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Old 11-09-2018, 05:04 AM   #1
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Default Alpha rolling.

For the record, I don't agree with this. I believe anything that breaks our precious babies isn't a good thing. Chewie is stubborn. She's dominant, and has gone after dogs three times her size- and has won. Each time. After careful deliberation, we'll be getting a little boy for a companion, instead of a girl.

On to why I said this. Chewie tried biting me once two years ago. I grabbed her chin, looked her directly in the eyes, and FORCED her to keep eye contact, and said "NO bite!" in a low voice with a growl in it. It worked. That hasn't stopped her from correcting my daughter (who, by the way, has done things to deserve it) or sometimes going after my husband. He finds it "cute" when she corrects my daughter. My daughter has a puncture wound that got infected. Obviously it was Chewie. I told Dan okay, since you were the one right there, do what I told you to do. Which was NO bite. Not ALPHA roll.

He did alpha roll. Pest control came over two hours later. The next day, my girl wasn't acting right. we had a vet consult and a discussion with pet poison control due to how she was showing symptoms of a very upset stomach. I figured out later that it was from stress. Chewie wouldn't leave my side the day before, even going so far as to curl up under my chest when I was writing something on the bed. Chewie is an independent little gal, so it was significant. I'm kicking myself for not understanding it was from the alpha roll the day before. Dan meant well. I know that, but I think this is barbaric and wanted tips, or really even comments about how my way is better. I don't want to see her react like this again. For the record, Dan is an absolute wreck and feels horribly.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:40 PM   #2
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What do you mean “alpha roll”?
Our little female stray we took in is VERY potected with my husband. She stays on his lap or right beside him anywhere in the house. When myself or our little male comes close to them she snaps and growls. If she’s on the floor and we get close to “Daddy” she will run after us growling.
I’m at my witts end on how to deal with this. My husband & I correct her in a non threatening way but not working. Our very well behaved little boy, Ruger is afraid of her & it breaks my heart that we can’t have a 2 Yorkie happy home. They are both about the same age, but we have no clue what her previous life was like. We just had her spayed, maybe that will help??
Good luck with your situation. Let me know what works.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:50 PM   #3
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What do you mean “alpha roll”?
Our little female stray we took in is VERY potected with my husband. She stays on his lap or right beside him anywhere in the house. When myself or our little male comes close to them she snaps and growls. If she’s on the floor and we get close to “Daddy” she will run after us growling.
I’m at my witts end on how to deal with this. My husband & I correct her in a non threatening way but not working. Our very well behaved little boy, Ruger is afraid of her & it breaks my heart that we can’t have a 2 Yorkie happy home. They are both about the same age, but we have no clue what her previous life was like. We just had her spayed, maybe that will help??
Good luck with your situation. Let me know what works.

He forced her to roll over and held her down. It's a barbaric practice. The no bite worked very well for me and I did it immediately after she tried as I said at barely a year. My daughter doesn't do it with enough authority, so she'll still bite. So, he basically forced her on her back to show her belly while he said no bite.

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this as well. Chewie does what she did for two reasons, if she's picked up when she's guarding my feet--she's obsessed with my feet in particular-- or a special bone. Each time if she's had it taken away for growling she'll attempt to bite my husband and DOES bite my daughter. That's what happened the other day, only this time, she bit her very hard.

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Old 11-09-2018, 03:35 PM   #4
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He forced her to roll over and held her down. It's a barbaric practice. The no bite worked very well for me and I did it immediately after she tried as I said at barely a year. My daughter doesn't do it with enough authority, so she'll still bite. So, he basically forced her on her back to show her belly while he said no bite.

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this as well. Chewie does what she did for two reasons, if she's picked up when she's guarding my feet--she's obsessed with my feet in particular-- or a special bone. Each time if she's had it taken away for growling she'll attempt to bite my husband and DOES bite my daughter. That's what happened the other day, only this time, she bit her very hard.
Oh I see. Yes, my husband has done this with Skye also. I didn’t know what it was called. He doesn’t do it all the time. Sometimes he just touches her with a firm hand. Holds his hand on her till she stops. You know my breeder with our Ruger did this alpha roll thing with Ruger when Ruger would put his teeth on him. Puppies play very hard with their sharp teeth. We visited our Ruger at the breeder every week till he was ready to come home. This roll thing did seem to calm Ruger. When we brought him home we never used this technique. Hopefully you & I both can resolve this behavior.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:32 PM   #5
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Considering the whole alpha thing has been debunked I’m not sure why anyone would even do the alpha roll. Staring her directly in the eyes is also challenging her and just as bad if not worse. If she attacks other dogs I don’t think it’s a good idea to purposefully bring another dog into that. I think it will end very badly. Some dogs are just meant to be only dogs.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:35 PM   #6
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He forced her to roll over and held her down. It's a barbaric practice. The no bite worked very well for me and I did it immediately after she tried as I said at barely a year. My daughter doesn't do it with enough authority, so she'll still bite. So, he basically forced her on her back to show her belly while he said no bite.

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this as well. Chewie does what she did for two reasons, if she's picked up when she's guarding my feet--she's obsessed with my feet in particular-- or a special bone. Each time if she's had it taken away for growling she'll attempt to bite my husband and DOES bite my daughter. That's what happened the other day, only this time, she bit her very hard.
You need to get a trainer or behavioralist involved in my opinion. Generally as puppies you should mess with them with food and bones so they don’t become that way.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:57 PM   #7
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Considering the whole alpha thing has been debunked I’m not sure why anyone would even do the alpha roll. Staring her directly in the eyes is also challenging her and just as bad if not worse. If she attacks other dogs I don’t think it’s a good idea to purposefully bring another dog into that. I think it will end very badly. Some dogs are just meant to be only dogs.
She doesn't attack other dogs. It's happened 3 times. Once when she was a puppy, about four months old. Another time she got uppity with a dog who cowered- no biting. The last was when the same dog as a puppy's owner told his dog (twice her size) to "Get her." both dogs were female. No biting, but the dogs did cower.

Staring her in her eyes worked for me and it's what her trainer suggested. I understand you have strong opinions, and I respect those, but Myra's suggestion with the no bite was spot on in Chewie's case. She has a little pack she sees every sunday and no biting or attacking has ever happened.

And, she does have a trainer. No anger on my end, so I want to be sure you understand that. Myra was the one who told my daughter to do it and mean it. Daughter doesn't. She wants to hold the bone, and she'll cower when Chewie growls, so the biting continuously happens. Usually they are nips. This time, my husband took it from her and she reacted. Myra has been called, but all that's been told to her is, I told you a lot to NOT let her think she's in charge. Husband is in the wrong for not doing anything about it until it got this bad. Alpha roll definitely has been debunked, and it's why I'm so upset about it.

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Old 11-09-2018, 06:08 PM   #8
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Oh I see. Yes, my husband has done this with Skye also. I didn’t know what it was called. He doesn’t do it all the time. Sometimes he just touches her with a firm hand. Holds his hand on her till she stops. You know my breeder with our Ruger did this alpha roll thing with Ruger when Ruger would put his teeth on him. Puppies play very hard with their sharp teeth. We visited our Ruger at the breeder every week till he was ready to come home. This roll thing did seem to calm Ruger. When we brought him home we never used this technique. Hopefully you & I both can resolve this behavior.
Chewie's Trainer Myra is a firm believer in making the dog understand there is NO fear or hesitation on your end. I know it's difficult. My daughter is only 15, and she's afraid. It's not easy for her to do that. Even as an adult, it's hard. It hurts me to see Chewie react how she did. I told Dan when I calmed down that Chewie is a toddler. She's got the mentality of a three year old. You can't DO that and expect good results. When chewie did that with all of her special toys, Myra was called in. She saw my posture and told me, you have to MEAN it. You have to let her know YOU are in charge. So, the next time she got uppity and tried the growling and chasing me off, I grabbed her by her beard gently and said, NO bite. When Chewie tried to growl and chase Elina off when I passed her over, I straightened my posture, and firmly said, NO. It worked again. Now with the bone incident the ONE time she snapped, It worked. It had to be done quickly, efficiently, and eye contact is essential. I didn't maintain it, but I let her know that I wasn't going to drop my eyes until I had her attention. These are all things that worked for me. The problem is it's not consistent in this house. Myra has told them, consistency is the key. Like toddlers, they need boundaries. I am SO sorry you are dealing with so much aggression!!!
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Old 11-09-2018, 07:11 PM   #9
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She doesn't attack other dogs. It's happened 3 times. Once when she was a puppy, about four months old. Another time she got uppity with a dog who cowered- no biting. The last was when the same dog as a puppy's owner told his dog (twice her size) to "Get her." both dogs were female. No biting, but the dogs did cower.

Staring her in her eyes worked for me and it's what her trainer suggested. I understand you have strong opinions, and I respect those, but Myra's suggestion with the no bite was spot on in Chewie's case. She has a little pack she sees every sunday and no biting or attacking has ever happened.

And, she does have a trainer. No anger on my end, so I want to be sure you understand that. Myra was the one who told my daughter to do it and mean it. Daughter doesn't. She wants to hold the bone, and she'll cower when Chewie growls, so the biting continuously happens. Usually they are nips. This time, my husband took it from her and she reacted. Myra has been called, but all that's been told to her is, I told you a lot to NOT let her think she's in charge. Husband is in the wrong for not doing anything about it until it got this bad. Alpha roll definitely has been debunked, and it's why I'm so upset about it.
The eye staring is also to show dominance/alpha over the dog and all dominance/alpha things have been debunked because dogs can not see a human as an alpha. You are challenging her and it’s not good to stare in her eyes. I encourage you to do some serious research on it. https://www.dogtrainingnation.com/do...g-eye-contact/
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:32 PM   #10
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Even wolf pack leaders in the wild don't alpha roll their subservient pack members so where this idea came from as a tool in dog training, who knows. Subservient wolf/dog pack members voluntarily roll on their backs, expose the abdomen to curry favor, show subjugation but the pack leader never does it! I mean, he has no hands so how would he!

So the dog being 'alpha rolled' by a human gets no message other than his human is dominating him(dominating behavior is a rude, humiliating thing to do in dog culture); and he has little idea why other than to cause fear-inducing subjugation, loss of trust. 'Alpha rolling' is totally counter-productive to positive training, team-building, inducing trust and teaches the dog only fear of the dominating, rude human. Primitive trainers/dog handlers are the only ones still using it, rather than training the dog in the way he should behave with a upbeat, fun training program using positive reinforcement treat/favorite toy/pat when he obeys your request or command. Dogs love to 'win' by getting it right, work hard to do that for their leader.

Alpha rolling is some archaic, power-hungry trainer's idea of how to show the dog who's boss. Well, if a handler is really boss, he never need to roll the dog to prove it - dogs inherently recognize leadership. Dogs with true leaders for handlers/trainers/guardians happily obey to 'win' their approval and their treat/toy 'paycheck'. Dogs are just like us, want a 'pay check' and a little encouragement for a good work session. Dogs will do anything to win the approval of a true leader. Dogs ever live to please us.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:02 AM   #11
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The eye staring is also to show dominance/alpha over the dog and all dominance/alpha things have been debunked because dogs can not see a human as an alpha. You are challenging her and it’s not good to stare in her eyes. I encourage you to do some serious research on it. https://www.dogtrainingnation.com/do...g-eye-contact/
I have. It's what worked for me. Myra is amazing, and watching her with any animal is nothing short of astounding. My eye staring was exactly as Myra told me, make sure you have her attention, firmly say it, and you'll see a huge difference. I did. I'm here to see if there is anything that can be salvaged as far as my husband and my daughter.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:12 AM   #12
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Even wolf pack leaders in the wild don't alpha roll their subservient pack members so where this idea came from as a tool in dog training, who knows. Subservient wolf/dog pack members voluntarily roll on their backs, expose the abdomen to curry favor, show subjugation but the pack leader never does it! I mean, he has no hands so how would he!

So the dog being 'alpha rolled' by a human gets no message other than his human is dominating him(dominating behavior is a rude, humiliating thing to do in dog culture); and he has little idea why other than to cause fear-inducing subjugation, loss of trust. 'Alpha rolling' is totally counter-productive to positive training, team-building, inducing trust and teaches the dog only fear of the dominating, rude human. Primitive trainers/dog handlers are the only ones still using it, rather than training the dog in the way he should behave with a upbeat, fun training program using positive reinforcement treat/favorite toy/pat when he obeys your request or command. Dogs love to 'win' by getting it right, work hard to do that for their leader.

Alpha rolling is some archaic, power-hungry trainer's idea of how to show the dog who's boss. Well, if a handler is really boss, he never need to roll the dog to prove it - dogs inherently recognize leadership. Dogs with true leaders for handlers/trainers/guardians happily obey to 'win' their approval and their treat/toy 'paycheck'. Dogs are just like us, want a 'pay check' and a little encouragement for a good work session. Dogs will do anything to win the approval of a true leader. Dogs ever live to please us.

Jilly, THANK YOU!!! Myra certainly did NOT tell Dan to do that. it was that dog whisperer nonsense. I find what that man does to be tremendously barbaric. I happen to observe my girl being tremendously upset when her pack is gone. Every Wednesday, my husband leaves (he works from home) and my daughter of course goes off to school. My girl is absolutely heartbroken. I'm told when I leave she won't leave the (before pillows, now it's the love sac) spot by the door until I come home. This is exactly why I can't see that just because a camp states dogs don't think in pack terms is true. I've seen with my own eyes that that they do, in fact, retain that behavior. The problem is how we approach it. Husband gets upset (working from home) when she barks. I again and again remind him, that's her JOB. Barking is perfectly fine!!! Frantic scream barking? No, not okay, that's fine to reprimand her for. But barking? Absolutely not okay to say no. She's a dog.... not a human. If she wants something, I'm the one she comes to. Wants to play and "Daddy" and "sissy" ignore her? Mama is the one to come to. This happens for a variety of things. I hear a soft "mmmph!" I look, and there is Chewie pointing at me and wagging her tail. They can communicate quite well. I once watched her glare wickedly at a vet, and look to me for confirmation. I made eye contact, looked away, and shook my head and she stopped with the lunge. Only time I've ever seen her do that.. and he very definitely deserved it. Saying to a sick dog come here little nugget and stabbing her with a needle isn't okay, and she had a right to be angry. These are smart little guys, but they, again, aren't PEOPLE. They think and approach things differently.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:57 AM   #13
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When training a dog for any command it absolutely must be a team effort. What ever method, word, phrase you use on Chewy, Dan and Elina absolutely must use the same method. Chewy knows Elina is afraid of her dogs can sense that and reason Chewy gets aggressive with her. Maybe Myra should work with Elina, in order to train a dog the owner must be trained first. Elina at 15 knows how to be firm, would she willing get into a strangers car.......NO......

Short story, I LOVE dogs, all dogs and have no fear of them, some years back when I was camping I met ppl with the two best trained Rotties I have come across. One was huge at 90 pounds the other was 45 pounds. The 90 Lb one scared the crap outta me, his head was as big as a black bear. Because I was so afraid of his hugeness I would not go near him even tho I knew and saw how well behaved he was. I felt if that dog sensed my fear he "may" have tried to harm me, I didn't want this dog to get punished or reprimanded because of me. It took one year for me to lose that fear and be able to pet that dog who was a big love bug.

Your daughter cannot back down from Chewy, she has to be strong and firm with her and show no fear. Trainers work with ppl so they can work with their dogs, trainers teach us the tools we need to train our dogs, perhaps Myra can work with Elina to give her the confidence she needs to loose her fear of Chewy. This cannot be comfortable for your daughter.
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