as prescribed. One thing to educate, another to harp and frighten imho.

Sure it is good for people to know contraindications and side effects of ANY med...whether for them or their pets. We all should be educated consumers.

Just seems that the focus is never on the good that these meds do...only the bad things that "may" have happened to one or two dogs. I have a difficult time believing that one dose of an NSAID would cause the harm that is being suggested. I suppose anything is possible. But..hey you can give any med to a person or animal and it can be a problem. That does not make it a dangerous medication. Same thing goes with some foods. People and pets can have adverse reactions to foods. We still need to eat and feed out pets.

I have dealt with many dogs in my life...especially in the past few years. They had many different conditions and some could not take certain meds. That is just the way it is...but does not mean I could lump them with all dogs and say that what they cannot take applies to all dogs. I guess I am simply not an alarmist unless it must be! I tend to take illness very serious, but I do not overreact and freak out...that is just not good for me or the pups I care for.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My point in all of this is that warnings to all pet owners in bold capital fonts tends to frighten them. That is just not what I feel should be done since the majority of dogs can safely take some of these meds. Taking the case of one dog or a handful is not scientific in any way. Even doing a poll on YT is not scientific! Research has BEEN done and these meds are safe to use as prescribed. One thing to educate, another to harp and frighten imho.

Sure it is good for people to know contraindications and side effects of ANY med...whether for them or their pets. We all should be educated consumers.

Just seems that the focus is never on the good that these meds do...only the bad things that "may" have happened to one or two dogs. I have a difficult time believing that one dose of an NSAID would cause the harm that is being suggested. I suppose anything is possible. But..hey you can give any med to a person or animal and it can be a problem. That does not make it a dangerous medication. Same thing goes with some foods. People and pets can have adverse reactions to foods. We still need to eat and feed out pets.

I have dealt with many dogs in my life...especially in the past few years. They had many different conditions and some could not take certain meds. That is just the way it is...but does not mean I could lump them with all dogs and say that what they cannot take applies to all dogs. I guess I am simply not an alarmist unless it must be! I tend to take illness very serious, but I do not overreact and freak out...that is just not good for me or the pups I care for.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My point in all of this is that warnings to all pet owners in bold capital fonts tends to frighten them. That is just not what I feel should be done since the majority of dogs can safely take some of these meds. Taking the case of one dog or a handful is not scientific in any way. Even doing a poll on YT is not scientific! Research has BEEN done and these meds are safe to use as prescribed. One thing to educate, another to harp and frighten imho.

Sure it is good for people to know contraindications and side effects of ANY med...whether for them or their pets. We all should be educated consumers.

Just seems that the focus is never on the good that these meds do...only the bad things that "may" have happened to one or two dogs. I have a difficult time believing that one dose of an NSAID would cause the harm that is being suggested. I suppose anything is possible. But..hey you can give any med to a person or animal and it can be a problem. That does not make it a dangerous medication. Same thing goes with some foods. People and pets can have adverse reactions to foods. We still need to eat and feed out pets.

I have dealt with many dogs in my life...especially in the past few years. They had many different conditions and some could not take certain meds. That is just the way it is...but does not mean I could lump them with all dogs and say that what they cannot take applies to all dogs. I guess I am simply not an alarmist unless it must be! I tend to take illness very serious, but I do not overreact and freak out...that is just not good for me or the pups I care for.

exactly